I have a brewing situation. PCs are stuck in a traffic jam and the bad guys are closing fast on motorbikes. They have proposed hacking the nodes of cars to get them to ram the bikers (rather than get caught on camera in a firefight!)
How hard should this be? Most of the cars will be electric on grid guide (which should be a difficult/very hard hacking task?!?). I guess they’d have to override the auto pilots and tell them to get off the road (simulated emergency vehicle coming through or something like that?!?). Would anti-collision software in the auto pilots stop them ramming the bikers?
It might be easier to hack the nodes of the bikes assuming they aren’t hidden? Or even if they are?
Any ideas welcome!
Thanks
Full Version: Hacking a traffic jam
I see a few ways to hack myself out of that situation. The easiest would be to Spoof an emergency vehicle, sending a "clear the road" signal to all the vehicles or traffic/grid guide nodes in the area. However, as it's only a simple Spoofed command and not a true Exploit, it's only a matter of time before some grid guide security spider takes a look at the commotion on a security camera an shuts the whole thing down.
As for hacking the cars and motorbikes, you can assume they have a device rating of 3 (right, guys? it's 5 or 6 for military, 4 for top of the line vehicles, and 2 or 1 for jalopies). That's pretty easy to overcome for a hacker, but if the bad guys are smart, their bikes will be at least slaved to their commlinks, adding one more step to overcome. The same goes for the cars driven by security conscious drivers.
Once past the firewall and inside the node, the hacker only has to locate the Pilot program with Matrix Perception, and then exploit the program or even crash it. To simply disable anti-crash settings, I'd call for a Hacking+Exploit with a threshold of the Pilot's rating.
As for hacking the cars and motorbikes, you can assume they have a device rating of 3 (right, guys? it's 5 or 6 for military, 4 for top of the line vehicles, and 2 or 1 for jalopies). That's pretty easy to overcome for a hacker, but if the bad guys are smart, their bikes will be at least slaved to their commlinks, adding one more step to overcome. The same goes for the cars driven by security conscious drivers.
Once past the firewall and inside the node, the hacker only has to locate the Pilot program with Matrix Perception, and then exploit the program or even crash it. To simply disable anti-crash settings, I'd call for a Hacking+Exploit with a threshold of the Pilot's rating.
Unwired (or is it Arsenal?) leaves the security of the GridGuide by having Jackpointers say both that it's easy and hard to hack.
Another solution would be to hack the car to control them but you'll probably have to override the GridGuide connection and/or the vehicle Pilot so it doesn't say "we're pretty sure you don't want to do that so we're preventing you from doing it".
Or they could Spoof a command from the GridGuide, that should override most vehicle's Pilots.
Another solution would be to hack the car to control them but you'll probably have to override the GridGuide connection and/or the vehicle Pilot so it doesn't say "we're pretty sure you don't want to do that so we're preventing you from doing it".
Or they could Spoof a command from the GridGuide, that should override most vehicle's Pilots.
Hacking individual cars should be relatively easy, they would likely need at least security level access to override grid guide ( +3 to hacking threshhold ) from there they'd likely need to actively do a command + pilot ground craft test on the targeted car for pass they wanted to keep it pulled away from grid guides influence. Admin level access could likely let them turn off grid guide access entirely and then they could have multiple cars ready to go.
Hacking grid guide itself should be moderately hard, within the realm of possibility but likely not something you want to do mid firefight, I'd give the system about an 8 firewall (for the record this is houserule territory, I let big nexi have 8 response pretty easily) and then kind of go from there.
Hacking grid guide itself should be moderately hard, within the realm of possibility but likely not something you want to do mid firefight, I'd give the system about an 8 firewall (for the record this is houserule territory, I let big nexi have 8 response pretty easily) and then kind of go from there.
First they need an access ID authorized to give movement controls to the car. This may be the driver, it may be grid guide, it may not exist (I don’t know how the average wageslave drives to work). Then they spoof the car “Ram X”. Problem solved. Even low speed collisions are fairly dangerous, and it is worse if the motorcycles are moving at high speed.
I’d suggest spoofing because this seems like a simple order for the car, and it makes the question of slaving moot.
I’d suggest spoofing because this seems like a simple order for the car, and it makes the question of slaving moot.
You can also block the road instead of trying to ram the bikes. The good point is a single truck would do.
Thoughts. Much of them not RAW.
You need to decide if the pilot is slaved to Grid Guide or if Grid Guide is a data feed to the pilot software.
If the pilot is slaved then hacking grid guide means you own all the cars on grid guide. Personally, I don't recommend this because it makes grid guide the ultimate target. Even spoofing grid guide is incredibly powerful. For the players that either means spoof every round they want to attempt to drive a vehicle or hack the grid guide on the fly, login, and order any car around while defending themselves from whatever defends the grid guide.
If the pilot uses grid guide as a feed, then taking over the actual vehicle and driving it is your best bet. There is no parent niode to spoof. On the plus side to this, the car is most likely an active node, so there is no need to do a detect hidden action. All you should need to do is Hacking-On-The-Fly, Log-In, and then attempt to drive the car, defending yourself against whatever IC capabilities the GM gives the pilot program.
In both cases, turns and IP work against the hacker. You're still stuck with messing with a single car at a time for a limited amount of time. Having the hacker take out multiple bikes is going to take time AND attract attention. Having the hacker take out a single bike is very doable.
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Alternative plan (this works with both interpretations, though it is better with the slave option): Hack the grid guide for admin (complete with difficulties), have the driver subscribe you car to the grid guide, have the hacker tell the grid guide you're a firetruck. Then start telling it all the cars between you and the bikers are police vehicles. Every round you can continue to be the firetruck (not get kicked out) and get another cop car playing intercept on the bikers increases you chance of getting out of there.
Note that the big difference here is that you are NOT attempting to control the actions of the cars. You're letting the grid guide control the actions of the cars (something it can do better than you) based on bad information (thinking they're cop cars). This basically means putting the outcome in the hands of the GM in the hopes of a better result.
You need to decide if the pilot is slaved to Grid Guide or if Grid Guide is a data feed to the pilot software.
If the pilot is slaved then hacking grid guide means you own all the cars on grid guide. Personally, I don't recommend this because it makes grid guide the ultimate target. Even spoofing grid guide is incredibly powerful. For the players that either means spoof every round they want to attempt to drive a vehicle or hack the grid guide on the fly, login, and order any car around while defending themselves from whatever defends the grid guide.
If the pilot uses grid guide as a feed, then taking over the actual vehicle and driving it is your best bet. There is no parent niode to spoof. On the plus side to this, the car is most likely an active node, so there is no need to do a detect hidden action. All you should need to do is Hacking-On-The-Fly, Log-In, and then attempt to drive the car, defending yourself against whatever IC capabilities the GM gives the pilot program.
In both cases, turns and IP work against the hacker. You're still stuck with messing with a single car at a time for a limited amount of time. Having the hacker take out multiple bikes is going to take time AND attract attention. Having the hacker take out a single bike is very doable.
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Alternative plan (this works with both interpretations, though it is better with the slave option): Hack the grid guide for admin (complete with difficulties), have the driver subscribe you car to the grid guide, have the hacker tell the grid guide you're a firetruck. Then start telling it all the cars between you and the bikers are police vehicles. Every round you can continue to be the firetruck (not get kicked out) and get another cop car playing intercept on the bikers increases you chance of getting out of there.
Note that the big difference here is that you are NOT attempting to control the actions of the cars. You're letting the grid guide control the actions of the cars (something it can do better than you) based on bad information (thinking they're cop cars). This basically means putting the outcome in the hands of the GM in the hopes of a better result.
Spoofing does seem to be the best bet. However, you'll want to spoof twice, once so that Grid Guide won't override a possible collision, and once to tell the pilot to move the car into the path of the bikes. Then it's just a crash test for the rider(s).
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 26 2011, 10:26 AM) 
Spoofing does seem to be the best bet. However, you'll want to spoof twice, once so that Grid Guide won't override a possible collision, and once to tell the pilot to move the car into the path of the bikes. Then it's just a crash test for the rider(s).
You lost me on that one. Was that:
- two spoofs in one IP
- a spoof to tell the car to ignore the grid guide followed by a spoof (from whom?) to tell the car to move.
- a spoof to tell the car what to do followed by a spoof to tell the car.. what exactly?
I don't understand how to translate what you've said into Spoof actions and IPs.
The default Pilot program has "Do not ever collide into other vehicles" as part of it's restrictions.
The best bet really would be to spoof gridguide into thinking you're a firetruck, or knight errand police vehicle, and go from there. It also depends what City you are in. If this is NeoTokyo, then it's going to be rediculously easy to spoof a traffic jam, and force other vehicles off the road, because everyone around you is following gridguide blindly. If it's somewhere less modern, some people won't be using grid guide at all.
What I would do, is a spoof to gridguide that you have to spend 1 ip a combat turn re-doing to let the system think you're a Special Vehicle™ so you can get other cars out of your way. To block the Bikes, the best bet is probably to spoof a car infront of them into thinking it's swerving to avoid something more important to avoid.
Pilot 2 is an idiot, it follows basic instructions. If it's given a choice between, "hit child, but avoid driver behind you, or avoid child, hit driver behind you" it'll pick avoid child.
So find a car up front of the Bike, spoof it into swerving.
The best bet really would be to spoof gridguide into thinking you're a firetruck, or knight errand police vehicle, and go from there. It also depends what City you are in. If this is NeoTokyo, then it's going to be rediculously easy to spoof a traffic jam, and force other vehicles off the road, because everyone around you is following gridguide blindly. If it's somewhere less modern, some people won't be using grid guide at all.
What I would do, is a spoof to gridguide that you have to spend 1 ip a combat turn re-doing to let the system think you're a Special Vehicle™ so you can get other cars out of your way. To block the Bikes, the best bet is probably to spoof a car infront of them into thinking it's swerving to avoid something more important to avoid.
Pilot 2 is an idiot, it follows basic instructions. If it's given a choice between, "hit child, but avoid driver behind you, or avoid child, hit driver behind you" it'll pick avoid child.
So find a car up front of the Bike, spoof it into swerving.
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 26 2011, 01:42 PM)
You lost me on that one. Was that:
I don't understand how to translate what you've said into Spoof actions and IPs.
- two spoofs in one IP
- a spoof to tell the car to ignore the grid guide followed by a spoof (from whom?) to tell the car to move.
- a spoof to tell the car what to do followed by a spoof to tell the car.. what exactly?
I don't understand how to translate what you've said into Spoof actions and IPs.
First, spoof Grid Guide to ignore the car you are targetting.
Second, spoof the car pilot to move the car.
In one IP you've commanded a car to move, regardless of grid guide's involvement. The other postersa seemed to be concentrating too hard on getting passed grid guide on a permanent basis, and then affecting the cars, but that isn't necessary. You shouldn't need to move more then a few cars anyway.
What makes you think pilot 2 cares about avoid child? Especially with a sensor of 2. If given a choice between hitting a smaller object and a larger one presumably the pilot program will pick the smaller every time.
The thing is you can't just spoof "I'm a firetruck" you need an access ID of a firetruck to spoof as. That's what people keep overlooking.
The thing is you can't just spoof "I'm a firetruck" you need an access ID of a firetruck to spoof as. That's what people keep overlooking.
Wait your rigger doesn't keep a list of useable accessID's for just such an emergency?
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 26 2011, 01:57 PM)
What makes you think pilot 2 cares about avoid child? Especially with a sensor of 2. If given a choice between hitting a smaller object and a larger one presumably the pilot program will pick the smaller every time.
The thing is you can't just spoof "I'm a firetruck" you need an access ID of a firetruck to spoof as. That's what people keep overlooking.
The thing is you can't just spoof "I'm a firetruck" you need an access ID of a firetruck to spoof as. That's what people keep overlooking.
That, and, the OP is looking for away that doesn't get them caught on camera or suspects of the event. If the PC's spoof themselves to be a firetruck, everyone moves, and the cameras look at them. Later, they get a nice visit from Lonestar.
If the bikes are moving through the jam at any appreciable speed, moving one or two cars will slow them down enough for someone else to call an emergency number. When the bikers get up and start pulling out weapons, that emergency number gets Lonestar Stratto-9s looking at them.
Hacking? Why not just whip out a good ol' fashioned box of ball bearings?
I remember a run a while back when I had a character that was a pilot but still knew his way around a vehicle.
The goal was to create a distraction for private security forces while the rest of the team effected entry to a building.
Our hacker had to be on the entry team so it was up to me to create the distraction. With exactly forty seconds of thought, my character spent the night with a miniwelder scooping anything out of the car that didnt absolutely have to be there (Airbags? Who needs 'em?). Come go time, he rolls up next to a security bot and smashes it in the head with a wrench then petal to the metal. He led virtually all of the reserve private security officers and about half the cops in the city on an hour long chase that involved about a million or so nuyen worth of private property damaged and destroyed.
My GM sicced a pack of monowheeled security drones on the car so my character busted out a box of ball bearings (Yes, I had a box of ball bearings) and let 'em fly. Of the ~22 drones on the road, 15 failed to stay upright. It didnt destroy any of them, but it sure as shit slowed them down.
As a side note, that's one issue I've noticed with Shadowrun; it seems to encourage it's players tend to chronically over-think situations. People bring a two-ton tool chest to open a locked door when all you need is a fuckin' hammer.
I remember a run a while back when I had a character that was a pilot but still knew his way around a vehicle.
The goal was to create a distraction for private security forces while the rest of the team effected entry to a building.
Our hacker had to be on the entry team so it was up to me to create the distraction. With exactly forty seconds of thought, my character spent the night with a miniwelder scooping anything out of the car that didnt absolutely have to be there (Airbags? Who needs 'em?). Come go time, he rolls up next to a security bot and smashes it in the head with a wrench then petal to the metal. He led virtually all of the reserve private security officers and about half the cops in the city on an hour long chase that involved about a million or so nuyen worth of private property damaged and destroyed.
My GM sicced a pack of monowheeled security drones on the car so my character busted out a box of ball bearings (Yes, I had a box of ball bearings) and let 'em fly. Of the ~22 drones on the road, 15 failed to stay upright. It didnt destroy any of them, but it sure as shit slowed them down.
As a side note, that's one issue I've noticed with Shadowrun; it seems to encourage it's players tend to chronically over-think situations. People bring a two-ton tool chest to open a locked door when all you need is a fuckin' hammer.
Another option, just hack the pilot to open the doors up. That should be fairly doable.. the bikes are after all speeding between cars, if suddenly a door opens up in front of them.. ouch.
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 26 2011, 11:49 AM)
The default Pilot program has "Do not ever collide into other vehicles" as part of it's restrictions.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 26 2011, 11:57 AM)
The thing is you can't just spoof "I'm a firetruck" you need an access ID of a firetruck to spoof as. That's what people keep overlooking.
I can never tell if comments like this are opinions, house rules, or RAW. Personally, if there isn't a page number, I'm starting to ignore them for purposes of this forum though I may note them as house rules or potential house rules.
Note, that when I suggested the "I'm a firetruck" I wasn't spoofing, I was editing. I may not have made that clear. In such a case, I don't believe I need the access ID of a firetruck. I just need the access ID of my vehicle. Again, this is all on how the GM thinks grid guide actually works. If it's actually documented HOW it works, I missed it.
QUOTE
What I would do, is a spoof to gridguide that you have to spend 1 ip a combat turn re-doing to let the system think you're a Special Vehicle™ so you can get other cars out of your way.
SR4A 232 QUOTE
You send a command to a device or agent, pretending it is from an authorized source. You must have an access ID from which the target accepts commands (usually by making a Matrix Perception test on the authorized source or by tracing its icon).
I have no clue what access ID gridguide accepts such commands from or even such an id exists.-------------
I feel like I'm a blind man having an argument about elephants with other blind men. It would be nice if Grid Guide and how it worked was more than fluff and someone would point me to it.
How's about hacking GridGuide to ignore you, and call Lonestar on them? ;p
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 26 2011, 02:30 PM)
Another option, just hack the pilot to open the doors up. That should be fairly doable.. the bikes are after all speeding between cars, if suddenly a door opens up in front of them.. ouch.
Still not really hacking, unless you need access to make them open. A spoof should be able to do that just as easily, and shouldn't be interfered with by grid guide. Hmmm.
The existence of the Restrictions Program Option in unwired, combined with how they talk about how gridguide works strongly implies it. The most detailed information on gridguide is going to be from the supplement that has Neo-Tokyo in it.. I forget the name of it.
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 26 2011, 12:33 PM)
Still not really hacking, unless you need access to make them open. A spoof should be able to do that just as easily, and shouldn't be interfered with by grid guide. Hmmm.
Seriously read the section on spoof, it isn't the magical non hacking do anything action you think it is. Here i'll make it easy
QUOTE ('Sr4A P.232)
Spoof Command (Spoof )
You send a command to a device or agent, pretending it is from an
authorized source. You must have an access ID from which the target
accepts commands (usually by making a Matrix Perception test on the
authorized source or by tracing its icon). To spoof a target, choose
a command (per the Issue Command action, p. 229) and make an
Opposed Test between your Hacking + Spoof and the target’s Pilot
+ Firewall (System + Firewall for peripheral devices); if you succeed,
the target accepts the command as legitimate. Each Spoof Command
action applies only to a single command; multiple commands require
multiple Spoof Command attempts.
You send a command to a device or agent, pretending it is from an
authorized source. You must have an access ID from which the target
accepts commands (usually by making a Matrix Perception test on the
authorized source or by tracing its icon). To spoof a target, choose
a command (per the Issue Command action, p. 229) and make an
Opposed Test between your Hacking + Spoof and the target’s Pilot
+ Firewall (System + Firewall for peripheral devices); if you succeed,
the target accepts the command as legitimate. Each Spoof Command
action applies only to a single command; multiple commands require
multiple Spoof Command attempts.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 26 2011, 08:19 PM)
Seriously read the section on spoof, it isn't the magical non hacking do anything action you think it is. Here i'll make it easy
Getting an Access ID from GridGuide isn't that hard: Analyse your local node. I find it hard to believe GG would be able to open doors though. It's a traffic management system, not a chauffeur.
The Pilot might accept the command from the owner's comlink though, which will likely be in the car, with an active connection. Acquiring an Access ID there should be as trivial as going Analyse on it as well.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 26 2011, 01:19 PM)
Seriously read the section on spoof, it isn't the magical non hacking do anything action you think it is. Here i'll make it easy
You may need to edit your sig to read
"If the GM doesn't understand the matrix system it gets less powerful, except for spoofing. If your GM doesn't understand that, it's as good as magic"
Alright, yeah, Spoofing isn't all powerful. I know it's not, but simple commands such as those are better through spoofing then hacking past the firewall with Exploit to set up.
I digress on the test, as well. And admit I'm not the most knowledgable about the cyberspace side of Shadowrun. It completely skipped my mind that the hacking skill was used with spoofing action, which makes my previous statement completely false. I'm sorry for my mistaken judgement.
I digress on the test, as well. And admit I'm not the most knowledgable about the cyberspace side of Shadowrun. It completely skipped my mind that the hacking skill was used with spoofing action, which makes my previous statement completely false. I'm sorry for my mistaken judgement.
I tend to be a bit hard on my players trying to hack GridGuide. Of all the targets a player is likely to hack, GridGuide is probably the one that serves the most customers at once, and simultaneously is also one of the ones that gets the WORST PR when something fucks up. Combine this with the fact that it's a matrix-based service (and the fact that EVERYONE is going to want to hack themselves out of traffic at some point) and you get a numerous, well-trained staff of matrix security specialists just waiting to fuck up your hacker's day. Seriously, hacking GridGuide should be on the same plateau of "difficult, but awesome" as hacking KE or Lone Star.
QUOTE (Falanin @ Jul 27 2011, 03:31 AM)
I tend to be a bit hard on my players trying to hack GridGuide. Of all the targets a player is likely to hack, GridGuide is probably the one that serves the most customers at once, and simultaneously is also one of the ones that gets the WORST PR when something fucks up. Combine this with the fact that it's a matrix-based service (and the fact that EVERYONE is going to want to hack themselves out of traffic at some point) and you get a numerous, well-trained staff of matrix security specialists just waiting to fuck up your hacker's day. Seriously, hacking GridGuide should be on the same plateau of "difficult, but awesome" as hacking KE or Lone Star.
You are right. It shouldn`t be easy. Which is also why I say spoof instead of exploit. Lower threshold, being an opposed test, instead of the extended test that can get you found out real fast, and the effects are only very short term.
On the other hand, the option mentioned of requesting a door to be opened, shouldn`t even use grid guide, and as such, would be much safer to attempt.
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 27 2011, 07:00 AM)
On the other hand, the option mentioned of requesting a door to be opened, shouldn`t even use grid guide, and as such, would be much safer to attempt.
The issue with it is that the hacker doesn't know the right accessID to do the spoof from. The hacker can guess IF the driver of the car has a public commlink AND that public commlink actually does have such access AND the pilot program doesn't have restrictions such as "don't open the doors if the car is in motion" or "don't open the doors if there is a risk of collision", both of which are sensible safety features.
When spoofing you have to decide if you're spoofing as admin (-6 to dice pool*), security (-3), or user. If the car is slaved to the access ID then the spoof is at admin** (-6). What level of access do you need to tell the pilot program to open the door knowing it will result in a collision?
The -6 is also an important reason to decide if cars are slaved to gridguide or just get advice from gridguide. Vehicles slaved to gridguide or even slaved to their owners commlink and they get more difficult to spoof.
--------------
*Unwired Pg 99 (admin on spoofing)
** Unwired pg 55 (admin on slaves).
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 27 2011, 02:36 PM)
The -6 is also an important reason to decide if cars are slaved to gridguide or just get advice from gridguide. Vehicles slaved to gridguide or even slaved to their owners commlink and they get more difficult to spoof.
Quite the contrary. Like I've said in this same thread: in that case you just need an Acess ID from GridGuide or the owner's comlink. The first should definitely be running active nodes all over the place, the second will most likely be running either active or passive as well. Getting their Acess IDs is a matter of using Analyze once.
Also, slaving doesn't so change command priority at all. Whatever you do to a device, it's sending commands. Slaving just means the device will only accept commands from one source. This is why GridGuide won't ever have cars slaved to it (except for GridGuide service vehicles, perhaps) since the car won't take commands from your own comlink anymore at that point, so good luck telling your car where to go.
Also, if you're going to hack a car's Pilot, why spoof, why not just hack on the fly.
A random car has a rating of 2, with a pilot of 1, 2 tops. A top end car has a rating of 3. So long as you don't hack some rigger's pimped out mobile it's trivial.
IP 1: Detect Active/Passive Nodes, analyze, observe in detail
IP 2: Hack on the fly (4, complex action) Only really need User level access to open door.
IP 3: Issue command (door opens)
Voila done. Unless you're telling me you have a hacker who can't get 4 successes in 1 roll? and whose stealth is not going to be able to resist 4 dice?
A random car has a rating of 2, with a pilot of 1, 2 tops. A top end car has a rating of 3. So long as you don't hack some rigger's pimped out mobile it's trivial.
IP 1: Detect Active/Passive Nodes, analyze, observe in detail
IP 2: Hack on the fly (4, complex action) Only really need User level access to open door.
IP 3: Issue command (door opens)
Voila done. Unless you're telling me you have a hacker who can't get 4 successes in 1 roll? and whose stealth is not going to be able to resist 4 dice?
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 27 2011, 07:02 AM)
Also, if you're going to hack a car's Pilot, why spoof, why not just hack on the fly.
A random car has a rating of 2, with a pilot of 1, 2 tops. A top end car has a rating of 3. So long as you don't hack some rigger's pimped out mobile it's trivial.
IP 1: Detect Active/Passive Nodes, analyze, observe in detail
IP 2: Hack on the fly (4, complex action) Only really need User level access to open door.
IP 3: Issue command (door opens)
Voila done. Unless you're telling me you have a hacker who can't get 4 successes in 1 roll? and whose stealth is not going to be able to resist 4 dice?
A random car has a rating of 2, with a pilot of 1, 2 tops. A top end car has a rating of 3. So long as you don't hack some rigger's pimped out mobile it's trivial.
IP 1: Detect Active/Passive Nodes, analyze, observe in detail
IP 2: Hack on the fly (4, complex action) Only really need User level access to open door.
IP 3: Issue command (door opens)
Voila done. Unless you're telling me you have a hacker who can't get 4 successes in 1 roll? and whose stealth is not going to be able to resist 4 dice?
Assuming the car isn't slaved and assuming the same user level access. Personally, I'd spoof for the following reason:
IP 1: Detect Active/Passive Nodes, analyze, observe in detail
IP 2: Spoof command (door opens)
If the car was slaved AND I had the dice pool to get the successes after removing 6 dice from my pool, I'd still spoof for the same reason, it's faster when I only want to do one thing.
If I want multiple actions (attack with a car, block with a car and keep blocking) then I prefer hacking. Single actions with a big enough pool, I like spoofing. But that's just me.
I'd go for hacking, just for having the stylistic choice of having 'Dodge this' displayed on the inside of the door's window.
While displaying a nice 'Thanks for letting me use your ride' on the windshield.
Don't forget to do log-cleaning though.
While displaying a nice 'Thanks for letting me use your ride' on the windshield.
Don't forget to do log-cleaning though.
The problem with spoofing is this:
IP 1: detect nodes,analyze, observe in detail
ip 2: analyze commlink of guy in the car you want, waste a simple action
ip 3: spoof command to the pilot.
You need to find the commlin for the driver
You need to determine his accessID
You need to determine if the car is slaved to the commlink or not.
You need to spoof the car
It's potentially more steps, picking out the right node for a car is easy, you can see the car, you can guess which node it is. Picking out the commlink/s inside the car could be more problematic. What if there is more than 1 person in the car, or the guy has multiple commlinks (one personal, one for work, and one he uses when talking to his girlfriend so his wife doesn't find out). Except of course that with spoof you don't have to edit the security logs, to remove yourself. So that's a nice bonus. Another Option is to spoof the bike to make it think it's about to run into a road hazard, make the bike stop, etc. It's a style thing I think, Hack lets you do more things, like have a finger displayed on the open door so the guy knows he just got pwned. Or a smiley face that says, "have a nice day".
Another option, is have a materialization spirit materialize in the path of the bike, as a log, or rock, or something that will make the bike flip/crash.
IP 1: detect nodes,analyze, observe in detail
ip 2: analyze commlink of guy in the car you want, waste a simple action
ip 3: spoof command to the pilot.
You need to find the commlin for the driver
You need to determine his accessID
You need to determine if the car is slaved to the commlink or not.
You need to spoof the car
It's potentially more steps, picking out the right node for a car is easy, you can see the car, you can guess which node it is. Picking out the commlink/s inside the car could be more problematic. What if there is more than 1 person in the car, or the guy has multiple commlinks (one personal, one for work, and one he uses when talking to his girlfriend so his wife doesn't find out). Except of course that with spoof you don't have to edit the security logs, to remove yourself. So that's a nice bonus. Another Option is to spoof the bike to make it think it's about to run into a road hazard, make the bike stop, etc. It's a style thing I think, Hack lets you do more things, like have a finger displayed on the open door so the guy knows he just got pwned. Or a smiley face that says, "have a nice day".
Another option, is have a materialization spirit materialize in the path of the bike, as a log, or rock, or something that will make the bike flip/crash.
Had to re-look some stuff up. I really need to know the matrix better. PLEASE correct my mistakes here.
IP #1
1) Free action. Detect Active/Passive Wireless Nodes (System).
2) At this point, one cannot do an analyze or observe in detail because we're not logged into anything. From what I'm reading we can:
IP #2:
1) Log ON (if successfully hacking) or Spoof (if we had a successful Trace User) - Again, all are complex actions.
IP#3:
If Logged On. Issue command or Jump in. Both are simple actions. Note that issuing a command on a hacked node doesn't give you any more ability than issuing a command via spoofing, BUT because it's a simple command, you can do two commands (i.e, also display pwnage) in an action phase instead of just a single spoof. So for issuing a lot of commands, or just flipping the bird, hacking has an edge here.
As I'm seeing things, Spoof still appears faster, assuming the trace user isn't a complete waste of time.
Again, I may be wrong. Most of the above comes from SR4a in the Matrix Actions sections starting at pg 228 and if unwired changed things, I may have missed it.
IP #1
1) Free action. Detect Active/Passive Wireless Nodes (System).
2) At this point, one cannot do an analyze or observe in detail because we're not logged into anything. From what I'm reading we can:
a) Trace User - to get an access_ID for spoofing (see "Game, Set, and Match" thread for why I believe this can be done without being logged in)Note that all are, I believe, Complex Actions.
b) hack on the fly, deciding what level of access to go for.
c) probe (which, annoying enough is in a different section entirely) - No point in doing that here.
d) Jam signal - again, no point in doing that here.
e) Capture Wireless Signal - which could be looked at later for access_IDs. I don't see the point of doing that here.
IP #2:
1) Log ON (if successfully hacking) or Spoof (if we had a successful Trace User) - Again, all are complex actions.
IP#3:
If Logged On. Issue command or Jump in. Both are simple actions. Note that issuing a command on a hacked node doesn't give you any more ability than issuing a command via spoofing, BUT because it's a simple command, you can do two commands (i.e, also display pwnage) in an action phase instead of just a single spoof. So for issuing a lot of commands, or just flipping the bird, hacking has an edge here.
As I'm seeing things, Spoof still appears faster, assuming the trace user isn't a complete waste of time.
Again, I may be wrong. Most of the above comes from SR4a in the Matrix Actions sections starting at pg 228 and if unwired changed things, I may have missed it.
You don't need to be logged in to analyze anything, in fact there are many times when you won't be. And you have to Analyze the nodes you found to figure out which one it is you want. Looking at it, Observe in detail is unnecessary, but you need to do 2 different Analyze. One to Analyze all the nodes to get their current location and to determine WHICH node it is you want to spoof, and another because it's good practice to analyze the node you're about to hack. If you don't analyze it, the GM could be a dick and have a Databomb on the gateway, which can freaking kill you.
Trace User won't give you the accessID unless you can see the user's Icon. It's badly worded, really the first roll of trace user gives you the accessID, the rest of the hits is what allows you to figure out where the user is physically.
Obtaining the AccessID requires one of several options.
Analyze his commlink (it will just give it to you)
Capture Wireless signal and analyze /that/
read logs on a system being accessed by said accessID
Analyze the Icon (this is what trace user does)
Trace User won't give you the accessID unless you can see the user's Icon. It's badly worded, really the first roll of trace user gives you the accessID, the rest of the hits is what allows you to figure out where the user is physically.
Obtaining the AccessID requires one of several options.
Analyze his commlink (it will just give it to you)
Capture Wireless signal and analyze /that/
read logs on a system being accessed by said accessID
Analyze the Icon (this is what trace user does)
Note that my impressions of spoofing vs. hacking come from http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry804857
I have no clue if it's accurate or not. I simply believe it to be. It appears to differ from what Sabs is saying. What's right is something I just don't know. They may both be right for all I know and I just don't understand.
I have no clue if it's accurate or not. I simply believe it to be. It appears to differ from what Sabs is saying. What's right is something I just don't know. They may both be right for all I know and I just don't understand.
First off Tiger Eyes and Aaron didn't understand their own rules 
they break their rules a few times.
That being said:
The first thing Slamm-0 does is capture wireless signal, so he has something to trace.
Now where I differ is that I find it incredibly stupid that you don't get the accessID until you get the physical location of the node. That's dumb. Though I guess by RAW that's what they are saying. It seems weird, because you can also get the accessID from logs, and from the ICON, by analyzing subscription information.
So, if that's the only way you're going to allow accessID's to be obtained.
Your spoof flow chart looks like this:
IP 1
a) detect nodes
b) analyze nodes (to find the node you want)
IP 2
a) capture wireless signal (you have a problem, what if the pilot isn't communicating with the commlink? how do you force it to)
IP 3
a) Trace User
IP 4
a) Trace User
/if/ you have 5 ip, which is highly prohibitive at character start
IP 5
a) Trace User
Round 2
IP 1
a) Trace User OR if you already got the access ID Spoof Command
While your Hack on the Fly flow chart looks like this:
Round 1
IP 1
A) Detect Nodes
B) Analyze Nodes
C) Analyze Car Node
IP 2
A) Hack on the Fly
IP 3
A) do what you wanted.
It gets more complicated when you realize that nodes in active mode automatically let people in with guest access, and you can see ICONS. If you can see the ICON you can analyze the ICON and obtain the accessID.
they break their rules a few times.That being said:
The first thing Slamm-0 does is capture wireless signal, so he has something to trace.
Now where I differ is that I find it incredibly stupid that you don't get the accessID until you get the physical location of the node. That's dumb. Though I guess by RAW that's what they are saying. It seems weird, because you can also get the accessID from logs, and from the ICON, by analyzing subscription information.
So, if that's the only way you're going to allow accessID's to be obtained.
Your spoof flow chart looks like this:
IP 1
a) detect nodes
b) analyze nodes (to find the node you want)
IP 2
a) capture wireless signal (you have a problem, what if the pilot isn't communicating with the commlink? how do you force it to)
IP 3
a) Trace User
IP 4
a) Trace User
/if/ you have 5 ip, which is highly prohibitive at character start
IP 5
a) Trace User
Round 2
IP 1
a) Trace User OR if you already got the access ID Spoof Command
While your Hack on the Fly flow chart looks like this:
Round 1
IP 1
A) Detect Nodes
B) Analyze Nodes
C) Analyze Car Node
IP 2
A) Hack on the Fly
IP 3
A) do what you wanted.
QUOTE
Your persona also bears your access ID. Your access ID is the way the Matrix “recognizes” you at a machine level; it is unique. The routers of the Matrix use it to pass data to and from your commlink. You can’t use the Matrix without it, but it has one drawback: it can be used to trace you. Every time you are online (which is usually all of the time) your presence is logged. Your access ID is associated with all of your online transactions and typically logged by any device you access. This record is called your datatrail, and it may be used to track you down or to link you to certain crimes or activities.
your access ID is automatically given when you log on.
your soycaf dispenser will have your access ID on a list that shows that you have an admin account on its node
This is a list of possible pieces of information you can ask about icons and
nodes when you use Matrix Perception. It is a representative list, but not an
exhaustive one.
• Access ID of a user or independent agent
• Alert status of node
• Edit date of a file
• Function of a control icon
• Hidden access to another node
• Matrix damage taken by icon
• Presence of a data bomb
• Programs run by persona or agent
• Rating of one Matrix attribute
• Type (file, user, agent, program type, etc.)
• Whether a file or node is encrypted
• Whether a Trace is running
Access ID: Every node has a hardwired access ID, which serves as its address in the Matrix. If someone wants to find a node, they look up its access ID.
Access ID: Every persona is given a unique access ID. This is based on the hardwired access ID of the node, with an added signifier indicating the account. This access ID serves as the persona’s Matrix address and is recorded by all nodes the persona interacts with, leaving a datatrail
This contradicts things a bit:
Before you can spoof, you must have an access ID from which the target accepts commands. This can be done by finding an authorized user in the Matrix and making a Matrix Perception test on her icon to get her access ID. You can also use the Capture Wireless Traffic action to find legitimate orders and then Trace the communication back to its source, which will net you the access ID.
your access ID is automatically given when you log on.
your soycaf dispenser will have your access ID on a list that shows that you have an admin account on its node
This is a list of possible pieces of information you can ask about icons and
nodes when you use Matrix Perception. It is a representative list, but not an
exhaustive one.
• Access ID of a user or independent agent
• Alert status of node
• Edit date of a file
• Function of a control icon
• Hidden access to another node
• Matrix damage taken by icon
• Presence of a data bomb
• Programs run by persona or agent
• Rating of one Matrix attribute
• Type (file, user, agent, program type, etc.)
• Whether a file or node is encrypted
• Whether a Trace is running
Access ID: Every node has a hardwired access ID, which serves as its address in the Matrix. If someone wants to find a node, they look up its access ID.
Access ID: Every persona is given a unique access ID. This is based on the hardwired access ID of the node, with an added signifier indicating the account. This access ID serves as the persona’s Matrix address and is recorded by all nodes the persona interacts with, leaving a datatrail
This contradicts things a bit:
Before you can spoof, you must have an access ID from which the target accepts commands. This can be done by finding an authorized user in the Matrix and making a Matrix Perception test on her icon to get her access ID. You can also use the Capture Wireless Traffic action to find legitimate orders and then Trace the communication back to its source, which will net you the access ID.
It gets more complicated when you realize that nodes in active mode automatically let people in with guest access, and you can see ICONS. If you can see the ICON you can analyze the ICON and obtain the accessID.
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 27 2011, 11:54 AM)
You don't need to be logged in to analyze anything, in fact there are many times when you won't be. And you have to Analyze the nodes you found to figure out which one it is you want. Looking at it, Observe in detail is unnecessary, but you need to do 2 different Analyze. One to Analyze all the nodes to get their current location and to determine WHICH node it is you want to spoof, and another because it's good practice to analyze the node you're about to hack. If you don't analyze it, the GM could be a dick and have a Databomb on the gateway, which can freaking kill you.
Trace User won't give you the accessID unless you can see the user's Icon. It's badly worded, really the first roll of trace user gives you the accessID, the rest of the hits is what allows you to figure out where the user is physically.
Obtaining the AccessID requires one of several options.
Analyze his commlink (it will just give it to you)
Capture Wireless signal and analyze /that/
read logs on a system being accessed by said accessID
Analyze the Icon (this is what trace user does)
Trace User won't give you the accessID unless you can see the user's Icon. It's badly worded, really the first roll of trace user gives you the accessID, the rest of the hits is what allows you to figure out where the user is physically.
Obtaining the AccessID requires one of several options.
Analyze his commlink (it will just give it to you)
Capture Wireless signal and analyze /that/
read logs on a system being accessed by said accessID
Analyze the Icon (this is what trace user does)
Sorry, just a nitpick. You won`t be using Analyze to find the node, that's what Scan is for.
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Jul 27 2011, 10:23 PM)
Sorry, just a nitpick. You won`t be using Analyze to find the node, that's what Scan is for.
No sir. Assuming whatever nodes you're looking for are running active or passive, you don't need Scan to find them.
You will, however, need Analyze to distinguish the node you're looking for among the bunch of nodes likely to be in the car. Or Data Search to look for it in the most likely large 'active or passive nodes withing range' list.
Scan lets you find "nodes"
Analyze lets you determined which of your found nodes is the "one you want"
Analyze lets you determined which of your found nodes is the "one you want"
And since you don't need to Scan to find active or passive nodes, you just have the second step to go.
Your 'link will list of all available nodes within mutual signal range, but they're just Access IDs. You don't have a clue which one is what car, which one is the driver's comlink, his glasses, the RFID in the candybar in his pocket, the ruthenium-covered skintight suit that girl beside him is wearing, the alarm on the storefront across the street, the traffic light you just ran, the billboard in the lane divider.
This is where you can Analyze whatever seems your likely target and hope you're right, get the car, have it tell you it's slaved to another Access ID, which you can then search for in the same fashion.
Or you could Data Search to find 'node belonging to Ford with plate number 657AIO087JQ9,' wait a turn or two, and go Analyze then.
Your 'link will list of all available nodes within mutual signal range, but they're just Access IDs. You don't have a clue which one is what car, which one is the driver's comlink, his glasses, the RFID in the candybar in his pocket, the ruthenium-covered skintight suit that girl beside him is wearing, the alarm on the storefront across the street, the traffic light you just ran, the billboard in the lane divider.
This is where you can Analyze whatever seems your likely target and hope you're right, get the car, have it tell you it's slaved to another Access ID, which you can then search for in the same fashion.
Or you could Data Search to find 'node belonging to Ford with plate number 657AIO087JQ9,' wait a turn or two, and go Analyze then.
To be fair, it's unlikely that the candy bar and his glasses are within mutual signal range. And the skintight ruthenium suit probably has a signal range of 0
It's significantly faster to hack in that case, because you don't need to find the accessID, just the node, and start spanking.
It's significantly faster to hack in that case, because you don't need to find the accessID, just the node, and start spanking.
When you're in the lane right next to them, even signal 0's 3 meter range is likely to include you. When the girl's in the backseat, anyway, instead of riding shotgun. 
One observation about the "using scan" or "using analyse" argument
The hacker already eats load of time when other people can do very little. The systems need to be simpler not more complex, unless there is a strong in game reason to do so. Hacking a plumbers van should be a trivial thing, where as hacking the UCAS president's vehicle should be close to impossible. Its generally a bad idea I think to add complexity, die rolls and lots of time to the trivial.
The hacker already eats load of time when other people can do very little. The systems need to be simpler not more complex, unless there is a strong in game reason to do so. Hacking a plumbers van should be a trivial thing, where as hacking the UCAS president's vehicle should be close to impossible. Its generally a bad idea I think to add complexity, die rolls and lots of time to the trivial.
QUOTE (Seth @ Jul 29 2011, 04:50 PM)
One observation about the "using scan" or "using analyse" argument
The hacker already eats load of time when other people can do very little. The systems need to be simpler not more complex, unless there is a strong in game reason to do so. Hacking a plumbers van should be a trivial thing, where as hacking the UCAS president's vehicle should be close to impossible. Its generally a bad idea I think to add complexity, die rolls and lots of time to the trivial.
The hacker already eats load of time when other people can do very little. The systems need to be simpler not more complex, unless there is a strong in game reason to do so. Hacking a plumbers van should be a trivial thing, where as hacking the UCAS president's vehicle should be close to impossible. Its generally a bad idea I think to add complexity, die rolls and lots of time to the trivial.
This was just to illustrate what steps should be taken.
The complexity reason is why I'm firmly of the opinion you should buy your successes as much as possible.
but really, you shouldnt be able to BUY successes on any hacking test, as there is always the risk of failure with hacking
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 30 2011, 04:20 AM)
but really, you shouldnt be able to BUY successes on any hacking test, as there is always the risk of failure with hacking
There is a risk of failure with anything. There is a risk associated with the failing, however.
Still any hacker worth the name should find hacking a run of the mill DR 3 device something he can do while slotting a BTL and being serviced by his bisexual elf stripper ninja roommate. RAW might not allow buying successes, but doing anything else bogs the game down with things that aren't exciting in the least.
This thread has gotten me thinking and i'm starting to do an in universe writeup on Gridguide both as a corporation (i see them as a specially recognized double A) and a system including out of character stats and quirks for gamemasters to use. I'll post it if people are interested.
At least in brief I see grid guide as heavily redundant. The front line nexi for any given area of a city (I presume it divides the city into 16 block sectors although i may revise that for feasibility) operate in pairs mostly interested in handling the traffic processing. Each pair sends data back to more secure data storage nexi and decision making nexi. Thinking on it gridguide likely has massive tracking capabilities as they keep track of nearly every legally owned car int he city and know where it's at at all times (or at least a general location when it goes off the grid). This is the biggest thing that keeps runners from just spoofing themselves as a firetruck as Gridguide likely knows where said firetruck is and will flag an appearance by it across town for spider intervention.
So far my rough outline has planned:
In character writeup on grid guide by Chromed Accountant with some Jackpoint/Nexus flavor text.
NPC writeups on gridguide spiders and admistrators including suggestiosn for using them as contacts.
Actual stats on the grid guide system for seattle or other large sprawl.
On the whole I see the sytem designed to be resilient as all hell, because as long as the system works it makes money. That's not to say hacking out a traffic jam isn't possible but at the very least it should require crashing both node pairs of a redundant system which causes all cars in the area to stop.
I hate when a GM idea gets in my head and won't be exorcised until i've hacked it out.
At least in brief I see grid guide as heavily redundant. The front line nexi for any given area of a city (I presume it divides the city into 16 block sectors although i may revise that for feasibility) operate in pairs mostly interested in handling the traffic processing. Each pair sends data back to more secure data storage nexi and decision making nexi. Thinking on it gridguide likely has massive tracking capabilities as they keep track of nearly every legally owned car int he city and know where it's at at all times (or at least a general location when it goes off the grid). This is the biggest thing that keeps runners from just spoofing themselves as a firetruck as Gridguide likely knows where said firetruck is and will flag an appearance by it across town for spider intervention.
So far my rough outline has planned:
In character writeup on grid guide by Chromed Accountant with some Jackpoint/Nexus flavor text.
NPC writeups on gridguide spiders and admistrators including suggestiosn for using them as contacts.
Actual stats on the grid guide system for seattle or other large sprawl.
On the whole I see the sytem designed to be resilient as all hell, because as long as the system works it makes money. That's not to say hacking out a traffic jam isn't possible but at the very least it should require crashing both node pairs of a redundant system which causes all cars in the area to stop.
I hate when a GM idea gets in my head and won't be exorcised until i've hacked it out.
Edit: Nevermind. Confusion on my part.
It was pretty ubiquitous in previous editions, I've just assumed it was something they didn't explicitly say that all cards had it because it was assumed.
A more detailed writeup would be interesting yeah. The hacking system doesn't explain very well how you would deal with such a megascale system, and particularly what its potential vulnerabilities would be.
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