The moral of this story: do the math on any proposed house rules.

Correct.

It might work out OK for the average human who's already been healed by a good medic and a good mage (4 dice, 1 TH) but not for the street sam troll who's got stacking wounds and can't be healed further and has low edge (2 dice, 3 TH).

Ah, thanks. I was trying to figure out what rules you were talking about.

I started by making an offhand comment about the OP; should have quoted it.

In my game, I apply a fair number of the grittier options.

I use ALL the applicable conditions mods. ALL First Aid, Medicine, and Resting Rolls are modified by wound mods, no matter who is making the roll (if you are trying to heal yourself, wound mods apply TWICE). I also use the Severe Wounds optional rules in Augmentation pages 120-121. I have also considered putting those same mods on the mage casting a Heal Spell as well, but haven't pulled the trigger yet on that.

I find these rules alone is enough to scare the players into making a hangnail into an episode of ER, with everyone grabbing medkits "STAT!" and teamworking the injury as much as possible, with the mage finishing it off with a Heal spell. And when they don't have time to do that, you can feel the desperation and teeth-gritting determination as they attempt to finish the run as fast as they can before they start falling like flies, or get so injured they are in a hospital for a month or more, assuming they survive. Injury has also led them to abort a run, which I feel is very realistic!

The healing times using the RAW tend to feel about right, as long as you decrease their dice pool as I noted above for their recovery tests. Glitches also become more common.

I am surprised anyone in your game bothers with first aid at all. Someone with 3 boxes of stun and 6 boxes of physical is getting a -3 to that first aid test.

Oh, and -2 for being in bad conditions (the street)

Oh, and -1 for it being a little dark

Oh, and -2 for the subject being a mage

Oh, and there's a minimum threshold of 2 before any healing even occurs (17 base dice needed at this point to get 1 box of either track healed).

Do you apply these modifiers to natural healing tests too?

(Sorry, your 4 body minus your two wound penalties and you got a glitch? Take 1d6 more boxes of damage)

Yes, very realistic. But is it fun?

"We didn't do the job, which means we didn't get paid, which means we can't afford to lay around recuperating. We need a new job!"

"But boss, we're all shot up. We can't pull off a job in this condition."

"Well, then I guess we all roll over and die."

To pull a quote from RPG.net's review of FATAL, "If this were any more realistic, you'd be able to TASTE the penis length!"

Not to mention the automatic +1 notoriety for failing a run.

All of it, it seems. Weak builds, medium builds, strong builds, optimised builds, builds that use every single bonus that stacks in order to make the average guy in the street look as tough as an asthmatic ant.

I must admit that I don't bear in mind the optimised builds when thinking up house rules and judging them. I never have that kind of player at my table (not that I ban them) and I think it generally makes more sense for the nature of an optimised build to bend to the rules rather than the other way around.

So does it make sense that a tank with enough injury to kill a pleb nearly three times over to be unable to stave off the internal bleeding long enough to complete the mission? Maybe, maybe not.

Should the same apply to a less extreme but still very tough tank? Say 16 boxes total for a threshold of 4 or 5? Perhaps the rule is too harsh for that. But then I'm already thinking Critas was more on the money with his Body+Edge idea and a tank should have a fair chance then. Plus, we're only talking about one box per day and do many runs go on for days and days without any let up? When first contemplating this rule I imagined it would be of dramatic significance quite rarely, but present enough to hurt a little every once in a while. Maybe my games are quite unusual in that more often than not no more than one of the characters come close to filling up a damage track.

Now you're getting it. In order to figure out where the rule breaks, you have to do the math for the most brokenly overpowered builds you can think of. Then come to Dumpshock, get somebody to make a build that's even more overpowered than that, and do the math again. If the rule only breaks for outliers, you might have something. A straight Edge test with a threshold higher than 1 breaks everybody. Body + Edge is better, but still punishing for any character who isn't a tank or Mr. Lucky. A human with average Body and Edge rolls six dice, and cannot reliably meet a threshold higher than 2, and will glitch... fuck, I don't know how to figure that. Intuitively, I'm going to say it's unacceptably high; Draco18s, enlighten me, please.

Open Excel

Type this:



And that will tell you what you need to know.

Parameters are:
1) number of "hits" you're looking for
2) number of dice rolled
3) probability of a "hit" (in this case, 1s, so 1/6)
4) false (you don't want true for SR)

So, 5.35% (of 3 1s). Do the same for 4, 5, and 6 1's and sum (6.22%) and a 64.8% odds of 2 or more successes.

I prefer this: http://anydice.com/ Gorgeous.

T-roll is better. Namely because it includes Turing complete probability calculations for ANY dice roll setup you can imagine (check the dropdown for ShadowRun d6s and with Edge).

Hello? I said this one's prettier.

Except that I don't agree with that methodology. I expect the super-optimised builds to cause rules to break, at least in terms of plausible realism, and think they do so all over the shop already so I choose not to consider them. Again, I may well be in a minority over how much consideration the extreme cases warrant.

The supertank build might treat Edge as a dump stat (for all I know) but with this kind of rule in place he'd have to rethink and to me that's the natural order of things. Think of it like the 20 dice cap optional rule - a 40+ DP in your speciality might normally be considered a great build, but with the cap in place it suddenly becomes very sub-optimal

Hmm, maybe that was somewhat dismissive of me and not in-keeping with the debating spirit. Might have to stop posting before getting out of bed.

So how about this angle - how often will a 29-box tank be concerned about an extra box per day of running? Does anyone run the kind of game in which such a character could die from overflow?

Ok, version 2.0.

Only applies to physical damage, roll is Body + Edge (I still like the Edge element) and threshold is reduced by 1 if first aid and/or Heal has been applied since the last injury was suffered (reflecting that the wounds are not only less severe but also more under control).

Better? Too much the other way?

Lets see.

Your supertank troll with oodles of edge is going to be pushing around 16 dice to this test (10 body, 6 edge) and the absolute max is around 23 dice (12 body + 4 aug + 7 edge)?
Average expected hits is going to be about 5 (or 7-8 ).

At 13 physical boxes for the unaugmented max body troll, his maximum wound penalty is going to be -4 (and 16 dice to roll).

The cybertroll is rolling around with 16 boxes + 12, looking at a maximum wound penalties of -9 (and 23 dice to roll for that).

Maybe a little too far the other way. Someone who's rocking a nearly full tracks isn't going to be on a run.

Normal runners, at around 6 body (for your high end--orc or troll--as opposed to your body 2 mage) and 3 nominal Edge has 9 dice and a max threshold of -3 (1 box shy of the -4).

The low end (body 2 mage) is looking at a -3 top-out but only has 2 + 4 = 6 dice to roll.

It's a little easy, still, on that mid-to-high range. Full damage tracks shouldn't be the average (e.g. a full track's TH is the averge # of hits on the available dice pool). But that low range is going to kill somebody, and they're the least worrisome. They're not going to be going on the runs where they get shot up a lot, get shot up, and then want to run again.

What exactly are we trying to prove here Draco18s? I am still a bit unsure.
The numbers above are not speaking to me.

I was observing the scenarios available to the possible house rule, seeing how many dice a given character had to roll and figuring out what their maximum threshold is.

As it turns out, the test is largely meaningless for the people Aerospider is trying to "punish" (the street sams with piles of body, I assume). Previously the test was just outright impossible for everyone (even a TH2, which is an average human only 1/3 of the way to being unconscious, is difficult for anyone who didn't soft-max edge).

Anyway. Aerospider.

The way to work through the rule is to figure out what numbers you have to deal with. That being the potential dice pool, the DP penalty from wounds (the potential TH), and which group you want to be most effected. This should be the high-body characters with -1 to -3 in wound penalties (depending on their total number of boxes of health).

I'm not sure what to say in order to get somewhere that's "good."

I still think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken. The "Severe Wounds" optional rules in Augmentation are perfectly adequate if you want to make boxes of damage less like hit points (which, IMO, is an excellent goal, and I wholeheartedly support the use of Severe Wounds rules). They strike the right balance between making getting shot something worth worrying about and not beating the PCs down like redheaded stepchildren for sticking a pinky finger out from behind cover (see Dreadlord's house rules).

"JesusAllahBuddha this burns like a motherslotter! Damn, whose idea was it to use Willie-Peter?" "It's burning your cyberarm, you can turn off the sensation." "Oh, right. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's better. Oh, look, it fell out onto the ground. Good thing it missed my boot. ... Why do my lungs hurt?"

Quite. I was never looking for an ingenious way to tip characters into overflow (though would want that danger included in the rule) and would hope that someone with only a box to spare would give serious thought to taking a break at this point. This is also a part of why I didn't consider catering for the (IMO) ridiculous tank builds.

Ooh, I'm glad you used the quotation marks there. I never look to punish any character based on build, especially not by house rule. Rules should affect various builds in ways that are fair by realism or gameplay. It was interesting to note that (by the first version at least) those that could suffer the most damage would suffer most, which is not reasonable given that they are suffering for being strong. That said, I am tempted by the notion that the more bullets you're carrying in your organs the more can go wrong and deteriorate.

Extreme tank builds will just have huge tracks (pushing 20+ boxes) which is why a character won't mind having 6 boxes filled. To them they're at "half health" or less, whereas other characters would consider themselves at being "almost dead."



Exactly. I was using the term as a negative reinforcement tool (punish versus reward) towards the target audience, rather than something intended to be harsh and unforgiving.

Perhaps I should have illustrated my issue better.

Suppose two weak characters are a little bit shot up, no more than 6 boxes. One gets his head down whilst the other decides to stay active until a better healing opportunity arises. Now the second guy has nothing to worry about if he keeps himself out of trouble - that crossbow bolt in his calf will wait. The first guy, however, is in some danger. He has a low Body rating, no medical equipment or expertise on hand, poor conditions, whatever - he has only 1 die to roll for healing. That's a 1 in 6 chance of gaining 1D3 damage as well as losing an extra day of healing. If he's rolling 2 healing dice that probability goes up to 7 in 36, as we all know. So while his mate is off galavanting about town he's just praying his sick bed doesn't kill him.

Note, I'm quite happy with the glitch rules on healing, but desire an equivalent for those who put off healing for another day.

I'm also a big fan of the severe wounds rules, but they don't cater for this concern.

Oh, I totally get what you're trying to do. I'm just saying that I can't figure out how to get where you want to be without managing to hose someone (or end up with someone who invariably doesn't care).

...I think you still need to illustrate your issue better. What I get out of that post is that Runner A, who gets shot and takes some time off to heal up, is actually worse off than Runner B, who takes a crossbow bolt to the leg and keeps going. That not only makes no damn sense, it doesn't square with my previous understanding of your position (wounds should matter more and healing should be harder).

That is and always was exactly my issue and the purpose of this thread. As you say, it makes no damn sense but is RAW nonetheless.

My apologies for any part I played in your misunderstanding up until now.

Hm, it seems like what you (and myself as well!) are looking for is some kind of "internal bleeding" or "infection" rule for untreated wounds and/or people who refuse to rest up and heal naturally.

Either a new mechanic such as the aforementioned BOD + EDGE, or a novel application of an existing mechanic would work, I think.

How about if you don't rest/treat wounds within the first interval for the wound type (Stun is 1 hour, Physical Damage is 1 day), it counts as an automatic critical glitch and you take a further 1D3 damage boxes? Or is that too harsh? (which I have been accused of in this thread!)

btw: I misspoke earlier, I double-checked the House Rules published to my players and I don't apply injury mods to a First Aid or Medicine roll unless the person is trying to patch themselves up, nor do I apply it twice. My game is on hiatus for the summer, and my brain has misplaced some of the facts! The mage PC in my campaign is a doctor, though, so it rarely comes up due to First Aid, Medicine, and Heal Spell used in the proper order. On top of that, they are working a long-term mission (Ghost Cartels) for a medical AA company who provides health care for a discount if needed, although the players don't trust any corp enough to make it a habit.

I DO apply injury mods to all other health rolls such as resting, which tends to make healing times feel less "videogamey", especially for heavy wounds. I am not sure if that is a House Rule, as I don't see that Resting/Natural Healing is explicitly exempt from injury mods.

I'm pretty sure that resting-healing tests are exempt from wound modifiers, although I am AFB.

I'm fine with the general concept… not seeking timely care is dangerous. Why not simply require a Healing test (for the one who keeps running/ignores treatment), but the only effect is on a glitch? Now they're equal, except the non-healer doesn't gain anything.

Which is why you, as the GM, don't necessarily follow the glitch suggestions. The book says a glitch can be anything detrimental, and I would think, forcing your self to stand up tall and look strong, staring down the opposition (intimidation), even if a shot isn't fired, to be enough to "pull something" when the character takes a deep breath at the start of the staredown. I might give him some stun damage for a base glitch, or a box of physical for a critical glitch.

I happen to have my SR4A PDF handy, and you are correct that the base rules do not have injury mods. On p.252, though, there is the "Slower Healing" optional rule to use injury mods for Healing Tests. I do not use the second bullet point of only rolling BOD instead of BOD * 2 (even I think that is pretty bad!)

Since the Healing Test is an Extended Test, and if you are using the cumulative -1 per roll, wouldn't that be REALLY severe? Would you end up with crippling damage that can't be healed?

Healing is not really an extended test, per se. So you should never suffer the cumulative -1 to the roll.

While it is described as an extended test, I would have to agree that it shouldn't be held to the cumulative -1 penalty. My method is already gritty and dangerous enough, (body- wounds), that a cumulative penalty would completely remove healing from the game.

Weird pseudo-errata notwithstanding, the cumulative penalty is an *optional* rule for *some* Extended Tests, subject in all cases to the GM's judgment.

Indeed...

My fallback plan was essentially this. The slight problem with it is that if the character would have suffered a glitch anyway he's not really suffering any extra for his decision to keep running while injured.

I may be misunderstanding something, but with a negative to his dice pool (for being injured), it seems like he either needs to reduce his activity (limit the number of times he rolls dice) or increase his chance of failing and occasionally glitching. Increasing his wounds as a result of the glitch does not seem out of line to me if that's your goal.

If he is continuing to run without resting, then it strikes me that he's going to run out of edge sooner (due to the decreased dice pool) and it seems perfectly reasonable to not refresh edge on someone who won't rest/heal/recover.

Oh, now this I quite like. You can only refresh Edge if you're at full health. If this turns out to be too harsh, allow Edge refreshment with Stun damage but not Physical.

Interesting...

Ooh, that is kinda compelling. On the other hand, what if they can't rest/heal? What if it's a gritty survival-type game? I guess the GM could do it only when the player is violating Wheaton's Law.

I have my own set up for that. According to the Survival rules, you can`t heal unless you are in a safe place. I say, allow the person with the best survival skill roll a Survival+Intuition (2) test (teamwork rules apply), to set up a "safe" camp. Characters can use this camp to rest and heal. If you want to make it grittier, set the maximum number of boxes healed as the net hits on the Camp test. YMMV, however.

Sounds good. Still, I'd worry about the possible unintended consequences of dealing with Edge refresh. That's all. Given that Edge refresh is so much up to GM whim already, it's probably not an issue.

This I agree with as well. I generally refresh edge when I give a character a call for a new mission, or if they have do the work to get a new mission under way. Right now, my PC's are rescuing a girl from a fairly vicious gang, and they are doing it right, except using a forbidden aerial drone inside a military flight zone. The result of them doing it right, is that they found someone has a bounty on the gang leader, so mission 2, which will involve transporting the gang leader alive, will proceed shortly after mission 1. I will most likely refresh their edge, especially if they take a couple hours to rest, after they have him stored somewhere prior to delivery.

Huh. I am already doing this, since I don't refresh Edge unless (wounded or not) the PC gets a good night's rest. There are extenuating circumstances at times (I give instant rewards sometimes such as getting a spent Edge point back for roleplaying, extreme dice rolls, etc.), but my players are now familiar with that pacing of Edge refresh, so getting them to rest, while wounded or not, is not a problem! Even Mr. Lucky the Hacker wants his spent Edge refreshed!

It has also made for some tense situations where the player realizes he has wasted his Edge too early in the mission, and now needs it to save his life or the mission! Therefore, even Mr. Lucky thinks long and hard before using his Edge. Makes it more strategic, in my opinion.

I had to do this because on character generation the players realized how important a stat Edge is, so one character has 4 Edge, two characters are at 5, and one is at 7.

Here's a thought:

When performing strenuous activity¹ with at least -1 wound penalty, roll 7 (-wounds) dice. No hits or a glitch, take 1 stun (unresisted). Crit-glitch, take 1 physical (unresisted).
If reduced to 0 or fewer dice, take an immediate 1 stun (unresisted) and add 7 dice to the dice pool and roll as above (so -2 dice would be 1 stun, roll 5 dice).

It's going to be (largely) fair to every character type (only the beefiest of troll sams having damage tracks large enough to put them at 0 dice) and instead of penalizing based on low (body, will, edge) it's harsher for continuing to do jobs with higher amounts of damage.

¹Obviously not within minutes of having received wounds. Should be rolled after first aid has been applied and the characters have the opportunity to rest.

I'm just saying there's no particular reason to tie Edge to rest, or to anything physical. It's luck. You can explicitly get Edge back for pulling off crazy actions, not resting. I'm fine with the idea of no Edge while you're already 'pushing your luck' with untreated wounds, but tying it directly to *rest* seems arbitrary and contrary to the spirit of Edge.