Alright, so the purpose of this thread is to propose a matchup between any two established canonical Shadowrun NPCs. The rules are as follows:

1) The fight is a bareknuckle brawl. I don't care what the character's shticks are, it is NOT a matrix duel, a firefight, or an astral battle. It is a fist fight. So wired reflexes, adept powers, and increase ability or combat sense spells are fine, but bone spurs and shock hands are not, nor is manabolt et al. The characters are actually punching each other with their fists.
2) In order to prevent the conversation from degenerating into *numbers*, AT LEAST ONE OF THE COMBATANTS MUST STILL HAVE NO OFFICIAL GAME STATISTICS IN ANY FORM AT THE TIME OF POSTING.
This will give us something to speculate about.
3) Their fighting does not have to make any in-universe sense, but if there is some skewed POV by which it does, all the better.
4) Try, within a reasonable degree, to stick to NPCs everyone has heard of.
5) Try to stick with a reasonably even match. (i.e. Argent vs. Ryan Mercury, not Argent vs. Wilhemina Graff-Beloit. Note that the first matchup violates rule number two.)
6) Corporeal metahumans only.

This being dumpshock, if someone hasn't come up with a matchup to debate within "like five minutes" I'll throw out an idea myself to get this party started.

MATCH ONE: DAMIEN KNIGHT VS. RICHARD VILLIERS.

Dragonslayer Mentor Spirit vs. Wolf Mentor Spirit, cage match. Round one, fight!

I definitely do have the impression that all Mentor Spirits are evenly matched (even if their benefits are not). But thanks, Rusty, for reminding me of a rule I forgot!

Wolf (From "Wolf and Raven") Vs. Wolf (From "Lone Wolf").

Kellan Colt Vs. Sam "Twist" Verner.

Neil The Ork Barbarian Vs. Slade The Sniper.

Lofwyr Vs. Aden. (Both in Metahuman Form), with Ghostwalker (*NOT* In Metahuman form) or the Ancestor Spirit of Mohammad Ali refereeing. (Honestly, the guy will still stare you down today, in his current physical condition, and claim he's still the best, and you know he. Means. Every. Word.).

1) Not enough data.

2) Kellan Colt gets this one. Sam just is not the type to hit a girl. His hesitation would be his downfall, and she would make a girl out of him.

3) Neither exists?

4) Really tough call. My inclination is to say Lofwyr, as he wants it more, but I'm open to other opinions.

1) More than enough data. One's a street kid trained by Kid Stealth, the other has Lone Star training and Skillwires and has been in a street gang. It'd be a good fight! Or do you mean the fact that both books are OOP and most of the kids here with their CommLinks and Nanopaste Trodes wouldn't understand who I'm talking about. ... And when the hell did I start channeling Bull?

2) Can't really argue this one...

3) So? You know back in the '50s Simsense Fans were asking the question. There's probably plans for the flick already in LA. (Coming soon, from Horizon!)

4) Yeah, but Lofwyr has mostly been all business and talk. Aden has the reputation for destruction (Just ask the people of Tehran. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, too soon?). So it'd be a good smack-down, drag-on fight, I think.

Don't forget that Lofwyr has already kicked another dragon's ass in hand to hand (or should that be tooth to claw) personal combat. (I know Aden destroyed a CITY, but he had his "magical fire breath" for that.)

We're going bare-knuckle no magic though, so I'd have to bet on Aden. Lofwyr is probably smarter, more magically powerful, and certainly more ruthless and likely to cheat (get a big folding chair maybe), but if we kept it fair Aden seems more flat-out brutal. Plus sirrushes are a little faster than western dragons, and speed kills.

How about Damien Knight vs Richard Villiers?

Knight Vs. Villiers I would pay to see.

Knight would get it, however. Military Experience and Training...

Knight would win, but be disqualified because it was actually one of his body doubles.

1) I'd bet on Wolf, of Wolf and Raven fame, mostly because magic is allowed. Hand to hand (or tooth to claw), no guns? That's where Wolf shines (and snarls, and bites). It won't be pretty, but I think he'd get the job done.

2) +1 for Kellan, much as it pains me to say it. Both of them have some plot armor, sure, but she's still got her magic and has the "Sam tends to hesitate in a fight sometimes" factor going and last I recall her adept boyfriend, the ex-Ancient (who was still somehow a character I'm not fond of, despite fitting all my favorite cliches) was teaching her how to fight.

3) Neil the Ork Barbarian, hands down. It's "not a firefight," according to the rules, and "not a firefight" is where Neil shines (and snarls, and bites). Of course, really, it just comes down to whose movie it is...

4) Lofwyr. Unless I'm totally misremembering, it's been pretty heavily insinuated that he's the most physically (not just financially) powerful of the Greats. Ghostwalker is better with spirits, Hestaby can out-cast him, Dunkie was better at playing with his food...but I seem to recall Lofwyr always being described as just brawny, even compared to other Greats. In this sort of physical match, I think he'd pull a win. But whoooo, boy, would I want to be watching from far, far, away.

Yeah but he left the military 40 years ago. And he was Air Force, known more for their brains over brawn. I agree I'd bet on Knight as well but there's just something extra vicious about Villiers that makes me think it wouldn't be quite so easy. Knight made his fortune by being brilliant and making the right friends. Villiers made his by murdering his first set of business partners (Matrix Systems) and sabotaging his second set (Fuchi). Spider-sense says Knight would have to work for it. Maybe Miles Lanier distracts the ref while Villiers gets in a low blow?

Gingerbread Crew vs Wrecking Crew?

1) Yeah, my bet too.

2) Kellan's boyfriend taught her so well that she RIPPED HIS ARMS OFF.

3) Actually, they'll probably fight to a draw, then Ninjas, then power of friendship.

4) We haven't seen enough of Aden to know about him/her abilities. Also, remember: Metahuman form. Draconic strength doesn't necessarily transfer over.

1. Wolf would go all hairy & kick the crap outta the undercover guy.

2. Which version of "Twist" are we talking here? Cause he won't kill, doesn't mean he won't get violent. Same Verner proved how effective Narcojet can be. In a fistfight, Colt would go for a nut shot, but Verner banged Sally Tsung so his junk has gone through some tough stuff.

3. Neil... cause classics should always win. Plus, this is a fistfight.

4. Hmm... need to think on this.

Heh, really? Maybe I should've made myself start (and finish) that third book. At least it sounds like stuff happened in it.

It's in Street Legends, actually. Stuff still didn't happen in the trilogy.

I feel like I missed the interesting stuff of her story now.

On the flipside, I hate the character less now. Say what you will about CGL, they did that better than WizKids.

Ah. Hers wasn't one of the chapters I helped proof for SL, and I've been scrambling so much post-GenCon I still haven't been able to sit down and just read it, chapter to chapter, to enjoy (instead of as work).

It still amazes me, more than anything else about her series of books (the pair I read, at least), how it is they managed to make a swaggering, street-tough, adept of an Ancients member that I didn't immediately like. I mean, if they'd made him an Urban Brawler, too, maybe they would've touched on one more of my, y'know, Shadowrun favorite things...but I still scratch my head over it. The guy should've been so right up my alley, he single-handedly could've made me like the series. But it someone still didn't work.

If it wasn't for her being in Street Legends, I'd suggest the whole trilogy be forgotten completely. Or treated like "Dead Air", and "It was all a Simsense flick.".

Here's my take. Damien Knight could punch Richard Villiers' face in half without breaking a sweat.

Damien Knight is something that Villiers is not and had never been; a soldier, through and through. His company is more WarLike than NeoNET. And when the shit has hit the fan, Villiers has always had Miles Lanier to get his back. Richard Villiers is basically Michael Douglas from Wall Street; Damien Knight is basically Tony Stark. I give this one to Damien Knight.



I definitely think that Villiers would fight dirty, but I think that Knight would fight harder and better. (Knight vs. Lanier is a completely different contest, and one I'd cede to Lanier.)

But what do the rest of you think? I made a poll.



I love the idea that Lofwyr is just brolic.



I'm pretty sure that a lot of fluff indicates it does.

A lot of that just comes down to which edition we're talking (in terms of stats carrying over to various metahuman forms), and on what fluff we're reading. Some folks like the crazy, almost comic-book type, images of a "normal" looking metahuman with a 30+ strength. Some don't. It depends on how magical you want them to be, how impressive and inhuman, and ultimately how "realistic" a game world you want.

And, even if full draconic strength doesn't transfer over, there's a precedent (drakes, for instance) that shows that draconic stats are still based, somewhat, on metahuman stats (like how drakes and shifters just applied modifiers to their metahuman stats to get their other-form stats). So there's a shaky fluff/rule precedent for the opposite perhaps also being true. If Lofwyr is substantially stronger in "true" form as a big-ass dragon, it may follow suit that even diminished into metahuman form, his body is still more powerful, broad-shouldered, whatever, than that of another dragon.

Again, just kind of depends on the edition and the fluff you choose to read.

The answer is whoever has the best handlebar mustache, so for every fight it would be Theodore Roosevelt.

Knight vs Villiers is my two favorite npcs squaring off.

Still taking suggestions for the next poll.

Who would be a good match for Dirk Montgomery?

Damien Knight vs. Richard Villiers : Definitively Knight, because of his past experience. His early career was in "only" the Air Force, but then he joined Echo Mirage Team Two, which I guess involved a tad harsh, physical as much as intellectual selection process. Remember Echo Mirage original team utterly failed, and four member of Team Two died in their first attempt to deal with the virus.
I can see only one thing possibly changing the outcome in Villiers favor. If you think Villiers is accustomed to playing dirty, now try threatening his ex-wife Samantha Villiers in front of him.

I got the longest, drawn-out, smack down fistfight possible!

Thomas Roxborough versus Peg the Decker!

Heh... Point for Canray...

Dirk vs Serrin

Double post.

Which of the Knight clones would win?

Dirk? I mean I imagine cyberarms would be pretty good for punching. Am I wrong?

I would like to see a "Who's more of a bad-ass samurai, Ghost-Who-Walks or Argent?"

Argent, hands down. So much more of a practical man.


Dirk. Serrin is a lot but not a martial artist.


Wolf (Stackpole's) because he tends to fight possessed by Wolf (also Stackpole's). Possession rules are nuts. In bare-knuckled mundane fights, all bets are off, sicne they have really a lot in common. Evenly matched, could go either way.


Verner, because he has an I-Win card issued by his writer.


It was a direct-to-chip sales hit in 2051, and also won five golden raspberries (worst acting, worst choreography, worst script, worst sequel and worst crossover). The winner, hence, is MegaMedia productions, now a subdivision of Regency.


Lofwyr. Because he hired a couple snipers to take out Aden in the ring, and put a huge bet on himself, effectively also making a huge buck out of the win (he also has the direct marketing rights to the fight reserved by Corp Court order).


Knight, because of previous military training, but it will be one hell of a match.


Wrecking Crew, because they actually do fighting and not a reality show.

My fight suggestions:

1. Harlequin vs. Erhan the Scribe
2. The Dodger vs. Puck
3. Catherine Hart vs. Nadja Daviar
4. William Jarman vs. Daniel Coleman
5. Ryan Mercury vs. Thorn

Argent would win hands down, he's the embodiment of bamf. Now Hatchetman vs Ghost would be a great fight.

Hart would wreck Daviar

Ooh baby, this is heating up.



Like Colt doesn't!?



1) This is becoming the second official matchup.

2) Well, Puck looks weak and sickly in the meat, whereas Dodger is just an elf. This is a battle of the bitches however you look at it, but I think my bet'd go with Dodger. I understand he slings a mean machine pistol, so hopefully he won't totally embarass himself in hand to hand.

3) I'd go with Hart; I just think she's more of a badass.

4) Howling Coyote. Hands down?

5) Disqualified. Both of these characters have in-game stats. You can roll out this fight if you want to. : )

Harlequin and Erhan have faced off a few times and each lost an ear. Tough call with that one.

That, however, was with rapiers, which is an entirely different ball game than fisticuffs.

Didn't Lofwyr take on another dragon and kick its ass?

<edit> Already answered in a later post>

/dev/grrl/ versus Pip (From Shadowrun Mission, Season 4).

And, the suggestion that will have every person in a good relationship angry at me: Slamm-0! versus Netcat!

Personally, I want to see Burnout vs Teachdaire.

So, its totally ok for a sneaky type to sucker punch/kick/knee/elbow/headbutt/throw/trip and what not, correct? Just saying, this is Shadowrun, I totally see someone ambushing/ninja-ing in this fistacuffs.

Oh and if some pinkmohawk type character doesn't start a fight by launching themselves from some moving object for their first punch, I would be surprised as well.

No love for Ehran the scribe, it seems.

what! Ryan is statted? Where? Not disbelieving, but ... where?

I think Dodger would take him (off the top of my head, just unabashedly picking the one I like better), but they've both been statted up -- albeit in different editions, so I think they're disqualified.


Painful as it is to say, I'd probably bet on Mercury.

Thorn got built a whole lot more as a sneaky killer than as a stand-up fighter (because he spent the last couple decades being a sneaky killer first, and a stand-up fighter second). From what I recall of Mercury's abilities, he's a whole lot more of an asskicking adept, with straight-up fighting abilities. If it were an assassination contest where they both got graded on how well they could sneak into someplace and kill someone (and his whole security detail), Thorn would probably take him. But in this sort of face-off, bare knuckle brawl? Mercury'd probably take him.

It'd be a long fight (because while Mercury spent his first action to Drake-up into a murder machine, Thorn would spend his first action to boost the bejeebus out of his Combat Sense and Critical Strike), and Thorn would be a frustrating dodge-monkey, don't get me wrong...but Thorn's pretty fragile, all things considered, so Mercury would just have to get in one solid hit and probably cut Rory in half.

It'd all come down to the luck of the dice, though. One unlucky soak roll from Mercury early on, and the elf's still in the fight, don't get me wrong.

Gencon 2011 Shadowrun Tournament. I GM'd the first half of it for one of a dozen tables that were playing. The pregenerated PCs were Ryan Mercury, Serrin Shamandar, Rigger X, Winterhawk, Netcat, Argent, Picador, and possibly one or two others I'm forgetting.

I completely agree with Critias' assessment of Mercury vs. Thorne on a fluff level, but since we have both sets of stats we could totally roll it out.



Can has stats for Dodger? What book are they from?

Okay, little wonder I was unaware of his stats. Will this be in the SRM Convention pack?

Also, stats for Argent ... well, I'd like to see those and Ryan's.

Dodger was statted up back in SR3, somewhere in the Brainscan arc. I'm not at home right now so I can't provide a page number or anything, but hopefully someone else has their collection handy.

I'm looking at Dodger's stats right now. Page 134 of Brainscan, for those curious.

*rolls his Drain soak after summoning ggodo as a Complex Action*

You best believe you're over summoning for me. I'm at least Force 12.

So who says I'm not Magic of at least 12, then?

Battle Of The Lone Star Rejects: Derek "Dirk" Montgomery (Post Cyberarm) Vs. Wolf (Of "Lone Wolf")