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Machiavelli
Hi Buddies,

After a very weak character creation and the choice for the most karma-intense character class possible, i am now at a point where i really have to decide where my next karma points are going to. My char. is looking like this at the moment (190 karma heavy):

Race: Elf
Class: Mystic-Adept

Body: 3 (6) [sustained increase body spell - rating 3 spell-lock]
Strenght: 1
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2 ( 8 ) quickened increase reaction spell

Charisma: 7
Logic: 4
Intuition: 5
Willpower: 5

Initiative: 13 (16)+ 4 actions [quickened increase initiative spell]
Magic: 7 (6 on magic, 1 for adept powers)
Edge: 5
Initiate grade: 3

Metatechniques:
Masking
extended masking
quickening

Mentor spirit: Dark Mother (+2 on combat and heal-spells) / (Charisma-Willpower (3) test to avoid a minor quarrel become a major clash)

Adept powers:
Linguistics
Astral perception (gesture-geas)

Qualities:
Linguistics
Mystic-Adept
Mentor spirit
College education

Negative qualities:
Critter spook (or how it is called) (Shadow-spirits)
SINer (criminal)
Sensitive system
Allergy (Mycoprotein) moderate


Skills:
Influence group: 1 (spec. negotiation-bargaining)
Spellcasting: 5 (spec. combat)
Counterspelling: 5 (spec. combat)
Summoning: 5 (spec. fire)
Binding: 4 (spec. fire)
Infiltration: 1
Shadowing: 1
Bladed Weapons: 1 (for the claws)
Perception: 4
Assensing: 1
Athletics skill group: 1
- gymastics: 2 (spec. jumping)
Arcana: 1
Astral combat: 1
Enchanting: 2 (spec. alchemy)

Knowledge Skills:
Magical Theory: 6
Archeology: 4
Anthropology: 4
Geology: 3
Linguistics: 2
History: 4
Art: 2

Spells:

Manabolt/Manaball
Stundbolt/Stunball
Fireball
Imp. Invis.
Physical Mask
Detect Life
Influence
Mob-Mind
Levitation
Heal
Prophylaxe
Increase Reaction / Initiative / Body

…and some more i canīt remember right now.

Surge Powers:
- fangs
- claws
- natural poison (cyanide)
- dermal alteration

Surge (negative):
- extravagant eyes, skin, hair.


I have a talismonger-shop, a rating 6 "library", an unbound rating 6 spell lock (illusion), an unbound power-focus rating 3 and spell formulas for ALL known spells. I also have access to a rating 3 domain where the shop is located at the moment.

So I really have a very good basis to go on, but I really cannot decide. There are so many building-sites and so little karma. I am interested in an ally but I donīt know if the immense karma-costs equal the benefit. I could think of binding the power-focus (to finally have more than 13 dice for my primary skill) but as soon as I step into the next rating 3 background count it is useless again. So I thought about raising magic, but I should also learn some spells I still lack and quicken them (e.g. combat sense, deflect or else). During the last run cleansing and filtering metatechniques would have been handy….and so on and on and on. I also have a lot of skills at a near-useless rating, but raising attributes is more efficient. So I really donīt know what to do.

Please give me some advice what step would make most sense, gives most benefit etc.


Edit: missings spells are clairvoyance and nutrition. Nothing important.^^
Makki
Influence, Assensing, Infiltration, Strength, Agi

Bump all Languages learned via the adept power to 4, so the Linguist quality can bump them to 4(6)
Machiavelli
So the next logical step is to raise all these skills and attributes and then all my language skills (which are a lot)?
UmaroVI
I don't think I agree with Makki. You should focus on getting things that are cost-efficient and boost a LOT of your abilities, not on buying up bits and pieces of individual things.

Languages at 1 is fine. You only have Influence 1 at the moment, so it's not a drawback. As you eventually get more influence it may be worth raising some of the languages, but really I think it's inefficient to do either; you have 8 dice with social skills at the moment and that's fine as a secondary schtick. If you want better social skills, getting more PP and picking up Kinesics would be cheaper and better.

Here's where I would go:
0) That infiltration check is sad. Specialize in Urban (since I assume that like most runners, that is where most of your Infiltrating takes place). The most efficient way for you to boost it is going to be to learn Increase Agility and pick up a Sustaining Focus; it may be worth buying 1 more rank in it as well. Don't buy up your agility; you just don't get enough use out of it. However, you may want to skip this and just rely on magic, since you have a force 6 Illusion sustaining focus sitting around. It kind of depends on your game - but you may well get MORE mileage out of Physical Mask + good social skills than ninjutsu.
1) Bind that force 6 Illusion focus, and use it frequently to sustain Improved Invisibility on yourself. You may well also get good use out of Physical Masking yourself as someone who doesn't look like a magician. You might delay this until after 2 and 3 below; it depends, I guess.
2) Find yourself a magical group to join. You have good social skills to find one and a decent Arcana check to join. This will make all future initiations cheaper and it will pay off. It's also probably useful in general to belong to a society rather than go it alone.
3) Initiate three more times for Cleansing, Invoking, and Centering. Maybe not in this order, but these are all really good metamagics that synergize strongly with your current abilities. You're a quite good binder, you have access to a Domain, and with Invoking and Centering you can reliably bind some very powerful spirits...and with Charisma 7, you can have a bunch of them on standby for when things go bad. Centering is more drain and it scales with initiate grade. Cleansing is obvious and if you have Background Count problems a lot it will help.
4) At this point, I would start trying to get some good foci.

With power foci, go big or go home. You can only have one, and you pay full price to replace it. So don't bond that force 3 power focus unless you are VERY sure that you will never regret it and want a force 5 one later.

As far as sustaining foci go, it really does depend on what you want to focus on. I could see a Force 5 Health focus, and learn Increase Intuition - that will help a lot of your abilities.
Makki
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 13 2011, 02:57 PM) *
I don't think I agree with Makki. You should focus on getting things that are cost-efficient and boost a LOT of your abilities, not on buying up bits and pieces of individual things.


I'm more a flavor/down-to-earth guy. My chars are beyond average metahumans aka shadowrunners first (recognizable by having stats that get the job done) and field-specialists second. So, if you're not throwing decent dice in Infiltration, Perception, fighting, talking, you're not a shadowrunner imho. Sure you can get most things done by circumventing the obvious. Cost-efficiency is for starting characters and power gamers. Languages for example. He will obviously have a lot at lvl 1. There HAS to be one, the character likes and will try to improve (which costs no karma cost with the help of Nanites btw).
Agi. This guy has the fine motor skills of a troll. He's the least agile and least strong Elf in the world. He should be sitting behind a desk worrying when his nurse will show up, not running the streets against megacorps. He can do magic, but he will fail in everyday life like dropping books, playing catch with kids, opening a glass of pickles.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 13 2011, 03:30 PM) *
This guy has the fine motor skills of a troll. He's the least agile and least strong Elf in the world. He should be sitting behind a desk worrying when his nurse will show up, not running the streets against megacorps. He can do magic, but he will fail in everyday life like dropping books, playing catch with kids, opening a glass of pickles.

Sounds like the stereotypical wizard you'll encounter in some other games. I don't see the problem. As long as he can use magic to cope with the problems that causes in his professional endeavours, any team should embrace him like the high-powered magician he is, and take those limitations for granted. He's rather pink mohawkish with all that SURGEing anyway.
Irion
Could you please give us a short work around about the houserules you are using?

It is hard to suggest something, if you do not know what is out there.
How do quickend spells interact with wards, for example.
As it stands your char is unable to get through any ward without sounding the alarm. (Depending on the Force of the Ward and the Force of your spells, the spells might even get crushed.

Since you have allready taken this hit, one of the best things would be a quickend combat sense spell.
Even only 7 hits (force 7) would help a lot.

QUOTE
So I really have a very good basis to go on, but I really cannot decide. There are so many building-sites and so little karma. I am interested in an ally but I donīt know if the immense karma-costs equal the benefit.

The higher you go, the better the price to bang ratio.
Force 1-3: Waste of Karma. (8-24)
Force 4-5: Nice to have but quite expensive for what they offer. (32-40)
Force 6-8: A good deal of power per Karma (48-64)
Force 9: The highest a sane GM would ever allow, I guess. (64)
If your group is ok with invoking ally spirits....
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 13 2011, 05:59 AM) *
[ Spoiler ]

Spirits. Ally or simply bound. With some bound F6 or higher spirits you can get Aid Sorcery and get another 6 dice for Spellcasting Tests. You have a 7 Charisma - you should have one spirit for each of your spell types and another 2 for whatever you want.

Maybe a Spirit Pact, like a Power Pact or a Magic Pact.
Traul
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 13 2011, 02:30 PM) *
He can do magic, but he will fail in everyday life like dropping books, playing catch with kids, opening a glass of pickles.
Isn't that what spirits are for? grinbig.gif
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Irion @ Sep 13 2011, 05:40 PM) *
Could you please give us a short work around about the houserules you are using?

It is hard to suggest something, if you do not know what is out there.
How do quickend spells interact with wards, for example.
As it stands your char is unable to get through any ward without sounding the alarm. (Depending on the Force of the Ward and the Force of your spells, the spells might even get crushed.

Since you have allready taken this hit, one of the best things would be a quickend combat sense spell.
Even only 7 hits (force 7) would help a lot.


The higher you go, the better the price to bang ratio.
Force 1-3: Waste of Karma. (8-24)
Force 4-5: Nice to have but quite expensive for what they offer. (32-40)
Force 6-8: A good deal of power per Karma (48-64)
Force 9: The highest a sane GM would ever allow, I guess. (64)
If your group is ok with invoking ally spirits....

Basically we donīt have much houserules. Our GM strictly sticks to the books and the rules in them. All the optional rules are only used if they sound fair and are an advantage over the basic ones. We declined the use of possession spirits and traditions, because it seems to be overpowered from a "cost and result" point of view. We tried it with a starting character and ItnW and nearly maxed physical attributes from the beginning was too much "uber" for the GM.

Regarding sustained, quicked or spell-locked spells wards donīt interfere as long as you mask them with sustained masking. We interpret the rules more like they was in SR3 where the wording was a bit more clear than in SR4. This was the only reason i picked this metatechnique so early. Sustained spells are all force 6 because i still have some use left even if i step into BC. Also 6 was the max. i could mask. Now that i am proceeding in magic as an attribute, i would start to cast higher level magic for the next quickening-ritual.

Ally spirits are fine (also for the GM) and i am playing with the thought of summoning one at moderate level (probably 4) and give him some useful forms like a motorcycle for transport, a raven for surveilance and a male human for support when i have to go "in". If i know the rules right, he can grant "aid sorcery" for every category, so he would be a power focus and a teammate at the same time, right?

The power focus is a very powerful tool i am really thinking about too, but force 3 also seemed a little bit low for me. Besides that i donīt like to be dependend on item that could get lost or stolen. Force 6 would be powerful enough to ignore that feeling but if there is a better solution, i would go for it.

Right at them moment i think casting and quickening "combat sense" looks like the best ration to keep the char. alive until he earned more karma for the next improvement. But before that i would have to initiate to keep it masked. After that i would raise magic again and quicken "improved intuition" or "charisma". The first would increase initiative and perception (also astral perception) while the other one would raise the drain-stats and social skills. See the problem?^^ All is soooo expensive.
Irion
QUOTE
Regarding sustained, quicked or spell-locked spells wards donīt interfere as long as you mask them with sustained masking. We interpret the rules more like they was in SR3 where the wording was a bit more clear than in SR4.

So, yes. Combat sence would be the way to go. Or increase attribute (one of your drain attributes). (This is what I meant with possible houserules. I guess most groups handle it different)

QUOTE
The power focus is a very powerful tool i am really thinking about too, but force 3 also seemed a little bit low for me. Besides that i donīt like to be dependend on item that could get lost or stolen. Force 6 would be powerful enough to ignore that feeling but if there is a better solution, i would go for it.

I would prefere an ally spirit to an power focus. (ally spirits get stronger and more vertile the higher the force. Thats two for on, so to speak.
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 13 2011, 03:33 PM) *
Right at them moment i think casting and quickening "combat sense" looks like the best ration to keep the char. alive until he earned more karma for the next improvement. But before that i would have to initiate to keep it masked. After that i would raise magic again and quicken "improved intuition" or "charisma". The first would increase initiative and perception (also astral perception) while the other one would raise the drain-stats and social skills. See the problem?^^ All is soooo expensive.

Every mage build I have has the starting Drain Stats at 4 and the Increase (Attribute) for both drain stats. They hit augmented max and I eat a -4(-2) Sustaining Penalty with the aid of Psyche. It's not that bad.
Machiavelli
Thanks for all the replies. My short-term-goals are right now:

Finding a magical group, then...

1) Initiation - Filtering
2) Learing "Combat Sense"
3) Quickening "Combat Sense"
4) Initiation - Ally conjuration
5) Ally spirit

This alone should be around 100 karma, further planning would be too optimistic.^^
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 14 2011, 07:24 AM) *
Every mage build I have has the starting Drain Stats at 4 and the Increase (Attribute) for both drain stats. They hit augmented max and I eat a -4(-2) Sustaining Penalty with the aid of Psyche. It's not that bad.

How high is your dicepool for spellcasting and all the other important things like dodge etc.?
Makki
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 14 2011, 08:36 AM) *
Thanks for all the replies. My short-term-goals are right now:

Finding a magical group, then...

1) Initiation - Filtering
2) Learing "Combat Sense"
3) Quickening "Combat Sense"
4) Initiation - Ally conjuration
5) Ally spirit

This alone should be around 100 karma, further planning would be too optimistic.^^


hm, I think I won't fit into your group *g*
Machiavelli
Relax, i am the only freak.^^ If you are a normal SR-player with no ambitions for an "vampire-rating 14 initiate-overlord" with an army of ghouls, level 20 spirits and spirit pacts from here to seattle, you are GMīs-darling. wink.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 14 2011, 01:38 AM) *
How high is your dicepool for spellcasting and all the other important things like dodge etc.?

Base dicepool of 20 for Spellcasting, which I can raise by a variable amount by getting a Bound Spirit. That lets me assume 5 successes for spells I cast. You walk your attributes up: 8 dice to resist drain, so you increase Wil a bit, then you increase drainstat a bit more, then increase Wil a bit more, so on until both are at Max (this guy would be at 24 dice for drain). Now you can comfortably cast higher force spells, and cast them more often without taking drain.

On Psyche:
Assensing 4 (I may want to relook this...)
Counterspelling (Combat) 16(18)
Spellcasting 18
Blades (Spears) 12(14[Personalized Grip 15])

He has no dodge as he won't actually Full Dodge (he makes himself hard to see instead - spirits with Concealment, Combat Sense, decent Rea to start with, ect) and in melee he uses his Spear skill.

For ranged he has LoS spells, for melee he has a spear. He has 8/8 armor (street legal).

The scary part though is that he can use Compulsion, Fear, and Influence with 24 dice while sustaining those spells. For an additional -1 dicepool penalty to all the above he works at 4 IP also. For another -1 he can get ~5 hits on Combat Sense.

When he needs to, he can additionally get +1 Bod, +2 Agi, +4 Rea, +4 Str, +2 Int, +1 Log, +4 Wil, and +3 Perception all with no sustaining modifiers, at least 10 times "out of the box."

Oh, and he can realistically fly at Mach 4.993 or so.

EDIT:
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 14 2011, 02:03 AM) *
Relax, i am the only freak.^^ If you are a normal SR-player with no ambitions for an "vampire-rating 14 initiate-overlord" with an army of ghouls, level 20 spirits and spirit pacts from here to seattle, you are GMīs-darling. wink.gif

Actually that sounds weaker than my 400 BP starting character...
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 15 2011, 06:09 AM) *
Base dicepool of 20 for Spellcasting, which I can raise by a variable amount by getting a Bound Spirit. That lets me assume 5 successes for spells I cast. You walk your attributes up: 8 dice to resist drain, so you increase Wil a bit, then you increase drainstat a bit more, then increase Wil a bit more, so on until both are at Max (this guy would be at 24 dice for drain). Now you can comfortably cast higher force spells, and cast them more often without taking drain.

On Psyche:
Assensing 4 (I may want to relook this...)
Counterspelling (Combat) 16(18)
Spellcasting 18
Blades (Spears) 12(14[Personalized Grip 15])

He has no dodge as he won't actually Full Dodge (he makes himself hard to see instead - spirits with Concealment, Combat Sense, decent Rea to start with, ect) and in melee he uses his Spear skill.

For ranged he has LoS spells, for melee he has a spear. He has 8/8 armor (street legal).

The scary part though is that he can use Compulsion, Fear, and Influence with 24 dice while sustaining those spells. For an additional -1 dicepool penalty to all the above he works at 4 IP also. For another -1 he can get ~5 hits on Combat Sense.

When he needs to, he can additionally get +1 Bod, +2 Agi, +4 Rea, +4 Str, +2 Int, +1 Log, +4 Wil, and +3 Perception all with no sustaining modifiers, at least 10 times "out of the box."

Oh, and he can realistically fly at Mach 4.993 or so.

EDIT:

Actually that sounds weaker than my 400 BP starting character...

We have to discuss. ^^

First: give me please a more detailed list how you manage this dicepools. How high is the force of the bound spirits, does it pay off the costs for binding? One time aid sorcery is one wish.....

I have magic 6, skill 5 plus spec. means right at the moment 13 dices. If i manage to get a bound spirit force 5 i reach your 18 dices. Am i on the right way?

Why can your char. use fear, compulsion and Influence? Sounds like a nosferatur for me. Correct?

I also donīt understand the modifiers for attritutes you mention. Maybe a little background information would be helpful to understand you calculations.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 15 2011, 12:51 PM) *
Why can your char. use fear, compulsion and Influence? Sounds like a nosferatur for me. Correct?

I also donīt understand the modifiers for attritutes you mention. Maybe a little background information would be helpful to understand you calculations.

This smells of possession spirits. Considering it's Neraph you're talking, I feel right about 90% sure in that assumption.
Machiavelli
Possession is banned for PCīs in our game, in this case i wouldnīt have to think about it anymore.
Neraph
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 15 2011, 06:42 AM) *
This smells of possession spirits. Considering it's Neraph you're talking, I feel right about 90% sure in that assumption.

Incorrect, but thank you for the compliment.

It's a trade secret biggrin.gif

EDIT: Oh, his Spellcasting and Counterspelling are 4 lower temporarily.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 15 2011, 09:29 AM) *
Incorrect, but thank you for the compliment.

It's a trade secret biggrin.gif

EDIT: Oh, his Spellcasting and Counterspelling are 4 lower temporarily.


Nosferatu should also be banned... smile.gif
Machiavelli
Ok i checked your character sheet, but i still donīt get it. A mystic adept with magic 5 and astral hazing as a nosferatu. Means effectively magic 1 for spellcasting purposes, means additionally no spells above level 2 (already physical drain), real low stats and also your nosferatu abilities are nearly useless because they also rely on magic. Then pumped up with every street drug available...what about addiction? Besides that he might be acc. RAW; but no GM i know would allow him.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 15 2011, 07:57 PM) *
Ok i checked your character sheet, but i still donīt get it. A mystic adept with magic 5 and astral hazing as a nosferatu. Means effectively magic 1 for spellcasting purposes, means additionally no spells above level 2 (already physical drain), real low stats and also your nosferatu abilities are nearly useless because they also rely on magic.

Wrong. Besdie the pool for spellcasting and Adept Power Points, Magic is used as a whole. Said character can cast spells up to Force 10, while suffering physical drain from Force 5 upwards. Ditto for Nosferatu Powers.
Machiavelli
In which game?

Runners Companion:
Whatever the ambient mana conditions
are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4
background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number
of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background
count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened.

Street Magic:
Whether positive or negative, in game terms background
count reduces a character’s Magic attribute by its absolute value.

If background count reduces
a character’s Magic to attribute to
0 or less, he is rendered unable to
use any magical abilities within the
area. A background count-modified
Magic attribute counts for all uses
of magic, including dice pools and
limitations imposed on the Force
of spells or spirits.

At the gamemaster’s
discretion, paranormal critters
may also lose access to some of
their critter powers as a result of a
reduced Magic attribute.

Game...set...win. Thank you.
Mardrax
Ah, duh. Overlooked the Astral Hazing part. xD
Yeah... how does that work? 0_o
Machiavelli
I really donīt know. Besides that, he lacks the summoning skill...so no aid sorcery. I am NOT going to ask what use you get of "Binding" at rating 1 while you lack the other skills from the group.^^

Maybe drop Astral Hazing, this would make him playable. Also "Nasty Vibe" in addition to "glamour" doesnīt feel right. Acc. to RAW it doesnīt negate each other, but i would have problems playing this opposites.

WOuld you possibly mind posting your char. here too, so that the others know what i am talking about?
UmaroVI
I wonder if he's doing something loopy like trying to use Geomancy on his own background count? I am also curious to see this.
Machiavelli
Maybe we get a new discussion about the terms "aspected domain" and if the disadvantage might rather raise the magic skills than lowering it.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 15 2011, 02:56 PM) *
I wonder if he's doing something loopy like trying to use Geomancy on his own background count? I am also curious to see this.


Knowing what neraph has posted in the past, I wouldn't put it completely out of mind.

Also, as Machiavelli had said previously, such a character shouldn't be allowed. People have complaints about vampire's being overpowered for the cost, and Nosferatu seem worse. As soon as I saw the stats, I immediately banned them from all my games (though I still would use the PC rules for Nosferatu when I make NPC Nosferatu. This has yet to happen, though).
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 15 2011, 12:57 PM) *
Ok i checked your character sheet, but i still donīt get it. A mystic adept with magic 5 and astral hazing as a nosferatu. Means effectively magic 1 for spellcasting purposes, means additionally no spells above level 2 (already physical drain), real low stats and also your nosferatu abilities are nearly useless because they also rely on magic. Then pumped up with every street drug available...what about addiction? Besides that he might be acc. RAW; but no GM i know would allow him.

First off, thanks for ruining the trade secret. Secondly, with the Increase (Attribute) spells up you can easily roll those 4 successes (the maximum) for the drugs safely with a dicepool of ~15.

QUOTE (Machiavelli Posted Yesterday, 01:17 PM )
Game...set...win. Thank you.
'
Go read Essence Drain again. I can get to Magic 14 which is Magic 10 in the Hazing, and that means overcasting to F20.

QUOTE (Machiavelli Posted Yesterday, 01:41 PM )
I really donīt know. Besides that, he lacks the summoning skill...so no aid sorcery. I am NOT going to ask what use you get of "Binding" at rating 1 while you lack the other skills from the group.^^

Maybe drop Astral Hazing, this would make him playable. Also "Nasty Vibe" in addition to "glamour" doesnīt feel right. Acc. to RAW it doesnīt negate each other, but i would have problems playing this opposites.

WOuld you possibly mind posting your char. here too, so that the others know what i am talking about?

1) Calling rules. You can get the spirit to show up with that and then Bind it separately.
2) Keep the Hazing. Also, Nasty Vibe and Glamour are appropriate because the character is terrifying and alluring. Galadriel had something to say about this when Frodo offered her the ring.

EDIT: Left out some info.
Neraph
QUOTE
I wonder if he's doing something loopy like trying to use Geomancy on his own background count? I am also curious to see this.


QUOTE
Knowing what neraph has posted in the past, I wouldn't put it completely out of mind.

Also, as Machiavelli had said previously, such a character shouldn't be allowed. People have complaints about vampire's being overpowered for the cost, and Nosferatu seem worse. As soon as I saw the stats, I immediately banned them from all my games (though I still would use the PC rules for Nosferatu when I make NPC Nosferatu. This has yet to happen, though).


QUOTE ( @ Sep 15 2011, 01:59 PM) *
Maybe we get a new discussion about the terms "aspected domain" and if the disadvantage might rather raise the magic skills than lowering it.

If you want you can try and find the thread I had posted on this very subject (I'd search it but the next 3 days will see me working 36 hours...). You may not like the outcome but it is completely allowed by RAW.

And HunterHerne: "Shouldn't" doesn't mean "can't."
Machiavelli
First of all: sorry that i ruined your secret. Where exactly was the secret????

For the rest: Like i already pointed out (in the meantime i know your posts a little bit) the things you do are usually absolutely according to RAW, in situations where no absolutely clear RAW exists you "tend to bend" the rules until they fit you....what is basically no big problem for me because i am also a powergamer like you. What makes all theory a bit vague is the little problem galled "Gamemaster". Maybe you know this type of guy in your round too? I have created surge-monsters far away from your nosferatu and all the work is useless if the GM takes a look at the character sheet and simply says "no". So i learned the lesson that there is one side called "what can be done in theory" and the other, more realistic side "how much can i press out of the rules until the GM stops me". I am now on the second side of power and besides it makes more fun, it is also not that much waste of time.
Traul
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 16 2011, 06:04 AM) *
1) Calling rules. You can get the spirit to show up with that and then Bind it separately.

The bottleneck with free spirit binding is to get the spirit formula to begin with. That makes it more of a plot device than a valid character choice. What if the GM does not throw a free spirit at you?
Machiavelli
Agree.

My personal result: The whole character is practically unplayable. He can only go out on the streets if you have masses of preparation time (which is pure theory and not in-game-reality). You have to kill tons of people for full essence which could be a run for itself and to ensure not being hunted afterwards by….everyone. If you are going to cast magic or use your own abilities you need to raise magic first. Then you have limited time to do the job, need new food afterwards to refill lost essence and all this during night-times because you have a severe allergy to sunlight. But if you have a fetish for micromanagement, this nosferatu is your wet dream. wink.gif Then you could call spirits (if you have the proper material, which is a problem itself), try to bind them (which also could get a problem because of your nature) and all this while trying to keep up multiple high-level sustained spells for moderate attributes, the ability to walk in sunlight and a not so distinctive look. If you overcast it may not uncommonly cause high physical drain that cannot be healed by regeneration…..do I have to go on? I am not impressed.

Ah, one more thing: Astral Hazing looks efficient first, but it makes attempts to sneak through wards etc. impossible. Every mage, adept, critter etc. in your team is going to shoot you in the back as soon as possible to get rid of your aura. Besides that you are a pale, hairless freak with an aura of fascination and fear at the same time…so you donīt even have to think about running around unrecognized. And being suspicious for an infected is….let me say “counterproductive”. But this char. already doesnīt seem to be made as a team-player.
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 16 2011, 03:45 AM) *
Agree.

My personal result: The whole character is practically unplayable. He can only go out on the streets if you have masses of preparation time (which is pure theory and not in-game-reality). You have to kill tons of people for full essence which could be a run for itself and to ensure not being hunted afterwards by….everyone. If you are going to cast magic or use your own abilities you need to raise magic first. Then you have limited time to do the job, need new food afterwards to refill lost essence and all this during night-times because you have a severe allergy to sunlight. But if you have a fetish for micromanagement, this nosferatu is your wet dream. wink.gif Then you could call spirits (if you have the proper material, which is a problem itself), try to bind them (which also could get a problem because of your nature) and all this while trying to keep up multiple high-level sustained spells for moderate attributes, the ability to walk in sunlight and a not so distinctive look. If you overcast it may not uncommonly cause high physical drain that cannot be healed by regeneration…..do I have to go on? I am not impressed.

Ah, one more thing: Astral Hazing looks efficient first, but it makes attempts to sneak through wards etc. impossible. Every mage, adept, critter etc. in your team is going to shoot you in the back as soon as possible to get rid of your aura. Besides that you are a pale, hairless freak with an aura of fascination and fear at the same time…so you donīt even have to think about running around unrecognized. And being suspicious for an infected is….let me say “counterproductive”. But this char. already doesnīt seem to be made as a team-player.

QUOTE (Runners Companion, page 80)
They lose all body and facial hair...
(emphasis mine)
No. Nosferatu have no body hair, it does not say they are completely bald. First and easiest point of contention.

Secondly: to get all that essence there are two ways to do it: monster and polite monster. Monster is to feed on the SINless, draining people dry. Polite Monster is to get a Luxury Entertainment in your lifestyle that provides you with multiple, different prostitutes multiple times a day that you take 1 point from each, through sex. It's White Court versus Black Court.

The multiple high level spells sustained are a non-issue because he was built to sustain them. The drugs are also a non issue because of the auto-injectors built into his armor. The allergy to sunlight only works when you are in sunlight... not while you are in, for say, a vehicle with tinted windows. Or a building. And when you're planning on breaking the law you'd expect to do things at night anyways (although not in all cases). The "proper materials" for spirit Calling is why he has Enchanting, a Talislegger Contact, and Arcana - all the skills and resources needed to get anything a GM can throw at you (unless it's obscure telesma, like dragon pee or something [in which case the GM simply doesn't want you to do it]). Overcasting is again a non-issue because you have 24 Drain dice.

I don't see how having R4 BC makes it impossible to pass through a Ward. Also, the other mages, adepts, and critters can, you know, not be right next to me and not have to worry about my BC.

The last thing you said though is completely correct. If I take this character to Bogota, within weeks he's a demigod. He was designed to be a one-man army, and with very little additional effort he becomes one.

EDIT: Also, don't forget that with a trode net and the Manservant he can rig. Not amazingly, but he can still go to meetings or be ubiquitus during the day.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 17 2011, 01:46 AM) *
(emphasis mine)
No. Nosferatu have no body hair, it does not say they are completely bald. First and easiest point of contention.

Secondly: to get all that essence there are two ways to do it: monster and polite monster. Monster is to feed on the SINless, draining people dry. Polite Monster is to get a Luxury Entertainment in your lifestyle that provides you with multiple, different prostitutes multiple times a day that you take 1 point from each, through sex. It's White Court versus Black Court.

The multiple high level spells sustained are a non-issue because he was built to sustain them. The drugs are also a non issue because of the auto-injectors built into his armor. The allergy to sunlight only works when you are in sunlight... not while you are in, for say, a vehicle with tinted windows. Or a building. And when you're planning on breaking the law you'd expect to do things at night anyways (although not in all cases). The "proper materials" for spirit Calling is why he has Enchanting, a Talislegger Contact, and Arcana - all the skills and resources needed to get anything a GM can throw at you (unless it's obscure telesma, like dragon pee or something [in which case the GM simply doesn't want you to do it]). Overcasting is again a non-issue because you have 24 Drain dice.

I don't see how having R4 BC makes it impossible to pass through a Ward. Also, the other mages, adepts, and critters can, you know, not be right next to me and not have to worry about my BC.

The last thing you said though is completely correct. If I take this character to Bogota, within weeks he's a demigod. He was designed to be a one-man army, and with very little additional effort he becomes one.

EDIT: Also, don't forget that with a trode net and the Manservant he can rig. Not amazingly, but he can still go to meetings or be ubiquitus during the day.


Ok, letīgo nitpicking.^^

1) you are really master of RAW, per definition body and facial hair doesnīt include head hair, but you have seen the pictures of the nosferatu through all versions of the game? They are bald. So RAI beats RAW. It is a GM decision and i am quite sure that he is not letting you get away with this.

2) even if you be a nice monster, it may cause attention. You are committing a physical harm to the people through the use of forbidden magical abilities. I still donīt think that the GM will take it as easy as you expect it to be.

3) right, shadowrunners are intended to work at night, but how often does it happen that this ainīt working? Theory against reality.

4) BC of 4 who is moving through a ward is like an attack because it reduces the rating. You know, usually BC ainīt moving around. Therefore it causes attention to the creator.

5) your BC has an effective range of essence meters. Do i have to go on with the explanation? No team player, definitely. And as a single runner he is only barely effective to live. He should need servants to do everyday work while sitting at home until he is physically needed.

My opinion didnīt change at all. Unplayable, on most tables he doesnīt even survive the first look of the GM.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 17 2011, 02:41 AM) *
My opinion didnīt change at all. Unplayable, on most tables he doesnīt even survive the first look of the GM.


This ^^^. SO Much This ^^^. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 17 2011, 04:41 AM) *
Ok, letīgo nitpicking.^^

1) you are really master of RAW, per definition body and facial hair doesnīt include head hair, but you have seen the pictures of the nosferatu through all versions of the game? They are bald. So RAI beats RAW. It is a GM decision and i am quite sure that he is not letting you get away with this.

2) even if you be a nice monster, it may cause attention. You are committing a physical harm to the people through the use of forbidden magical abilities. I still donīt think that the GM will take it as easy as you expect it to be.

3) right, shadowrunners are intended to work at night, but how often does it happen that this ainīt working? Theory against reality.

4) BC of 4 who is moving through a ward is like an attack because it reduces the rating. You know, usually BC ainīt moving around. Therefore it causes attention to the creator.

5) your BC has an effective range of essence meters. Do i have to go on with the explanation? No team player, definitely. And as a single runner he is only barely effective to live. He should need servants to do everyday work while sitting at home until he is physically needed.

1) Maybe they all shave? A picture is definately not definitive of the description - have you seen the "revolver" in SR4A? Looks like a magazine-needing SA, not a cylinder revolver. Or maybe you've noticed all the really short trolls walking around? Trolls are actually as tall as this guy here, and are very rarely represented as such (they're more like basketball players). RAI never beats RAW without GM approval.

2) I didn't know sex was physical harm. I'm not saying I won't draw attention, just that you really have to stretch it to get that attention. It's more a "look how many chicas this guy beds a day!" as opposed to "Wow, this monster is a mass-murdering crazy-crazy!"

3) And again you fail to remember the Manservant. Anyone can rig, you know. And hell, you can take 1 Physical a minute easy. As soon as the run gets you into a building you don't have to worry about the damage anymore - same thing with the car ride out there and back. And, you know, there are things called "sewers." Your two-dimensional thinking is what makes this character unplayable in your mind.

4) Reducing the rating of a ward is "like an attack" only in that the Armor and Structure of said ward are reduced - this reduction does not come from an actual attack though. The creator of the ward is only informed when the war is attacked, not when it is simply reduced.

5) I disagree with most points. Yes, Astral Hazing is out to essence meters, but that does not disclude him from being a team player - in fact I have played him (slightly different stats - that one is the refined version) and a friend of mine is playing one as well. As a single runner he is more than capable of staying alive - he can fight, he can survive a fight, and he can most importantly control crowds. Those Powers he has nearly single-handedly will end most conflicts, and if used properly will take care of nearly all social interactions needed.
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 17 2011, 04:41 AM) *
My opinion didnīt change at all. Unplayable, on most tables he doesnīt even survive the first look of the GM.

And that is your opinion. And, as you so nicely pointed out, GM fiat is the only way he doesn't work.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 17 2011, 02:48 PM) *
And that is your opinion. And, as you so nicely pointed out, GM fiat is the only way he doesn't work.


I would actually say that GM Fiat is the only way the he does work. Not the other way around.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 17 2011, 08:48 PM) *
1) Maybe they all shave? A picture is definately not definitive of the description - have you seen the "revolver" in SR4A? Looks like a magazine-needing SA, not a cylinder revolver. Or maybe you've noticed all the really short trolls walking around? Trolls are actually as tall as this guy here, and are very rarely represented as such (they're more like basketball players). RAI never beats RAW without GM approval.

2) I didn't know sex was physical harm. I'm not saying I won't draw attention, just that you really have to stretch it to get that attention. It's more a "look how many chicas this guy beds a day!" as opposed to "Wow, this monster is a mass-murdering crazy-crazy!"

3) And again you fail to remember the Manservant. Anyone can rig, you know. And hell, you can take 1 Physical a minute easy. As soon as the run gets you into a building you don't have to worry about the damage anymore - same thing with the car ride out there and back. And, you know, there are things called "sewers." Your two-dimensional thinking is what makes this character unplayable in your mind.

4) Reducing the rating of a ward is "like an attack" only in that the Armor and Structure of said ward are reduced - this reduction does not come from an actual attack though. The creator of the ward is only informed when the war is attacked, not when it is simply reduced.

5) I disagree with most points. Yes, Astral Hazing is out to essence meters, but that does not disclude him from being a team player - in fact I have played him (slightly different stats - that one is the refined version) and a friend of mine is playing one as well. As a single runner he is more than capable of staying alive - he can fight, he can survive a fight, and he can most importantly control crowds. Those Powers he has nearly single-handedly will end most conflicts, and if used properly will take care of nearly all social interactions needed.

And that is your opinion. And, as you so nicely pointed out, GM fiat is the only way he doesn't work.


1) Oh cīmon....stay serious. Not this kind of argument. I can do it the same way like you do it: every single picture of a nosferatu in every novel, sorucebook and picture movie shows them bald, give me ONE single proof that i am wrong.

2) no sex ainīt physical harm, but reduces essence is. Reduced essence interacts with your metabolism and can be recognized (see drug addiction and essence loss) so it will be recognized at some time.

3) you have a very nice GM if he allows a manservant to show up into a run-meeting.

4) armor and structure IS reduced if force is reduced. So does it matter if the cause is an attack? If holes in your body appear where blood comes out, does it matter if the reason are bullets or a sickness?^^

5) he is mostly a big red target and no sane runner would accompany him. He cannot deal with any single kind of awakened runner, he is obvious like hell and only effective if prepared.

Besides that, i agree with Thymeaus to 100%. There is a big difference between "what can be done" and "what is playable". THis character is nothing else than a theoretical experiment to me.
Neraph
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 18 2011, 12:18 PM) *
1) Oh cīmon....stay serious. Not this kind of argument. I can do it the same way like you do it: every single picture of a nosferatu in every novel, sorucebook and picture movie shows them bald, give me ONE single proof that i am wrong.

2) no sex ainīt physical harm, but reduces essence is. Reduced essence interacts with your metabolism and can be recognized (see drug addiction and essence loss) so it will be recognized at some time.

3) you have a very nice GM if he allows a manservant to show up into a run-meeting.

4) armor and structure IS reduced if force is reduced. So does it matter if the cause is an attack? If holes in your body appear where blood comes out, does it matter if the reason are bullets or a sickness?^^

5) he is mostly a big red target and no sane runner would accompany him. He cannot deal with any single kind of awakened runner, he is obvious like hell and only effective if prepared.

Besides that, i agree with Thymeaus to 100%. There is a big difference between "what can be done" and "what is playable". THis character is nothing else than a theoretical experiment to me.

1) You know I quoted a rule for that, right? Here, let me show you exactly where: Runner's Companion, page 80, Nosferatu, third sentence. Also, body hair is different from head hair.

2) And when the subject is a prostitute they immediately link it back to a specific John?

3) Or you could be conference-called in the group's PAN (like other hackers), or providing surveilance (like other riggers).... Where in the rules does it say the whole 'running team must be present for each and every Johnson meet?

4) I still disagree with your assertion that BC is considered an attack. Regardless, the nosferatu himself does not need to go through a ward - spirits, drones, and teammates can do that. Hell, any shmuck with a Command program of 6, a half-decent commlink, and a serviceable drone is a Command rigger.

5) Disagree with most of these points. They are very near-sighted of you if you can't understand Concealment, rigging, auto-injectors, Fear, Compulsion, Influence, and the many other tricks he has up his sleeves.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein Posted Yesterday, 08:26 PM )
I would actually say that GM Fiat is the only way the he does work. Not the other way around.

The same can be said of any 400 BP character created exactly with the BP creation rules, and honestly I don't know how you can possibly come to this conclusion. The character is simply the combination of spells, drugs, and nosferatu Powers (and drone/rigging, where applicable).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 18 2011, 12:35 PM) *
The same can be said of any 400 BP character created exactly with the BP creation rules, and honestly I don't know how you can possibly come to this conclusion. The character is simply the combination of spells, drugs, and nosferatu Powers (and drone/rigging, where applicable).


Actually, it can't. A Nosferatu is not like any other character, and you know it. Quit being disengenuous. The character exists off of the FEEDING of Essence (as well as a requirement for the Ingestion of Blood... And at 5% Body weight, that is a LOT of blood: 7.5 lbs at 150 Lbs of Vampire) from LIVING BEINGS. You cannot say that this causes no harm. It does. They have a Disease that can be communicated (THEY ARE INFECTED), and are Carriers unless they take a quality that says they are infertile. That alone makes it GM Fiat whether he wants such a character at his table. No Other Non-Infected has this by default. So, an Infected Character is VERY DIFFERENT from any other 400 BP Character. NO OTHER Character Type has the Issues of an Infected character. And. You. Know. It.

Is it allowed? Maybe at your table. Personally, I have never played at a table that allows Infected. And I am happy for that. If I wanted to play a Vampire, I would play OWOD/NWOD. smile.gif
Stalag
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Sep 13 2011, 05:59 AM) *
Race: Elf
Class: Mystic-Adept

Body: 3 (6) [sustained increase body spell - rating 3 spell-lock]
Strenght: 1
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2 ( 8 ) quickened increase reaction spell


So do you actually have a good back story explaining why you have such a severe muscle deficiency that people would consider you handicapped or did you just figure you didn't need them and you'd get more points this way?

..considering implementing a house rule that starts everyone with "average" scores and only allows them to reduce one or two if they include a convincing back story.
Stalag
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Sep 15 2011, 01:31 PM) *
Ah, duh. Overlooked the Astral Hazing part. xD
Yeah... how does that work? 0_o


Only take Astral Hazing if you want to make an anti-mage (goes well with Arcane Arrester). I've played one before and, basically, you spend much of the run with the groups mages staying away from you and "not really caring" if you die. And just let there be some reason for you to sit in one spot for an extended period of time.....

On the plus side you're damn near magic immune so if you're in a group of non-mages you could be pretty popular spin.gif
Makki
QUOTE (Stalag @ Sep 19 2011, 08:53 AM) *
So do you actually have a good back story explaining why you have such a severe muscle deficiency that people would consider you handicapped or did you just figure you didn't need them and you'd get more points this way?

..considering implementing a house rule that starts everyone with "average" scores and only allows them to reduce one or two if they include a convincing back story.


my point exactly. He needs a wheelchair and a nurse. And probably increased lifestyle cost due to daily medication.

regearding your consideration. I once tries to redo the chargen, where everyone starts with average attributes and you get some points back for reducing an attribute, but not as much as increasing one costs. Didn't manage, though..
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Stalag @ Sep 19 2011, 07:53 AM) *
So do you actually have a good back story explaining why you have such a severe muscle deficiency that people would consider you handicapped or did you just figure you didn't need them and you'd get more points this way?

..considering implementing a house rule that starts everyone with "average" scores and only allows them to reduce one or two if they include a convincing back story.
The second one. I build her as a boookworm, so this could be at least some minor explanation.^^
Amazeroth
Though I really dislike things arguments like "maybe they all shaved their hair", I really see no problem with playing an infected character and hell I would be thouroughly dissappointed by any GM who would not allow me to play one. I probably would leave the group, because just not allowing things is weak in my opinion.

QUOTE
If I wanted to play a Vampire, I would play OWOD/NWOD.
Assuming people on this forum want to play Shadowrun, this makes no sense at all here.
Irion
QUOTE
Assuming people on this forum want to play Shadowrun, this makes no sense at all here.

It does, if you consider that he does not consider infected to be part of playing shadowrun.
(Though I have to admit that I like the infected in SR more than I like WOD, because they really have (rulewise) to deal with the beast within and can not just get around it. )
Stalag
QUOTE (Amazeroth @ Sep 19 2011, 07:04 AM) *
Though I really dislike things arguments like "maybe they all shaved their hair", I really see no problem with playing an infected character and hell I would be thouroughly dissappointed by any GM who would not allow me to play one. I probably would leave the group, because just not allowing things is weak in my opinion.

Assuming people on this forum want to play Shadowrun, this makes no sense at all here.


Well it really depends on the story the GM is telling and how true to the world he wants to stay. While an allowable "sub-type" for a character don't forget that they are still feared/hated in much of the world and generally considered a health and safety risk and killable on-sight in most places. So there's a very real possibility everyone who realizes what you are, including your Fixer and the other PC's, aren't going to want you around.

Now if your gaming group wants to spin SR into a Buffy/Angel game where the in-crowd has a "token vampire" they keep around because they're almost as silly powerful as Free Spirits then that's up to them. I do believe you should get the whole groups buy-in before playing an infected though.

On the reverse side, a group of all-infected could make from some interesting gameplay.
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