Do drones and spirits have hardened armor by default?
Are all drones considered "vehicles"?

Vehicle Armor
Vehicle armor functions just like character armor, and is used for the vehicle’s damage resistance tests. Vehicle armor is the same rating
against both ballistic and impact attacks. Since vehicle armor is often much higher than ordinary character armor, gamemasters should remember to use the trade-in rule for large dice pools (4 dice for 1 hit, see Buying Hits, p. 62). If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified
Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.

Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Immunity
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added to the damage resistance test as normal armor.

Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

Vehicle armor is NOT hardened and should not be confused as such.

The reason it is mechanically identical is that vehicles lack a stun track. You can throw gel rounds at a vehicle all day long, beat it's armor 90% of the time, and still do jack diddly squat.

However, there is a slight problem with that. It may be functionally identical because vehicles lack a stun track, but it is entirely identicle, without the actually ability, if even a low force Spirit possesses the vehicle.

That's a different question entirely.

I know you've said this before, and I've said it before, but since you said it again I'll say it again.

Vehicles being immune to weapon DVs lower than their armor, and them being immune to stun, are two separate rules. Assuming that one is what causes the other is a reasonable extrapolation, but it is not actually stated.




-k

"The yakuza are still after us! Why are we stopped?!?"
"The car fell unconscious after that last hit"

Sorry - that really has nothing to do with what you just said... that just popped into my head with the thought of vehicles and stun damage

I don't think any of the above posts really address my concern, would you guys mind taking another pass?

1. The vehicle armor section in the core says, "If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails." That's the same mechanics as "hardened armor". Are drones all considered vehicles?
Does a Steel Lynx get the same armor benefit as a say...a step van or a patrol car?

2. The spirit combat section of the core (p.186) says, "Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal
to twice their Force against all attacks." So they do have both twice their magic rating in armor and hardened armor?
Does a force 10 spirit have 20 hardened armor? I thought double their magic rating in armor was bad enough.
It's not that hard to summon a force 10 spirit. I really don't know how you'd even begin to damage it.
Doesn't that completely break spirit combat?

Yes, drones are vehicles. Yes, attacks fail against vehicle armor if they don't beat armor; this resembles, but is not, Hardened Armor.

It should be hard to summon Force 10; if it's not, fix the rules. ITNW is Armor 2*Magic "treated as hardened" and adds to Damage Resistance.

Thanks Yerameyahu.
I think the first few times I read the drone and spirit rules, I just went off the rules on the main page, not the sneaky "oh, and this hugely important rule we barely mention" page referral.

I don't think it's all that hard to summon a big spirit.
It's just overcasting. You roll a bunch of dice, the spirit roles 10 dice max...the drain is just whatever the spirit gets...sometimes nothing in physical damage. I suppose it could technically kill you.

Most people also give it Edge.

I know we do... Gods do not serve Sheep...

Agreed. Fortunitely, I have avoided this, so far, since none of my Magician players have any skill in the conjuration group.

A Force 10 spirit has 20 armor, total, which is considered hardened. So, if the DV of the weapon (modified appropriately by things like net hits but not by things like burst mods) doesn't exceed 20 - AP, then it doesn't do any damage at all. If the spirit happens to be wearing armor, then that worn armor - AP is added into the damage resistance along with the 20 of the spirit itself, but is not considered in the ItNW calculation.

Note: Some people do not apply the AP to both the ItNW and to worn armor when calculating damage resistance.

And the spirit shouldn't be wearing armor anyway, ugh.

spirit armor and physical armor is like wearing multiple armor : it doesn't stack.
A Force 10 spirit possessing a metahumain wearing a 18/14 armor will push is armor to 20/20 hardoned, and that's all for me.

That doesn't make sense, but I'm fine with it. Screw spirits, especially if they wear things.

ItNW is not material in any way shape or form. It is an intrinsic resistance of the critter to damage of a specific type, is merely "treated as 'hardened' protection" as described under Hardened Armor on page 295 SR4A (which expands on Armor, page 293), and as such does not fall under the rules governing stacking of external, worn armor. Neither does armor in cyberlimbs, dermal plating (natural or otherwise) or the aura of an Armor spell.

So that Force 10 spirit possessing a metahuman with 18/14 armor would have hardened protection of 20/20 which, if overcome, would allow the possessed being to use 38/34 points of armor to resist damage. This could be part of the reason why the game has so many restrictions on magic (many of which are ignored or misunderstood, leading to the belief that magic in SR is overpowered and must be attacked from all directions till it curls up in a little ball and whimpers).

Like I said. I'm fine with the error because screw spirits, esp. possession.

And it'd be stun, unless the DV was greater than 38.

Which is irrelvant, as a spirit is still disrupted if its Track is filled, regardless of whether it is a Stun track or Physical track.

So how does armor piercing work with spirits?

Same way it does with anything else. Take the Spirit's ITNW, apply the AP, if your DV is greater than their remaining modified ITNW, then they soak to reduce damage. If their damage track becomes full, they disrupt. Pretty simple really.

Example:
Force 6 Spirit (ITNW of 12)
Sniper Rifle with DV 7, AP -3 using APDS (AP now -7).
One Net hit on Spirit.
Apply AP to ITNW (12-7=5).
Check if DV is > Remaining ITNW (8>5).
Spirit Soaks Damage with Body + 5 (Remaining ITNW); DV is 8
Spirit takes damage (or not, depending upon Soak).

Gods would not be F10. You can still realistically summon a F10 spirit that uses Edge by using Edge yourself (on Summoning and Drain Tests). F16+ would be more in line with gods, but they'd be more like Asgardian deities as opposed to (some) Hindu or other pantheons.

Personal Opinions...
Force 10 is God-like enough so as to not really matter, even if they are not as powerful a god as Force 16+ would be....

It depends on how watered-down your definition of god is. And I guess how strong your tables normally run...

True...

Two easy examples: I know how to deal with the 387 armor 400 BP character (a few different ways) and I know how to mitigate the Magic 14 Supermage at chargen.

Those freaking Stealth + Longarm snipers give me more problems...

Heh... The first is easy; Just say No. The Second is also easy; Just say No.

Snipers are ALWAYS a problem.

*shrug* Force 10 spirits are powerful, but easily dealt with without the necessity of making them cheese the player character. You can handle a lot of it through roleplay as well: a high force spirit is more likely to be creative in interpreting orders, forcing the summoner to burn through services more quickly. And, unless you roll like I do (lot's of critical failures on summoning resistance rolls) those high force spirits won't have many services to begin with.

All very true. However, No one at our table has ever been able to actually summon a Force 10 Spirit. I am okay with that. We have seen Force 5 Spirits dealing 20 Damage on the Summoner (with no Services gained). The Force 7 was about as brutal, with 18 Damage (and 1 Service Gained). Hell, for a long time, the character I use to play (Necromancer) could not summon a Water Spirit (Viscera Spirit) above Force 3, because every time I did, it beat the crap out of me and I gained no services. Ironically, that was the only spirit type I ever had that issue with (I routinely summoned Force 5 and 6 Spirits of the other types). Not sure why. No one has ever attempted to summon that Force 10 Spirit. Works for us.

You also play a different game than the rest of us. 100+ karma and characters as weak as you describe? It's ok if you guys like it, but don't think that because you don't optimize, it's not powerful.

Ugh, how can you have a spirit of viscera.

Lets see if I can remember the Classifications...

Combat: Death Spirits – The Reapers of the Damned (Guardian)
Detection: Ghosts - Ancestor Spirits (Guidance)
Health: LifeBlood - Viscera Spirits (Water)
Illusion: Ghosts - Poltergeist Spirits (Air)
Manipulation: Specter - Malevolent Spirits (Man)

Yes, it was a very disturbing imagry. And no, the Viscera Spirits are not the Blood Spirits of a Toxic.

The characters are not weak, though. I would really like for you to please tell me how they are Weak compared to the world actually depicted in the books... I bet that you can't.

You just see them that way because you prefer an over the top powerful game. Please at least acknowledge that your version is so far above the guidelines of the books that we are likely not talking about the same game in the end.

I have to agree somewhat.

The game indicates that pretty much anything above rating 5 is damn rare in the SR universe, relegated to only the elite.

The rules mechanics don't actually reflect this, though - a standard 400 BP character is supposed to be the starting point, a runner just making his way out into the mean world of the Shadows. But it's fairly easy to build a character with 400 BP that matches or exceeds the capabilities of some of the most powerful NPCs depicted in the setting.



-k

It is indeed easy to do so. There is no real reason why you should though.
Just saying....

Survival isn't a reason? What strange world do I exist in then?

Wait, what?
How is not-being "all you can be" a good thing?

Survival is not properly the primary focus of a tabletop RPG character. It depends on how that fits the game, group, story, etc.

No, but usefulness is. If you have a character that's only half as useful as another character, what was the point?

If the rest of the team, and the GM, are operating with dials set to 5, bringing in a character with dials set to 10 might be a bit disruptive to the campaign.

It's all about fitting into the particular campaign you're playing.

For example, you can build a Missions character with dice pools in the 24+ range if you want to. But most folks seem to have pools in the 12 to 16 range for primary tasks, and there seems to be a gentleman's agreement at most tables not to push the cheese TOO far.



-k

I didn't say anything about that, Draco18s. But the same point indeed applies: it depends on fit. 'Doing everything better' is not properly the *primary* focus of a tabletop RPG character.

Define Half as Useful.
Whether you have 24+ Dice to Shoot someone or 14 Dice to shoot someone. They are just as dead. You cannot be MORE dead.

And Yerameyahu and KarmaInferno have said it better than I can, as usual, so *shrug*

Ah, but the 24 dice person can fire More Bullets at More Stuff and with Bigger Guns.

Also, the principle applies to all tasks, not just bullets.

Good, you built a summoner that can summon F3 spirits without a problem, but F4 starts getting risky.

I can summon F6 all day every day. How are you useful?

Not everyone plays with the throttle wide open, dude.

And nobody said anything about playing characters that are less powerful than the other characters in the particular campaign they are in.

There are, however, campaigns that are higher or lower powered than others. If you want the group to have fun, it is best to match your characters to the average power level of the others. Otherwise you either will be a drag on the rest of the group or dominate the group, neither of which is very fun for the other guys.



-k

Man I can't say this enough. I can't tell you how many times I've described a game and had someone show up at the table with a character that specifically built to be a pain in the ass. Whether setting incompatible, or crunch incompatible it's annoying and rude.

It's the Wil Wheaton rule: Don't be a Dick!

I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why.

If the scale is "1-6" why isn't everyone at 6?

Just because the rules allow for a 1-20 as a possible range doesn't mean anything, what I'm saying is, regardless of what the range for a given campaign is why do people play things that aren't at the top end of that range? What's the benefit?

Does that happen? And if so, what part of that is simply a function of specialization-vs.-generalization?

I'd guess that any residual variation is based on playing a role that doesn't call for that (crazy thought).

There are many reasons why players might not dial it up to 6. A few come to mind.

1. First time players..Not really sure what they are doing.
2. A player might not want to be a specialist, but more of a generalist between two roles.
3. The GM has made some house rules (e.g. dice pools cannot be more than twice of the linked, augmented attribute).
4. A casual game hosted once a month with players going in and out.
5. A role-play emphasized game with combat/active skill use De-emphasized.



My answer to "Where's the Benefit" is because I've realized I will never "win" at Shadowrun so I may as well get the most fun out of playing my character as I wish. And sometimes that involves using a whiffle bat as a primary weapon.

Unintentional sub-optimality is not intentional choice.



Generalists have this habit of taking two roles and trying to be "ok" at them when both of those roles are filled by specialists in the party already. I've never seen a generalist in SR that worked well. I.e. they end up being half of two different characters and never get to shine.

Except one, and it was mine, and only because I'd been trying for a specific concept and lucked out that there was no dedicated hacker (and I still had to Mr. Lucky those roles when it came up). So my secondary role ended up being useful (my primary role was still specialized as far as I could with my limited BP budget). Even so, I ended up with several skills or abilities that never once entered play and thus ended up being more of a liability than an asset (whereas if I'd specialized more, I'd have performed better).



So, in other words, dialed up as high as it can go, and thus not a counterexample. (You altered what enforces the intended range, but not countered the point of playing below the range cap).



This is more a factor of "I need a character in 10 minutes" rather than any intentional decision on part of the player.



As if low dice pool = role playing. Haven't we been over this?