Ten bucks says Zod's player makes a manipulation mage after Zod gets iced by one.

Call. I'll add another 10 bucks if it's a possession mage.

You don't think an Inhabitation Ally Spirit? Oh, they're probably BPgen, nevermind

Assuming you have your peripherals set up in your PAN to start with.

They're set up in a PAN at the very least. Smartguns need Smartlink need Image Link, after all.

Even if you're a nutjob who runs cables from gun to eyes, there's a max number of cables possible; eventually, you need a router, which is all that a PAN is.

You do not need a PAN for that, though.
And that also assumes that you are mandating the use of a Smartgun.

… The premise assumes that, crazyface. See: "Also, even if you turn off your comm your Smartlink can still be hacked". Unless you're 'using' the Smartlink without a Smartgun, I suppose.

The truly paranoid just use full-auto with tracers and a laser sight. And disable wireless functionality in their guns entirely.

It just ammuses me how many assumptions are made when it comes to the world/environment. There are alternatives to having a PAN. Some of them are useful, and others are not.

In the Smartlink/Gun Scenario:

1. You have them all routed thorugh the PAN. Probably the most likely.
2. You have them skinlinked thorugh your DNI'd Datajack, Not unheard of.
3. You still are a slave to old tech, and you use Induction pads and no wireless; I Still have a character or two who use the old tech.
4. You don't use the Smartlink/Gun Combination at all, and opt for Laser Sights instead (After all, how many firefights happen outside of 50 Meters?)
5. You don't care about using such equipment at all and use something else entirely.

There are alternatives.

Maybe we should collectively design a Basic Runner Competence Challenge? A batch of tests to measure if a character is able to survive daily life as a Runner?

The idea is that most of the tests should be a cakewalk for a medium-powered character; climbing on a building, dealing with a mugger, getting past a police checkpoint, surviving a script-kiddie with your bank account intact and so forth.

None of these tests should be considered life-threatening to normal characters. Can't complain that they're unreasonably hard or vicious; this isn't the CR 15 monster, these are the "your level -2 CR" problems. But they all test some aspect of your character (magic, matrix, combat, stealth, social, athletic), to find weaknesses.

If you can't pass some test on your own, it's time to worry. If you can't cope with a F4 spirit with a mind-affecting power, worry. If your initiative sucks, and your damage resistance sucks, the mugger might happen to drop you first, even though you've got 30 dice to kill him as soon as you get a turn. If you can't escape from a burning building, you're a lousy shadowrunner.

We have to make assumptions because we have a limited amount of details and no one (except possibly you) wants to read a wall of text that states the obvious.

I'll enter http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/generic.htm for that test. If there's a hole in that character, I want it plugged.

I should sit down and try to work out what to change to give him a Battle Buddy Basic commlink instead of what he has, but I'm not sure it's worth the nuyen.

Or you should think about running tactics that do not involve setting buildings on fire, boring as it may sound

EDIT: (suoq's char)

OK, this has to be a bug with Chummer. How come all of you guys have the Flight skill?

You have a bike and no helmet. Does that count as a hole?

It's Chummer. Ignore it. There may be a setting somewhere to hid it but I've never bothered to look for it.

I follow the Snow Crash theory of helmets.

I like to read...

As for the Character, Suoq, I like it... I do have a question, though. I do not use Chummer, so I am curious. What are the P Mods and R Mods columns for? What do they represent?

Rating modifier and Pool modifier. So Qualia will give a +1 Pool Modifier (P. Mod) on all Intuition skills. Off the top of my head, I can't think of something that gives a rating modifier, but that's just my mind going blank.

How is this not a PAN? That's four devices right there, two if you don't count the Skinlink modules as separate devices. Two is enough to constitute a network though, and they're most definitely on your person. Same holds true for induction pads.

PAN is generally discussed as your Comlink as a Hub to manage connections. This does not use that. It is a direct link from gun, skinlinked to the DNI Datajack and hardwired to the Image Link. It never once passes into our out of your comlink. Nor is it accessible from your comlink. And no, I do not usually count the Skinlink Modules as seperate from what they modify.

The induction pads are Direct Link, with no Wireless, so again, no PAN. You cannot remote hack an Induction Pad Smartlink System. No Wireless.

True enough though, SR4A actually defines PANs as wireless. How shortsighted.

Heh...
It is what it is. It is pretty easy to remove any wireless shennanigans (Dare I say Brazillian) that you wish to avoid, especially with Cyber interfaces and connectivity. Not that every character will care to do so, mind you, but it is an available solution.

I tend to have most of my hardware savvy characters with enough protections to have it not matter all that much (and those that aren't don't have anything of consequence in their 'links anyways). Yes, they are mostly speedbumps, in the long run, but they are effective. Heck, even Strong Encryption (with a paltry 1 Minute Interval) will stop most, if not all, Combat Hacks in their tracks.

Psh, whatever. PAN is 'your gadgets, data-hooked together', by whatever means.

From a certain standpoint, I'm still not sure that they aren't. It could easily be that even basic wired plugs (for those retro dudes) come with Signal 0 wireless built-in (for debugging/backup/standards). One could argue that even a wired device is still an matrix device and therefore has a signal. (Yeah, I'm not buying RAW in either direction on this one, play it any way you want. I'm not defending the position, I'm just soaking it in gas and tossing it on the coals to see if they're hot.)

Honestly, I could see some tiny bit of logic behind that. Plug in cables to your retro, vacuum tube, analog sound system and they communicate quality of connection using a weak wireless signal. Would certainly make debugging wired connections easier.

Not to mention that skinlink *is* wireless. See Unwired p59 for explicit rules that the PAN is all your crap, regardless of connection type. It does have a hub, but that's because the only alternative is single-way dedicated connections (gun wired to eyes). Which is only for luddites.

P.Mods are apparently mods to your skills coming from implants and/or adept powers. Notice that he has Tailored Pheromones 3 and P.Mod +3 to all Influence skills.

Maybe, but those Luddites cannot be hacked now can they?

Saw that, but was not positive. Was curious what the Tags were. What the P(ool) and R(ating) meant. Thanks for all the replies.

I'd say "not likely to be hacked". There's always the technomancer echo (the one with the skinlink rereq) that allows a technomancer to pull anyone into the matrix and I'm not sure how I'd rule if someone convinced me to put a skinlink on a micro drone with gecko coating. In theory, if such a drone lands on the back of the luddite's coat and is allowed to remain there, can the luddite be hacked through it?

Both devices that wish to (or would rather not, in this case) communicate with eachother need a Skinlink module to do so through skinlink. So no.
The Echo you're thinking of (Resonance Trodes) works fine to drag the subject into hot VR, but doesn't allow hacking of the device per se. The normal Skinlink echo though, does, as long as he physically touches eiher the gun or the eye directly.

You can't use the skinlink in the drone to connect to the cyberware implanted in the person? I don't know that to be true and I wouldn't mind a page number to help me understand why it's one way or the other. Why would unfriendly skinlinks not be able to do what friendly skinlinks can do?

You would Need a hardwire into the Luddite. Unless you can accomplish that, then no. The Technomancer might do it, if he could actually come into contact with the device (and has the Skinlink Echo), which he cannot if it is implanted (He has to touch it). Now, the trick to bring the character into VR is not something that can likely be avoided (Resonance Trodes?). But that is not hacking the hardware at that point, that is hacking the wetware.

suoq, it's pretty straightforward: skinlink connects to other skinlinked devices, that's all. Cyberware is not inherently skinlinked.

TJ, yes, but luddites are stupid and not worth hacking in the first place.

Touching a fully implanted device just means you need to push harder.
Also, arguments could well be made about implants being little more than skin-deep, since normal skinlink has no issue whatsoever working through clothing.

Suoq:
In order for two entities to communicate with eachother, both need to be able speak in a way the other understands. If the target device has no Skinlink Module it can neither understand or speak Skinlink.
Cyberware just has DNI and standard wireless capability default, the latter of which can be turned off.

Been suggested already and ignored.



Your own player has been saying to challenge the group multiple times Hyphz, what is the problem? Don't make me rename you as Nancy or Courtney!

You can't keep tying your own hands out of fear, hold back from the player's ASKING for it because it's logical that they win without any real threats, and then come here and complain there just isn't a reasonable challenge.



I'm just going to let him/her talk for the both of us. (Yea right, I never shut up)

This is a new one to me so help me through this. In order to connect cyberware to a skinlinked PAN, either the ware has to be skinlinked (is that possible?), some DNI for the character has to be skinnlinked (again ?) or wireless must be used.

I'm trying to sort out what this means for (for example) cybereyes and skinlinks.

Okay...

1. Ware is wireless by default, so, in theory, you can connect directly to your PAN through the Signal 0 Wireless. (Still not sure why you would want to do so, but no worries).
2. Your Ware can be connected through DNI to a Skinlinked Datajack to connect to your PAN.
3. Can you connect a Skinlink Module directly to Cyberware? I would say you could, but, again, why would you want to do so. Connecting to your Datajack and then through that would be much more effecient. And of course, if you are doing that, why not just use the inherent Wireless Capabilities of the ware? *Shrug*

Some ware is handy to have access too in your PAN if you are using things like Tacnets. And, Yes, you could cenceivably install a Skinlink Module as part of your Cybereye package and have it synch up to your PAN. If I was going to go that route, I would still go through the Datajack interface, personally. And that is assuming that you go with the belief that you can apply your Skinlink Module to Cybernetics. They ARE able to be added by RAW, but not everyone will likely agree... here is the Quote:



Hard to argue that Cyberware are not electronics, to some degree at least.

It's not quite clear what happens with the skinlinked datajack <-DNI-> cyberware bridge. DNI is not a Matrix link. It works for some applications (routing sensory info, etc.), but it hardly means you can hack it.

True... It is a bit nebulous.

Late to join but some things to consider:

For Kaz, does the "Vaju" have any illusion ability? Lets say Kaz took a hit, then the spirit took him over to heal him and thus grant immunity to normal weapons. It also throws up an illusion to make things look realistic after all none of them got close to inspect in person right?


For the ambush, ok the Kenran-kai sniper should of seen Zod making his way to a sniper position and alerted the rest of their team of those activities. If not the sniper then someone performing overwatch. These people are a group and are likely sharing information in some fashion. Here is an example scenerio:

Zod takes out the guards, Sniper takes a shot at Zod (ok, aim + shot) Lets assume at this point they want to do a capture / torture / question someone. Air-burst flash bang from a drone-tripod concealed grenade launcher (Forgot how we made them, but the GM rigged up a "package" to make a very basic remote-control gun on a tripod, or a sensor auto-turret). If not the tripod then some guys hiding outside or a nearby vehicle which would have been on alert thanks to overwatch. Keep in mind if this is a warehouse ambush that they WILL have guys outside in the event their target flees. Which will include vehicles for persuit. They want the target dead, a 1 trick trap is doomed to fail.
Claymores! oh the fun of carefully laid claymores to make a "killzone" for a perimiter. Passive sensors that only explode if a certain signal is present OR in the fun case if a signal is missing (not really usefull here but has situations)

For extended tests and finding a node my GM would do a single roll (secret, modified edge ability as success was a "feeling" of confidence. Basically how quickly I was seeing my teams nodes or not) and from there as long as I was actively scanning it would show up after X rounds of coming into play. For example if 4 hits was the roll, then I would know about new nodes 4 turns after they enter the scan area.

Did the Yaks know Kaz had a spirit with him? if so they would have had counter-measures, or heck even if they didn't having a mage handy there should have been one on retainer (astral travel is fast remember).


The best suggestion I can give at this point is to make character sheets (or detailed reference cards) for important NPCs ahead of time. Even if they never get used that session they can always be re-purposed. Doing this ahead of time will implant a general idea of what resources they have at their disposal. Also keep in mind that there are other things going on in the SR world besides what the players are interacting with; as others pointed out a siren in the distance coming closer is equally likely to be heading to them as the gang war going on 5 blocks over.

Just as a suggestion, but maybe you should just ask the players what class they want to play and hand them the appropriate sample char. the prefabbed campaigns should work well with them challenges wise. You are all beginners after all.

Duh. That would mean that the devs actually talk to each other.

The sample characters are horrendously bad! If anything I've heard about available modules and campaigns is true, then they are designed to be WAY too hard for those useless sample characters.

I've run several sessions of several Missions adventures, and in each of them more than half the party (if not the entire group) was running archetype characters from the core SR4A book. Everything went just fine. Some adventures are aimed at starting characters, some aren't; obviously using them in a campaign set up for experienced characters would result in a hojillion TPKs, but generally speaking most of the archetypes can hold their own in stuff aimed at new 'runners.

This... I have played several Archtype characters. They all work out pretty well.

Players generally tend to be far less attached to characters they didn't make themselves. Also, while these guys are still learning, they are at the level where they can look at a sample character and say "This sucks. I could do way better than this."

Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if you used some of the sample characters from the threads here, or used some of UmaroVI's archetypes. But the basic archetypes in the book are bad. And not so much from a powergaming perspective - some of them, while not optimized, are survivable. But from a black trenchcoat perspective, a lot of them are seriously lacking in secure commlinks, fake IDs, and skills that should be essential for any runner.

There are, but I seem to recall it being said of Zod that he has a smartgun.

Also, Zod should be tazed. Body + Willpower (3) Test or he pretends he's a fish out of water, even if he reduces all the stun.

Probably something like this:

• Ultimax HMG-2
  
  • Mods
    
    • Smartgun System
    • Pilot Upgrade Rating 6
    • Safe Target System
  • Top Mount: Guncam
    
    • Camera Upgrades
      
      • Image Link
      • Smartlink
      • Flare Compensation
      • Low Light
      • Thermographic
      • Ultrasound
      • Vision Enhancement Rating 3
      • Vision Magnification
  • Under Mount: Smart Firing Platform
  • Accessories: Weapon Commlink

If you're feeling particularly nasty slap a Chameleon Coating and a Flying Propulsion System on top of that

The way propulsion, weapon comm, pilot, etc. interact with the smart platform makes a lot of your mods redundant there.

ah - yea, I guess the weapon comm would be redundant. I think I see what you mean about the smart platform now that I read it again. The platform (ie tripod) is technically a drone so the smartgun doesn't need a pilot upgrade (though it wouldn't hurt the platform itself to have a better one). However, it could be amusing to have the platform and smartgun system argue over who to shoot first .

I wasn't sure about the Guncam - Smartgun systems work without one, but I didn't think a Pilot could aim at a target without some form of sensor.