So a Chameleon suit imposes a -4 check on perception tests. Seems like it should also impose a penalty on ranged attackers shooting at the wearer? Cross referencing with the visibility modifiers, looks like -4 equates to heavy fog etc... which I suppose could seem about right, a fairly big penalty ala predator style, but reducible with the right eyewear etc.

Does this sound reasonable to folks? I am doing this right?

Cheers for any replies in advance.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that: once you've seen where the character is, I think you should be able to track him and shoot him just like any other target.

At least, that's how I play it: once a character has noticed the target, he can shoot without any penalties. This is also for game balance reason: a permanent -4 modifiers to people shooting at you is far too interesting for just 5000 nuyen.

Yeah I am kind of thinking that if the -4 is going to apply in combat too, I would increase the cost or availability of the suit. Otherwise I can see just about all my players getting one. I dunno.

we have always used it like that. And Concealment works the same. Anybody trying to attack you has to make a Perception check with a threshold of 1 for ranged combat and 0 for melee combat.
the Perception test costs
no action when using passive perception with an additional -2 modifier for being distracted
or
a simple action with an additional modifier of +3 for actively looking.

According to RAW your conclusion is correct. The text implies only penalties on perception tests, if ranged or close combat would have been affected, it would have been statet. HOWEVER if you take a short look on the spell "camouflage" (or similar???) it cloaks the target of the spell with a camouflage pattern and even if you can see him, you still get a penalty on ranged attacks. So you can argue if the chameleon suit should imply such a modifier, too. In my opinion, chameleon suit is like predator-cloaking, camouflage is one or two steps below that....

Well, if light smoke or dim lighting can give you a penalty to shooting, it would make sense that not being able to see your target by other means would also be appropriate.

Not sure how balanced it mgiht be, tho.

The chameleon thing is a restricted armor/mod that can only be applied to someone wearing a full body covering.

Wearing full body armor is serious enough that the character should get some combat benefit on top of the measly 6/4 protection that can alternately be provided by wearing an armor vest under your shirt.

It would also result in more of what should happen logically, people hosing down an area with wide bursts because they saw a blurry figure.

Camouflage does not work by making something less visible. It merely confuses the mind to not register the camouflaged person/object as a person/object but as part of the environment. Poor visibility makes everything less visible.

Camouflage makes decisionmaking (i.e. where to point your weapon) harder, poor visibility makes executing your decision more diffcult (i.e. to actually point the gun where you want it to point).

Why the Camouflage spell gives a penalty to attack tests, I have no idea.

I've tried to convince my friends of ruling like this once, but they all disagreed with me...
Since one of my first RPG's ever was GURPS, I still think it makes total sense that chameleon coating should give a penalty to ranged attacks.

I don't see why not. If you can't make out the exact area the person is because he is blurred by smoke or blurred by camouflage, the effect is the same - you can't see the target properly. I've always assumed that Camo, Ruthenium Polymers, the Camo spell, and Concealment are "Visibility Modifiers." We can chalk up the debate to the shoddy way bonuses are handled in SR though... in the Other Game these would probably be listed as giving Visibility Penalties.

The point is that camouflage does not make you any less visible. Light reflected off you in camo dress will travel just as well to my eyes as the light reflected off a clown costume. The camouflage will not make it more difficult for me to point at a specific location like for example 5m north, 1,m up. Whether this actually is your location was determined by the penalized Perception test. If however smoke diffuses light or there is less light to be reflected in the first place it will be harder to find the aforementioned location. Hence a penalty to the attack test.

However, the Chameleon suit will make it harder to see where all the target's body parts are, especially if the suit isn't tight fitting. Remember you can apply ruthenium coating to a long coat.

Are you aiming at the guy's body, or is that blurry bit actually just part of the coat?

Would definitely affect how well you can hit and damage the target.



-k

Considering that ruthenium is always explained as some sort of predator-like effect, it diffuses light just as smoke does.

And if I recall correctly, you can only apply ruthenium coating to full-body suits and milspec armor.

Chameleon Ghillie Suit?

Overkill much?

In my table I ruled it to give a -2 penalty if the target actively dodge. The reasoning is that by experiencing with similar effects in video games, it is shown that once you id your target - you cant miss it anymore. However if the target jump and roll around, its slightly harder to target it, therefor the -2.

And just to muddy the waters: how does this interact with Flashpak?

I *tend* - tend, mind you, not *always* - to give people a -1 to -2 shooting at chameleon suited targets, same as I would if they were standing behind some underbrush or the like, simply because it breaks up their silhouette and makes it harder to get a good shot. Basically the equivalent of "almost no but some cover" to partial cover, depending on their surroundings and what they're doing. Crouched outside, I'll err on the side of harder to see. In an office building? Less likely, due to flat planes and even colors, as well as decent lighting.

Compared to a mage who is completely invisible or that you simply "can't see" because there's a spirit Concealing him? Plenty balanced

Yeah I quite like the idea of tech being able to make a guy mostly invisible, kinda similar to the predator or cloaking augmentation from the latest Deus Ex game (which I just finished... great fun!). Spells/spirits are fine since they have drain. The suit is an automatic thing though. I will probably suggest to my group that we bump it up to availability 13 to compensate.

...So how would his help balance things?

Only in the sense that no one will have the suit on the first run unless he takes the Restricted Gear Quality.

For balance, I would rather remove the attack penalty form the Camouflage spell than give such an ability to a souped up camo dress.

I guess hmm well say make it availability 18, forbidden, like it is high military tech. At least then it is quite hard to get (we don't allow restricted gear in our game), and if you get caught with it, the consequences are more dire...?

Ah I dunno I'm just throwing ideas around. Maybe it would be too good. But I think it would probably be ok, esp if I treat it like heavy fog, able to reduce the penalty to -2 with thermo etc.

I'd say offer this as an advanced form of ruthenium, in addition to the normal one. That way, your players can still have access to mundane camoflage at chargen, and will have something to look forward to once they acquire the cash/contacts.

So why do you think you need to houserule an item better than it is supposed to be and then make it less available? Why not just leave it RAW?

Also conceptionally I think an attack penalty is a poor way of simulating being harder to hit. Shooting at a concealed target won't make you glitch more often. A defense bonus would be a lot better.

Wanna get the most out of it?
When seen, duck out of line of sight.
Come up again. Enemy has to spot you again for a -4.

Doesn't the chameleon suit/ruthenium modification stop working as soon as it's damaged? Chameleon coating or ruthenium shouldn't work so well if the surface paint coating is scratched up & damaged.

Further reason to use buckshot-loaded fully automatic shotguns.

There is nothing like that mentioned in the rules.

There's no rule that says it stops working... but if your character just took a shotgun or explosive blast for 5P & rips through your armor/clothing... the chameleon effect of blending in isn't going to work as well when blood is gushing down your side.

hmm good point, yeah that rather balances it out well. Good until the first successful physical damage maybe. then the blood and torn suit allows enemies to know where you are, and not suffer the penalty.

I know, but there's this balance between realism and book keeping. If your group is all for it, well, have fun but I do think it is too much trouble.

First action : use a paint-splash grenade, it works for ruthenium and invisibility spell.
The first appear, the second is where the paint disappear
Second action : use a napalm-splash grenade.

Problem solved \0/

I personnaly considered that Ruthenium isn't working under rain, when you're splashed with ink/paint/blood/motor oil...
If the shooter don't see you he have a -6 to shoot at you, if he succeded to see you with a -4 penalty, he deserve to shoot you with no more penalty. I don't have problem to fire at a translucent window, it's not more difficult than a black or a mirror window.

Edit: The question is, do i see the target? Yes, so i shoot him. The target is a Blurry humanoid shape? I shoot in the center of is blurry humanoid head, let's see if he likes it.
Whatever the target is, if i see it, i can shoot at it. That's my point of view.

In the other way, Ruthenium his a double advantage, you can't see me without being extremely perceptive, and if you are, you can't shoot at me without beeing a sharpshooter.

Eh. Being unable to make out anything but a blurry shape has to affect your ability to effectively target.

As I said, is the bit you're aiming at actually the guy, or is it just the flap of his coat?

Possibly a penalty to damage instead? You hit the area just fine, but the blur effect makes it harder to get a good body impact off? Also, I can see disallowing most Called Shots on a cloaked target.



-k

That is what the Perception test at -4 determines. Once you identify the target shooting it is not harder than any other target.

I'd really like to know how the ruthenium clothing works with two or more observers in different places.

I imagine a metahuman made of pure water/glass.
He is transluscent, you see what is behind him, from were you stand. Another observer with another angle will see through him too.

Not according to the description of the item. It is a screen, cameras and a computer. The screen cannot show two different images at the same time, which would be necessary for two observers with different perspectives.

Give the limitation of the whole system, I still say -4 to Perception tests is enough.

It is advanced adaptive camo. It's definitely not perfect, but everyone sees something very close to what's behind (from their POV) the target, in terms of color, rough shape, etc. IIRC. If you're standing right next to them, it just looks like they're wearing a very good, very 'appropriate' normal camo suit… until they move.

They have at least prototypes of 'multiple view' screens today (=holographic?), so I'm happy to grant tiny, better versions of this for the future.

What can get confusing is if you have multiple folks with cloaking in a fight.

Unless they have other identifiers, it'll be kinda hard to tell who you're shooting at.

I've always envisioned the cloaking effect to be like the Predator or the thermoptic camouflage from Ghost in the Shell. In both cases, it's hard to tell what is the person's body, what is his equipment, and what is the gaps between limbs. At the very minimum, it should be nearly impossible to get a Called Shot off.

I mentioned his coat, because if his coat has the ruthenium polymer treatment, it will look like any other part of the target. You're not seeing a clearly defined figure, you're seeing a blurry shape. Actually, that's a good reason for any runner to get a cloaked long coat - breaking up your body shape is always good for an infiltrator, and can possibly make a difference between getting shot in the face or just grazed.



-k

I'll show this thread to my GM & game group... get a consensus on people's thoughts & see how we rule it. It'll add/take away from some of our game advantages & make the game even more lethal for us... but hopefully we'll figure out some better things with this. Maybe get that -4 to hit on our side when we're sneaking.

How does the suit work with a firearm or sword? those items are not covered by it, I assume? So is it best for a melee fist guy? which would be cool, since I get the impression melee tends to be < firearms in SR4A. Maybe reduce the penalty if you have a gun or sword sticking out, lesser reduction for a smaller gun or knife?

cameleon coating is an option for weapons in arsenal

And if you *don't* have that option, the effect instantly drops to like -2, IIRC. Same goes for any object you're carrying, really.

Correct.

Pistols and pistol sized grenade launchers are fine though,

Keep in mind that intentionally using the Blind Fire modifier can arguably be a boon for certain characters due to the alteration of the attribute used in the test. A character with a low Agility but a high Intuition (say Agility 2 and Intuition 5) actually lowers the effective penalty from -6 to -3, whereas a character in the opposition position takes a bigger hit with a -9 penalty.

EDIT: Since I don't think I was being completely clear, this is because the Blind Fire rules require you to use Skill + Intuition instead of Skill + Agility in the test, which then has a -6 penalty applied to it.

I didn't really see anyone mention it, but that is the perk of using a Chameleon Suit. If your opponents fail their Perception Test, they suffer the Blind Fire penalty. But if they succeed, they know where you are and have little trouble blowing you to bits.

As an aside, I actually prefer using Form-Fitting Full-Body Armor with Ruthenium Polymer treating over a Chameleon Suit. It offers exactly the same benefits, but has the added perk of being able to be worn with other clothing or armor for a lesser encumbrance penalty. You can always be wearing it, then simply slip out of your other clothes, slide on the hood and gloves, and go full on stealth mode as needed. If you have the cash to waste, you can even apply the polymers to your normal outfit for the same net effect.

No you can't. The FFBA Full Suit lacks a face mask. A "disembodied" face should reduce the effectiveness of the camouflage in the same way as a larger weapon does. There is however a face mask in one of the other source books, WAR I think. This could also be ruthenium coated for the full effect.

I'm not sure that a penalty to perception automatically translates into a penalty to hit once the perception check is passed.

Consider this cat:

http://www.thatcutesite.com/uploads/2011/0...cat-600x434.jpg

Until you know where it is, its hard to see (penalty to perception) and thus impossible to shoot.

Once you know it is there, however, its an easy target (no penalty to shooting).

Those who do research on the effects of camouflage would disagree with you.

Except the penalty for shooting a cute kitten.