Wait, let me get this straight, TJ. You interrupted Karma to point out that he's not only right (coating>suit), but the coating is *also* better in a bunch of other ways? It's like he said, 'this sandwich is delicious,' and you slapped him and shouted, 'no, it's SUPER delicious!'

No, Karma was saying that they were identical in function (And he even pulled Quotes to try and back that argument up). They are not Identical in Function, and even you know that. One is a SUBSET of the other, they are NOT EQUAL.

After reading this thread (or at least the vast majority of it) and discussing it with my GM our rule on this situation was simple (and quite RAW). If the description of the effect states it has a combat modifier then it does, if it doesn't state such a modifier then there is no modifier. Keeps it all very simple, breaks down to RTFM.

-D

Yes, TJ, except they're identical as far as it matters. He wasn't arguing that the coating wasn't better. He was arguing that the suit was 'obsolete' (= worse). Again: 'SUPER delicious' doesn't refute 'delicious'. That's what 'useless quibble' means.

Yeah, the entire point was, why bother with the Chameleon Suit, when you can get the same effect on other armor suits?

It's like, you have a Red Bike. It's Red, but it's only available in that one model of Bike. Alternately, you could get any other Bike and slap a Red Coating on it and enjoy the benefits of Red without the restrictions of being stuck with the one model. Why then, would you ever get the Red Bike?

Okay, TECHNICALLY they are not IDENTICAL, one being an armor mod and the other being an actual suit of armor. So what? They occupy the same functionality role as far as the game mechanics go in every way that MATTERS. What was the point of nitpicking other than to be pedantic?

And the entire conversation is about cloaking armor. Why bring up all the other stuff?



-k

Personal Choice...

You should really read the exchange again, then. I said that Ruthenium was not the SAME as a Chameleon Suit. KarmaInferno said it was. Now yes, they both can have the same effect in a subset of circumstances, but that does not, nor will it ever, make them EQUAL.

And that difference just doesn't matter.

As I said, pedantry.




-k

And he was right, TJ, because context matters. Stalag's the one you slapped, and his point was that the coating totally supersedes the Chameleon Suit. This is correct. Correcting his correct statement is quibbling. I can't believe we're doing this.

But it DOES matter, Karma... Boiling Ruthenium down to a single use does the technology an injustice. YOU may not care about the rest of its applications, but others (including me) just might. It is so much more useful than just as a "Predator-Like Hidey effect." If all it was ever good for was as an Armor Mod, there would not be any other use for it. The fact that there are many uses for it shows the lie.

Oh facriss. No one said the extra abilities of ruthenium *never* matter. They don't matter *in* a comparison between the coating and the C. Suit that concludes the *suit* is worse. The ruthenium could make you fly, and the conclusion would still be that the suit is worse.

You really are funny somtimes, Yerameyahu, you know that?
No worries...

A Chameleon Suit is nothing more than a full-body set of armor with Ruthenium Polymers. There's nothing different about it, a Chameleon Suit is one application of Ruthenium Polymers and it seems the only reason it exists as a separate piece of gear is because Ruthenium Polymers are covered in another sourcebook.

Chameleon Suit = Body Armor with Ruthenium Polymers. There's nothing different about it. At all. In any way, shape, or form. You wanna turn your body into a billboard? You can do it with either one with equal ease. It's not apples and oranges. They're exactly the same. The extras are simply spelled out in the more detailed sourcebook.

It's right there in black and white. SR4A, p. 326, Chameleon Suit: "A full body suit made from ruthenium polymers."

Who said anything about the other applications? Only you.

And guess what? All those other applications? You can do with either the suit or the armor mod.

I wasn't discussing any other applications before now. They were more or less irrelevant to the conversation. I did not say they do not exist, just that they don't matter here.

Okay, sorry, I lied. I noted earlier you can use Ruthenium Polymers to make a strobing lightshow of a suit.




-k

And yet, also right there on page 326, it talks about normal clothing with said fibers interweaved in them for other purposes.

Yes, people also have ruthenium polymers woven into their normal clothing for recreational purposes. So what? That doesn't mean you can't do the same thing with a Chameleon Suit; you just can't turn completely "invisible" by weaving a handful of strands into your t-shirt.

Wow, Karma, I never said that YOU lied (or anyone else for that matter).... I said that the fact that the technology has many more uses shows that using them for their Chameleon Effect is not there only function. If that was their only function, there would be no other uses described, and Thus the Lie is revealed. Admittedly, now that I look at it, Truth would have been a better word. Apologies.

TJ, you're a madman. Are you just trolling tonight? You're deliberately (or not?) ignoring all normal human concepts of context and implicature. You can't go up to people comparing red and green apples, and say, 'that's not red, it's *crimson*'.

Agreed...

Heh.... Not intentionally, no. If that is how it comes off, perhaps I should just go to bed. It has been a long day.

Nobody said there were no other functions. We were discussing one particular function. That is all.

In any case, what, exactly, can a Chameleon Suit do that the Chameleon Coating cannot?




-k

Scream to anyone standing nearby that you're an infiltrator? I don't buy that making it display some other form of clothing would be convincing enough to fool much of anyone

But fooling people is what it does!

Chameleon Suit costs 8,000 and gives a protection value of 6/4.

Ruthenium add-on costs 7,500 by itself. Plus chameleon suit is 10R while the Ruthenium add-on is 12R.

Cost effectiveness?

Not really. Unless you need an extra coating for the helmet, the Urban Explorer Jumpsuit with helmet, costs 8050¥ and offers 6/8 Protection. Since there is no description of the helmet, there needn't even be the problem of the exposed face.

But urban explorer doesn't have ruthenium. I think the chameleon suit is still viable & useful as a suit because it has protection & the coating.

Saint, he was quoting the price for the Urban *with* ruthenium. It costs 500¥ otherwise.

Or 550¥ with the helmet.

Ah... ok.