Which is covered by the Attribute-1 Skill Test normally used for Defaulting. Don't see any problems with that. Which is why the Defaulting rules are there, after all. As I said, I have no real issues with your solution. It only adds 1 Dice to the role, after all. I just do not use that. I stick with the rules for defaulting.

Okay, but I also have a Logic 1 troll running around in my game. This was against my better judgement: the character was designed by a person no longer allowed at my table, and the player has special needs, so he didn't fully understand how badly he was gimping his character. But he was convinced that trading mental stats for Body was the way to go. He's learned some since; but technically speaking, he can't even roll to find the nearest bathroom. That's simply not right: even Logic 1 characters, crippled as they are, should know some things without needing a specific skill.

Logic 1. The character has the shortest attention span you can imagine, short of brain trauma or disease. When he wake up in the morning, he has a hard time remembering what was on the evening news yesterday, often because he don't care (he would have invested some karma in a knowledge skills otherwise). Maybe he'd get a bonus to remember the commercials. The only "knowledge" he has are related to his job, and actually are Active Skills. To find the bathrooms, he should rely on a Memory Test (Logic+Willpower) if he ever came there, or an English Test (no test since rating is "N") to read the signs on every door and understand its meaning. I would consider standard pictographs as a Native language skill to anyone raised in a modern country.

I was wondering, how many people know what happened on Dealey Plaza (but to be fair, Dunkelzahn's death is a lot more recent events to SR characters) ?

On the original topic, you may take a look at Universal Decimal Classification, or Dewey Decimal System, or Library of Congress Classification. They have yet to include magic...

Logic of 1 is indeed a mental cripple. And he has a Willpower and Charisma of 1, to boot. I could not convince this player that this was a severely gimped build; his special needs make him hard to convince. That said, it seems unfair to require him to make more mental tests than someone with a 2 or 3 in their mental stats. Even requiring a memory test is bad, since there's a good chance he'll critically botch it, and be unable to find his way to the restroom.

But even for a severely mentally disabled individual, there's some things they should know without requiring a skill. There should be no chance of him critically botching when he ties his shoes. Heck, the player has special needs, and he knows a lot of random tidbits that shouldn't even be lumped into a knowledge skill. For example, no SR4.5 character I've ever seen has UCAS politics on their knowledge list, but they can all name a couple of Presidents. By going straight Logic, as opposed to defaulting, this troll actually is allowed to know basic, everyday things. For example, he remembers where the local Stuffer Shack is, the names of his friends, and so on and so forth. (The player is indeed learning, for the record: he's raising his Willpower and Charisma, and is working on Logic.)

BTW: Dewey Decimal system does have a classification for magic. It's under 110, for Metaphysics. Yes, I used to volunteer in a library.

The other problem is this: if the Troll has to make a logic+willpower test to find the nearest bathroom, then Joe Average should too. But Joe Average with 6 dice on that test has about a 9% chance of failing. Do you really think that an average person has almost a 10% chance of failing to find a bathroom? Really? And if it's because the troll has 0 dice on defaulted Knowledge: Where The Bathroom Is At tests, then Joe Average also has a 45% chance of failing that one. I'm pretty sure an average person can find a bathroom more often than THAT.

I would argue that the answer here is pretty simple: the troll only has to roll when you'd make anyone else roll. If you make everyone roll .Logic-1 to find bathrooms than the troll will indeed have trouble finding bathrooms, but really I'd rather spend my time doing other things that playing Shadowrestroom

In SR3 I think there was an optional chargen rule (at least, I don't think it was a house-rule) that having an Active skill at a certain rank granted for free the associated Background Knowledge skill at Active rank -3. This could then be raised (if desired) independently from that rank by spending build points. The philosophy was that training an Active skill to a high rating is accompanied by study of the theory or increased awareness of the field.

The actual solution is: Don't take Logic at 1, but that's beside the point.

I try to only make players roll when it's significant. However, sometimes some stuff might come up that's simply not covered under their Knowledge skills. Making them default to something that should be common knowledge seems excessive to me; a roll at straight Logic is enough. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? If it's in your neighborhood, you shouldn't need to take Area Knowledge: My Own Backyard to have a chance to find it. And for a evening walk, I'd just let the players have it. But if they're running out of ammo and need reloads in a hurry, Stuffer Shack might be the quickest place to go. The troll should have a chance to find it, just like everyone else.

The actual Solution is: Don't make them roll for stuff that is of no consequence...

As for your example of the Stuffer Shack. Use your Comlink. Nearest one will pop up in your window, and give you instructions on how to get there. What is so hard about that. You can do that today even.

If you are making them roll for every little thing that may have an impact; that is where you are making your mistake. Your Comlink will serve to identify 99% of the things you want in your neighborhood.

Didn't I mention: Logic of 1.

He has no Computer or Data Search skill either. Or a Browse program. Which means, if he tries to default, he actually has less of a dice pool than if I made him roll a defaulted Knowledge check. He knows how to voice dial, and that's about it. Actually trying to dial up the location of the nearest ammo store, while under fire, is an example of a good time to roll.

The point is, even as crippled as he is, he should know some things without investing in a knowledge skill. He should not get lost jandering to the local Stuffer Shack.

With a Logic of 1, a fellow might get lost in his own museum!

If he has a comlink, it has Browse 1.

And with no Data Search skill, his dice pool is still 0. He can't even use it unless I handwave it.

Again, why are you making him make a Data Search Roll? He asks his comlink, and it outputs a Destination. Are you seriously telling me that you make a character actually make a roll to find a Soykaf shop or Azmart? Really? This falls into the category if irrelevant information. Why are you having your players make a roll for irrelevant information?

I'm pretty sure if you want that level of detail on any neighbourhood, you need a mapsoft.


Actually, it is Scan 1 that comes for free. Browse has to be purchased seperately.

In 90 seconds I was unable to locate a reference for either (too lazy right now, and it's too unimportant) so I'm going to let it drop.

Who needs the level of detail at the Map level? Type in what you want, the device outputs 10 locations. As I indicated, you can do that, even today, and in environments that you have absolutely no clue about.

A Mapsoft would work as well, but it is not really necessary. Especially since your vehicle can go there automatically with a spoken command and no skill.

I feel like an important thing was over looked in this conversation-

Q: Where does a maxed out physical attribute Troll pee?

A: ANYWHERE HE WANTS.





I like that rule

Only under stress, or under fire. Orr when it's funny.

But if it ever becomes relevant, there's just some things anyone should know, without a defaulting penalty, no matter what their Logic is. Knowledge skills does not adequately cover it.

I can see your argument. Like Usual, We see things a bit differently in the end. No worries though, it all works out.

If I ever come across a GM that would make me roll to find a bathroom, the next character i make for him/her would have 6 ranks in Knowledge:Life Lessons

The point is, defaulting to knowledge skills does not adequately model what people really should know. Your method doesn't work out, since the troll wouldn't be able to find his local Stuffer Shack, even with a commlink with GPS.


Life lesson: never make a troll with willpower 1. Your comment has inspired me: at some point during a battle, a mage is going to cast Influence on him, and he has to find the bathroom. His successes determine how long it takes to find one.

But this is where you and I would disagree. I would never require a roll for such things in the first place, where apparently, you would. And my example WOULD work out, because there is absolutely no need for a Roll to begin with. Especially since all the Logic 1 Troll would have to do is TELL HIS CAR to take him there. Done.

Knowledge skills are for things that you specifically concentrate upon in your life. I can guarantee, I do not concentrate on where my Local Grocery Store is located. That falls into the realm of knowledge that requires no skill, and no roll.

Remember, Logic 1 IS NOT NON-FUNCTIONAL. It DOES NOT denote someone with Mental Retardation. That requires other Negative Qualities, that could apply regardless of whether the Logic Attribute was a 1 or 7. I have known fully functional people that I would stat at a Logic of 1. They are still functional.

I would if it matters. Or if it's funny. Humor is a big part of my game.

But according to RAW, he can't even do that. He's got no Pilot skill, so he has to default to something. Gridguide would be nice, except his history has him living in the Barrens, where there is no Gridguide. Technically speaking, he cannot do anything that requires a default to Logic, which includes just about every knowledge skill, including Area Knowledge.

But like I said: suppose some crafty mage casts Influence on him, to make him go to the restroom? With a willpower of 1, the mage will get a critical success, so the troll will need to find a bathroom in a big hurry. Suddenly being able to find a restroom *matters*. You can swap this with any other logic-linked roll; but finding the bathroom illustrates the point: by your rules (defaulting) he can't even find the bathroom. At least under my Common Knowledge houserule, he has a chance.

You realize that Driving 0 is enough to actually drive a car, right? It just means that if you're forced to make any kind of test to avoid crashing or doing a complex maneuver (more than shifting lanes) you fail. You can still get from Point A to Point B safely 99% of the time (it's that 1% or less time where that jackass cuts you off and you don't slam on the breaks soon enough to avoid him that you have to worry about).

Nitpick: You default to Program-1 on the matrix, not Skill, because you default to Attribute and Program replaces Attribute.
See FAQ for details.


that being said, logic 1 still sucks.

I'm aware of that. Since he has no Program, his default is still a -1. So, no, he can't use Google 2070 on his commlink according to RAW.

Interesting all this anti-LOG 1 bias, especially considering how many Dumpshockers consider dumpstating STR 1 a clever thing to do. LOG 1 ain't brainless drooling imbecile, just as STR 1 characters ain't puny weaklings who can't lift anything heavier than a light pistol without breaking a sweat.

Considering how intuitive use of 2011 smartphones can be, your LOG 1 character shouldn't have a problem working the GPS on his 2071 commlink. RAW only requires rolls for difficult tasks or tasks under duress. As stated above, a REA 1 character with no skill can still drive a car, they'd just better hope they don't have to make a crash test during the drive. A CHR 1 character with no ettiquette skill can still order a drink in a bar. RAW thankfully does not try and bog things down by making characters roll for doing everyday tasks.

Your STR 1 no Climbing skill character can still get over a waist high wall, although they may take more time than everyone else and look rather awkward doing so. Under enemy fire is another thing entirely, and the poor mook is likely to get shot down as he/she tries to straddle the obstacle. In a similar way, your LOG 1 character can find the nearest Stuffer Shack or public toilet under normal circumstances. But when the lead's flying, panic might set in and he/she might make the wrong turn etc.

The amount of duress required varies considerably, from GM to GM. Also, there's just some things characters should know, even if they haven't invested in the appropriate Knowledge skills. I haven't seen anyone take Knowledge: UCAS politics, but the characters should be able to say who the UCAS president is.

Logic 1 and willpower 1?
hum right... raise your lifestyle by 20%. Yes, you send money to televangelists.

By 50%: with 2 dice for memory tests you regularly critical glitches and forget you sent the money.

Interesting as I have a character with just that Skill.
And you are correct, to a degree. There are things a character should know without a relevant Knowledge Skill. These things are not represented by any rolls at all, as far as I can see in game. My question is still... Why do you want to represent them with such?

"Dunkie's still president, right?"

Because sometimes it does matter. A character without Area Background should still be able to find his way around his own home, even if he's under fire. Sometimes knowing things matter, like knowing that walking up to the Dunkelzahn Rift, sticking your arm through, and waggling your fingers at yourself is A Bad Idea. (The player, as I mentioned, is special needs: I give him the Common Sense Plus edge, for free, as often as I can.)

And there are things that sometimes pop up. For example, who is the current US vice-president? According to Senate.gov, most Americans can't answer that. But if you wanted to impress the players with how powerful the people they're dealing with really are, linking things to a vice-presidential visit might be a good plot device. Recognizing a famous star is another thing.

The whole reason we have Knowledge skills is because sometimes knowing things matter. If you're having players roll Knowledge checks *at all*, then you're representing this fact in game. If you're having players roll defaulted Knowledge checks, then you're recognizing the fact that there are some things players should know, without a relevant Knowledge check. To be very specific here, that's what I'm arguing against: a defaulting penalty on common knowledge. Defaulting shouldn't be necessary for some things; it renders certain characters utterly unable to find the bathroom.

I had the same thought, then i went "i think it's ..."

Wouldn't he just *look* for the bathroom? Most people don't know where they are in a given unfamiliar building. They wander around until they find them, aided perhaps by a general idea of where bathrooms tend to be (maybe an architecture Know), and of course by looking for signs (not to mention the obvious commlink/AR point, already mentioned). Or by simply asking someone. It's not a Knowledge skill at all.

I know it's just an example, and the skill ranks system is indeed crazy (at the low end, and the high end). It's just not a good example.

I have to agree with this sentiment. I tend to "Just Look" for such things in an unfamiliar building. Having to roll a knowledge check for something that cannot possibly be known unless you were the guy who designed the building, or you are the guy who downloads building schematics just to study, seems like a waste of game time to me. It is not a skill, nor should it be; and it does not need a general Knowledge Check, nor should it require one.

As Yerameyahu indicated, it is a bad example.

As for the question: Who is the Vice President? Seems like a good place for a Politics skill check, or a Defaulted general knowledge check. The problem with your assumptions, Cain, is that Common Knowledge is generally not, to someone. Thus the Defaulting Skill Check. By your own admission, most Americans DO NOT KNOW WHO THE VP IS. Seems like you are making my point for me. Why should this be COMMON KNOWLEDGE, if it is really not all that common?

Defaulting works. And in the End, there are just some things that should never require a roll. Why? Because they are Common Knowledge.

Anyways...

To be fair, the VP really is not going to have a place in American minds, unless something happens to the President, or he goes and shoots people while turkey hunting

Point of order: Many knowledge skills link to intuition, and I'd rule that figuring out where the bathroom is comes from intuition. It's really easy to guess where a bathroom will be located in any given locale.

Finding the Bathroom for this character should definitely be the best definition of 'Street' knowledge you can find.
Not just for this character either. Come on! It's the barrens. Who's going to stop you from whizzing against a wall/tree/(burnt out husk of a) car?

Free Toxic Spirits that live in those items?

When a burnt out husk of a car stands up and starts peeing on you, then lights a match and sets you on fire with it, people take notice and don't pee there.

I think I have a new run idea...

Penis go boom.

I seem to give so many of those. Maybe I should do some writing or something...Ah Minmax the Warrior... Developing an actual character nicely!

This helped me think of him in a better light, however.

That's why I like the one...knife? brass knuckles? ring? that heals people when you punch them.

Defaulting doesn't work, because as you pointed out, there's some things people should know. Not all pieces of common knowledge are Common, as the vice-president example shows. Some things matter. And just because you have to default, shouldn't make it impossible to know common things.

Ah here it is:

Is there any reason not to use this for knowledge skills?

Because Cain wants everyone with a Logic of 1 to actually roll (and have a chance of Critically Glitching) to find a Bathroom in extremis? Personally, those types of things should NEVER call for a roll. If it is Common Knowledge, it is assumed to be known, after all. At which point, no roll should ever be required.

Sometimes it matters. And if it does, people with a Logic of 1 should have a chance.

Recently, someone asked my players the VP question as an example. For some odd reason, it was the troll's player (who is special needs) who came up with the right answer: Biden. Now, this guy might charitably be given a Logic of 1; his schooling and ability to make conclusions is decidedly lacking. He doesn't remember who was President when he was born, but he was the one who came up with the correct answer. (He can also do Imperial to Metric conversions in his head, a trick I never mastered.)

By *your* rules, it's either yes or no. The GM is sole arbiter of what a player character knows. You're essentially committing an either/or fallacy: there are situations in between.