Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Awakened Wheelman
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
PresentPresence
Here's what I want:
  • Ability to get from Point A to Point B regardless of obstacles.
  • Enough spellcasting ability to overcome object resistance for Analyze Device.
  • At least a Three-Trick Pony.
  • Dice pools of around 12 for important tests.
  • Combat ability.
  • Downtime functionality.
  • Command is for script-kiddies.
Specifically, I'm looking at two things: Mind over Matter (Intuition->Reaction) and The Artisan's Way. The thing I'm confused about is what attributes/skills a jumped-in rigger needs. Is Reaction only useful to a manual operator?
How can I make better use of drones than my teammates other than simply investing more nuyen into them?
Could this role get away with 5 (4) Magic and a point of 'ware?
What spells are useful to a wizrigger?
Am I the only one who thinks that the vehicle rules are confusing and weird?
Udoshi
I recall a good discussion about this a year or so ago(gosh, has it really been that long?). It may have tons of useful info for you, if you're new to rigging. You may find it here

No, you're not wrong in that vehicles are confusing. Reaction IS only useful as manual operator - but being a wheelman is plenty good. Adepts also have access to Multitasking, which can make Captain's Chair style rigging really great. Its a wonderful combination with the More Than Metahuman quality.

Adept + a point of ware is a really strong combination.

I would suggest you THOROUGHLY familiarize yourself with the vehicle rules. In particular, focus on the three main control types and what you roll to do things in each.
Autonomous Pilot Operation
Command with Control Device
Jumped In Rigging
and Manual.

Once you know the differences, pick which one(or two) you want to be good at. Across all drone control types one thing will be consistent: Skills. Your attribute portion of tests may change depening on whether you use command or jump-in or not, but your skill values are almost always the same. As an adept, you have access to the incredibly affordable Improved Technical Skill: Technical and Vehicle. Bear in mind that with a skillgroup at 4, you can use adept powers to boost the skills that you want in that group to 6.

Additionally: Sensor targeting(core book), Evasive Driving(core book), Indirect Fire and Information Guided Targeting(arsenal). Please also note that the Common Rolls For Riggers table is NOT always right, and assumes you use rules you don't have to.(case in point: jumped in riggers CAN shoot with Response as Passive Sensor Targeting is optional, not mandatory)

I'm confused about something. Why do you want Mind over Matter?
Bodak
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 21 2011, 09:30 AM) *
Specifically, I'm looking at two things: Mind over Matter (Intuition->Reaction) and The Artisan's Way.
Is this as a spin-off of this thread a couple of months back? That was all about "a way of the artisan adept driver".
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 20 2011, 07:53 PM) *
I recall a good discussion about this a year or so ago(gosh, has it really been that long?). It may have tons of useful info for you, if you're new to rigging. You may find it here

Yes, that was an interesting build. I particularly enjoyed visualizing a LEBD-1 doing Krav. But I don't think I want to be a jumped-in rigger. I want this character to be a manual driver. Yes, fluff-wise, VR is realer than real, but I want this adept to feel the wheel, not be the tires.
Also Digital Grimoire can be fucking stupid sometimes. Heightened Concentration and Manascape, for example. "Hey, what if we made metamagical techniques available for cheap at chargen?" "Sounds good."
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 20 2011, 07:53 PM) *
I'm confused about something. Why do you want Mind over Matter?

As a manual driver, I will be using Reaction to drive. As a Mystic Adept, I may use Intuition to resist Drain. To effectively use Analyze Device, I will need to cast at a high force. Mind Over Matter allows me to use my Intuition stat on my Reaction tests.
QUOTE (Bodak @ Oct 20 2011, 08:26 PM) *
Is this as a spin-off of this thread a couple of months back? That was all about "a way of the artisan adept driver".

I read that thread, but this is not really a spin-off. That thread seemed to be mostly defined by post like "hey look at my suboptimal dice pool" followed by "nuh uh mines bigger".
Udoshi
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 01:24 AM) *
As a manual driver, I will be using Reaction to drive. As a Mystic Adept, I may use Intuition to resist Drain. To effectively use Analyze Device, I will need to cast at a high force. Mind Over Matter allows me to use my Intuition stat on my Reaction tests.


Hmn. I had fantastic lucky playing an AR-hacking cybersam Wheelman - didn't even rig at ALL. Sadly, the game was short lived.
I ended up using a combination of Move-By-Wire 2, Reaction Boosters(1 i think) Reakt, and Martial Arts with Watchful Guard. I was intending to be a combat hacker who couldn't just hold his own while being in combat, but do it while being at the front of the party. Midway through the build I realized that having such a fantastic Reaction make me an -excellent- driver, and all I had to do was take Pilot and Gunnery.
My experiences were remarkably fun. I put out 11 dice on -passive- defense on foot or in a car, and man, the party's van DANCED. I found i didn't need a really high Intuition, either - my reaction was high enough to compensate.

What i always meant to do, though, was try it out as an Adept build. All the core things that made it good are available to adepts : Reaction(improved reflexes, attribute boost), Reakt(combat sense 2) for fairly cheap. The addition of Improved Technical Skill would make it better. The best thing you can do for a multitasking build like this is cut down on the multi-attribute-dependency as much as possible. If you want to be an awakened wheelman, you probably want to go Logic tradition for the boost on all your Technical skills, and the fact that Cerebral Boosters are very affordable.


On a side note, If you're a mystic adept, you should ask your GM about using making a tradition that rolls Body+Willpower to resist train - its what Adepts do normally, so it'd be for more of an adept-y mysad.
PresentPresence
So here's some preliminary build outlines for a 'Mind Over Matter Mystic Adept of the Artisan's Way':

Intuition (and therefore Reaction):
SURGE II to max 7 (10 BP)
Genetweak to max 8 (0.2 Essence; Y45,000)
Softcap at 7 (50 BP)
Mysterious Implant II for Inspiration infusion (0.4 Essence; -10 BP)
Speedball Psyche and Betameth

Willpower:
Dwarf (25 BP)
Softcap at 6 (40)
Daredrenaline adds 1 to all tests (0.1 Essence; Y25,000)
Any martial art and Focus Will maneuver to add 2 to all tests after taking a complex action to focus, which is moot outside of combat (7 BP)
Speedball Hurlg and Nitro, Deepweed when applicable
-1 from Inspiration

Magic:
Mystic Adept (10 BP)
Witchcraft Tradition
The Artisan's Way (10 BP)
Harcap at 6, modified maximum of 5 (65 BP)
Devote 2 points to Powers:
  • Mind Over Matter, Geas: 1.125 PP
  • Improved Ability (Pilot Ground Craft) 3, Favored and Geas; Analytics 4, Favored and Geas: 0.875 PP
  • Total: 2 (I apologize for the munchkinry, Critias)
Analyze Device and Increase Reflexes + 7 other spells* (24 BP)
Power Focus R2 (Y50,000; Binding 2 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Health) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)
Sustaining Focus (Detection) (Y30,000; Binding 3 BP)

Skills:
Pilot Ground Craft 6 (Modified to 9 with Power) (24 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)
Spellcasting 4 (16 BP)
Summoning 3 (8 BP)
Binding 3 (8 BP)
Enchanting 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Vessel Preparation (2 BP)
Automotive Mechanic 3 (8 BP)
Specialize in Wheeled (2 BP)

Y250,000 worth of resources (50BP)

Gross: 359 BP

Dice Pools:
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)
Pilot Groundcraft: Reaction->Intuition 10 + Skill 6 + Improved Ability 3 + Specialization 2 + AR 1= 22 +/- Handling
Resist Drain: Intuition 10 + Willpower 9 + Daredrenaline 1 + Focus Will 2 = 22

Notes:
I can also prepare my vehicle as a vessel for possession.
Item Attunement won't be better than AR for 3 initiate grades. By then I can have a decent Ally Spirit who can inhabit my ride with a Hybrid Form. I can also teach it Pilot Ground Craft so it can drive itself, and other cool stuff that Ally Spirits can do.



tl;dr >20 dice pools for driving and resisting drain
So, any other optimizations/ideas you guys can think of?
Makki
getr yourself a Ford Focus!
PresentPresence
I saw what you did there. wink.gif
UmaroVI
You should keep in mind that Mind over Matter only helps you with tests - it doesn't improve your initiative score. I'm not really confidant that Intuition->Reaction is worth it because Initiative is so important, but if anyone can use it effectively I think it would be a driver.

Analyze Device is just not going to work for you. You get a bonus based on NET hits, and you're going up against OR 5. Your dice pool is, assuming you pick up a mentor and a specialization for detection, 4+4+2+2=12. That's not happening.

Skills at 3 are 12bp, not 8bp

Analytics 4? Are you planning to try to con your GM into letting it add to spellcasting skills or something? It's a goofy fluff power, and I don't see it as being remotely worth the price for it. Maaaaaaaybe analytics 1 if your GM is the type to let you roll for things you otherwise wouldn't get to roll for with it (which it does not do, RAW).

You don't have Gunnery, which seems an odd choice if you want combat functionality.

You can't choose your Mysterious Impact to just so happen to "mysteriously" be the one that would be super-beneficial to you. "The character has a mysterious implant in her body of which she is unaware. The gamemaster chooses the implant, and the char-acter does not become aware of its existence until the gamemaster chooses to reveal it—perhaps by having it kick in at an inconve-nient time or show up on a detector when the character tries to travel or pass unnoticed into a corporate environment."

Get a Mentor Spirit.

I would think really hard about coughing up for Restricted Gear and making that power focus force 4.



PresentPresence
Initiative Score is a test, and it uses REA + INT. I can replace REA with INT for any test. Arguable, yes, but I am working under the assumption that it works for Initiative Score.

Analyze Device is going to be difficult, but it's something that can be done outside of combat, allowing things like Aid Sorcery and Aspected Backgrounds.

Skills cost brainfart.

Analytics 4 is just what I ended up having as a result of Artisan's Way and geas. I am starting to think that the Artisan's Way is not useful for a Mind Over Matter user. Item Attunement is stupid for manual drivers. You can't use AR, which adds 1 die, and you can't beat that until you get to initiate to grade 3. That's window-licking stupid. A better use of your karma is getting yourself a sweet Ally Spirit to inhabit your wheels. It's basically a magical Pilot that can do a bunch of great stuff for you. I mean, a car that counterspells for you? A motorcycle that casts stunbolts? How cool is that? And you can still use AR while driving it. However, Artisan's Way adepts can apply Adept Centering to Vehicle Skills, which is very cool.

Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.

Yeah, that's some twinkery that crosses the line.

Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.

Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?
HunterHerne
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 03:50 PM) *
Initiative Score is a test, and it uses REA + INT. I can replace REA with INT for any test. Arguable, yes, but I am working under the assumption that it works for Initiative Score.

Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.
QUOTE
Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

Go snake. The one dice penalty isn't so bad, and you can have snake-like effects for a shamanic mask.
PresentPresence
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 03:16 PM) *
Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.

Good point, but with drugs and Increase Reflexes, we're looking at a base Initiative of Intuition (Base 7 + Betameth 1 + Psyche 1) 9 + Reaction (Base 1 + Betameth 2) 3 + Increase Reflexes 2 (If sustained in a Force 3 focus) = 14, and the Score would roll Intuition 9 x 2 for an average of 6 hits. 20 Initiative ain't bad.

QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 03:16 PM) *
Go snake. The one dice penalty isn't so bad, and you can have snake-like effects for a shamanic mask.

"Me beard is alive!"
UmaroVI
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 03:50 PM) *
Analytics 4 is just what I ended up having as a result of Artisan's Way and geas. I am starting to think that the Artisan's Way is not useful for a Mind Over Matter user. Item Attunement is stupid for manual drivers. You can't use AR, which adds 1 die, and you can't beat that until you get to initiate to grade 3. That's window-licking stupid. A better use of your karma is getting yourself a sweet Ally Spirit to inhabit your wheels. It's basically a magical Pilot that can do a bunch of great stuff for you. I mean, a car that counterspells for you? A motorcycle that casts stunbolts? How cool is that? And you can still use AR while driving it. However, Artisan's Way adepts can apply Adept Centering to Vehicle Skills, which is very cool.

Gunnery seemed like something I would leave the other characters to do from outside of my windows.

Getting a Mentor Spirit and a Power Focus require me to free up some Quality BP. Right now, I have Mystic Adept 10 + SURGE II 10 + The Artisan's Way 10 + Martial Arts I 5 = 35. If I drop The Artisan's Way I can get a Mentor Spirit and a better focus. I think it's worth it, because I have plenty of driving dice.

Which Mentor Spirit should I choose? The ones that add to Detection Spells are Dog (I don't have spirits of man), Eagle (Air Spirits are good for combat), Snake (Binding is useful for a possession mage, but I might want to cast Stunbolts), Spider (Illusion Spells are useful, but I want to be quick on my feet), Sky Father (Manipulation Spells might seem good for a techwiz, but in practice they seem pretty crappy. Fix, for example. Cars are just too heavy to do anything useful with), and Wise Warrior (A bonus to Combat spells, and -1 to everything all the time. I'm a shadowrunner; I do dishonorable things for fun and profit.)

I also need to use up some more Essence. Any suggestions?


I agree - I don't think you're getting your money's worth out of the Way, and I would much rather have a Mentor Spirit and Restricted Gear.

On second thought you are right about gunnery, as an analog driver.

As a Possession mage, IMO, Snake all the way. Task spirits are the ones you want (because Gunnery is a Technical Skill, you put the task spirit with Gunnery in your drone and let it kamurder things), and nobody gives +2 Task, so +2 Binding is the way to go. There's other neat tricks that make Binding worthwhile, such as Invoking. -1 dice to one spell you use sometimes is well, well worth it.

Looks like you have Dareadrenaline (.1), GenOp Intuition (.2)?

Some good stuff:
Attention Coprocessor: high Perception is always good, and you have a high Intuition already.
Cyberhand or cyberfoot with a nanohive and Neocortical for +3 to your automotive mechanic. Alternatively, go whole hog with an alphaware cyberarm with boosted agility, and rely on that and a weapon skill for fighting outside vehicles.
You can never go wrong with reflex recorders for skills you care about.
Genetic Optimization: Willpower would let you hit the breakpoint for an extra Stun box.




Manunancy
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 11:55 AM) *
Dice Pools:
Intuition: Base 7 + Inspiration 1 + Psyche 1 + Betameth 1 = 10
Willpower: Base 6 + Hurlg 1 + Nitro 2 = 9 (10 when using Deepweed)


If you're using all four (or five...) at the same time, you'd better to be stopped in safe place - and preferably with a medic on hand - when you crash down from all that. The landing is going to be rough....

That sort of mix sounds like a great way to get started on the Path of the Burnout....
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Oct 22 2011, 10:16 PM) *
Yes, the test will use int*2, but your score before adding hits will still be rea+int. So, if Int is 6, and rea 1, you have 12 dice to roll, with an average 4 hits, bringng you initiative that round to 11.
Actually even that does not work. You do not roll REA+INT, you roll your Initiative Attribute. Adding REA and INT to calculate your Initiative Attribute is not a test and as such REA will not be replaced by INT through Mind over Matter. So in the example above you will be rolling 7 dice and add the hits to 7.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 144')
To determine a character's Initiative Score, make an Initiative Test using his Initiative attribute. (A character's Initiative attribute is the sum of Reaction and Intuition.) Edge may be used on this test. Add the hits to your Initiative attribute—this total is your Initiative Score.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 23 2011, 06:25 AM) *
Actually even that does not work. You do not roll REA+INT, you roll your Initiative Attribute. Adding REA and INT to calculate your Initiative Attribute is not a test and as such REA will not be replaced by INT through Mind over Matter. So in the example above you will be rolling 7 dice and add the hits to 7.


Fair enough. And my mistake.
Ryu
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 22 2011, 11:10 PM) *
As a Possession mage, IMO, Snake all the way. Task spirits are the ones you want (because Gunnery is a Technical Skill, you put the task spirit with Gunnery in your drone and let it kamurder things), and nobody gives +2 Task, so +2 Binding is the way to go. There's other neat tricks that make Binding worthwhile, such as Invoking. -1 dice to one spell you use sometimes is well, well worth it.

Gunnery is a Vehicle Active skill. Remember your jumped-in cheese wink.gif
PresentPresence
I dunno, I still think the whole initiative thing is arguable, but we will probably never get an "official" answer anyways like Critias does with his unofficial errata. For such a potentially game-changing power, it has a remarkable lack of wording. It's seriously like only one paragraph.

Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.
Yerameyahu
It seems pretty clear, at least in intent. Swapping for Body doesn't increase your armor cap; swapping for Strength doesn't change your pre-test weight cap, nor even (IIRC?) your melee damage. Etc. Your Init *Score* is a precalc stat, not 'part of the test', in the way that linked attribs are.
Critias
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 02:37 PM) *
I dunno, I still think the whole initiative thing is arguable, but we will probably never get an "official" answer anyways like Critias does with his unofficial errata. For such a potentially game-changing power, it has a remarkable lack of wording. It's seriously like only one paragraph.

Task spirits are super awesome for possession traditions.

FWIW, War! was (just) before "my time." I had nothing to do with the adept powers and such in there. I integrated a few of 'em when I thought they made sense (on the favored lists in Ways, that sort of thing), but I'm in the same boat as you guys are, when it comes to knowing exactly how they work.
PresentPresence
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?
UmaroVI
QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 23 2011, 01:42 PM) *
Gunnery is a Vehicle Active skill. Remember your jumped-in cheese wink.gif

Oops, you're right. And no spirit type gets Vehicle skills. I must have been thinking about Tutor sprites.

I wonder what the best way to get spirits to help with drones is, then? If they possess a drone with mounted weapons, the weapon uses Gunnery which the spirit doesn't have, and the spirit cannot use autosofts. An Ally Spirit could have Gunnery, of course, but you only get one of those.

Maybe the way to go is drones with mechanical arms and held weapons plus Guardian spirits? Although I want to see autonomous Dodge Guardians with mounted weapons carrying zombies with machine guns.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 05:09 PM) *
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?


To make people think they are better te they really are. Also, they are pretty basic spells, except the fact they are mostly worthless.

That said, analyze device does have it's uses. Operating a vehicle or commlink just aren't them. It'll help you take maglocks apart, or run a scanner.
Manunancy
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 23 2011, 11:09 PM) *
Well, how much Iniative and how many IPs does a manual driver need? I can put a Force 3 Increase Reflexes in my focus, and if I really wanted to I could have a plant spirit sustain a Force 4. That gives me +2-3 Initative and Passes. Casting Increase Reaction would be easy too because the base is so low. Force 3 would be easy to resist drain. Also, do I need to cast Analyze Device at at least F6 to get any benefit out of it? If so, do I have to sustain it? And why did they make spells to affect technology (like Fix) knowing that they would likely have to pass such a high object resistance threshold?


Fix will work on low tech items - for things like fixing a broken toaster in the morning, patching bullet holes in your clothes or a dented blade it's working fine. But using it on something complex or high tech is definitively stretcfhing the spell to the limits of it's abilities.
Dakka Dakka
Now read the section about wireless connectivity (SR4A p. 313). So (nearly) everything is at least OR 3 for the contained electronics.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 23 2011, 02:11 PM) *
I wonder what the best way to get spirits to help with drones is, then? If they possess a drone with mounted weapons, the weapon uses Gunnery which the spirit doesn't have, and the spirit cannot use autosofts. An Ally Spirit could have Gunnery, of course, but you only get one of those.


You can have as many Ally Spirits as you are willing to pay the price for. There is no limit, other than Karma.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 23 2011, 10:16 PM) *
Now read the section about wireless connectivity (SR4A p. 313). So (nearly) everything is at least OR 3 for the contained electronics.


But you can fix things with the spells other than electronics.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2011, 03:19 PM) *
But you can fix things with the spells other than electronics.
The point is that nearly everything must contain electronics since it is wireless enabled. So you have to assume an OR of 3 or more, because you cannot affect part of a whole with magic.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 24 2011, 06:26 AM) *
The point is that nearly everything must contain electronics since it is wireless enabled. So you have to assume an OR of 3 or more, because you cannot affect part of a whole with magic.


No Assumptions are necessary at all. Not EVERYTHING (not even Nearly Everything) is wireless enabled. You will have other concerns, however, than electornics. Your biggest challenmge is that almost everything in the world is either a Manufactured High-Tech object (OR 3), or is Highly Manufactured (OR 5).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2011, 06:20 PM) *
Not EVERYTHING (not even Nearly Everything) is wireless enabled.

Actually the book says otherwise:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 313')
In 2072, almost every device is computerized and equipped with a wireless link—from guns to toasters to clothing to sensors to cyberware. As a rule, assume that any gear item that is electronic or mechanical has a wireless-enabled computer in it. Even non-electronic devices without moving parts may have a built-in computer, if it might be useful or convenient to the user (wouldn’t you like to be able to download and play your favorite songs on your jacket?). The gamemaster has final determination over what items are wireless-enabled.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2011, 06:20 PM) *
You will have other concerns, however, than electornics. Your biggest challenmge is that almost everything in the world is either a Manufactured High-Tech object (OR 3), or is Highly Manufactured (OR 5).
That's for those three things that are not wireless enabled. It's not that bad though. Once you exceed the threshold (which is strangely necessary for spells) you will fix at least 4 or 6 boxes of damage, since all hits not net hits are counted.
Yerameyahu
Oh snap! RAW-slam. biggrin.gif

My take is that magic is simply *supposed* to be hard with significant-OR targets. I once saw someone say that 'spells specifically designed for high-OR objects should ignore it', or something like that; that's just crazy talk.
Dakka Dakka
It is crazy talk, but the RAW make the whole Ram/Wreck/Demolish line of spells not very useful. -1 drain for very limited application is not that great.
Makki
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 24 2011, 03:26 PM) *
The point is that nearly everything must contain electronics since it is wireless enabled. So you have to assume an OR of 3 or more, because you cannot affect part of a whole with magic.


if you are only slightly tech-savy, you can disassemble the device and fix only the broken part. this could be a simple piece like a broken axle or burned fuse. Then you re-assemble your vehicle. It's the slow way. But also the fun way.
Dakka Dakka
At that point a roll of duct tape is about as useful as the magician.
PresentPresence
I've had some difficulty making a successful build for this character. Optimizing my drain attributes and getting that wicked power focus costs me a lot of money. Part of being a driver is owning a tricked-out ride which itself costs a lot of money. I am running up against a brick wall on how to buy everything I need. Then I had the grand idea to not give this character a vehicle. "Say whaaaa?" Someone who boosts cars and provides transportation for runners and then sends them to his chop shop contact for an additional payout. Quick, anonymous, cheap. Now, what skills does a car thief need?
According to Arsenal, you need to broadcast:
  • Access ID
  • License plate
  • Registration, Insurance, SIN, and License
Access IDs are covered by integrating a spoof chip (Y500) and the plates are covered by a morphing license plate (Y1,000). Integrating a spoof chip is a Hardware+Logic (2) test, easy to accomplish. Assuming both of these can be removed and re-applied to various vehicles allows for a cheap investment to keep yourself anonymous. However, we run into an issue with the papers. How can these be represented by fake SINs and licenses? Would I have to edit them to say that I own this kind of vehicle? How could I edit that? Would I have to have a forger contact that would edit my SIN every time I stole a car? That's crazy! But I have an idea. Since I am a witch, I can use me magicks to cast Vehicle Mask to make the vehicle look like a car that my fake license "genuinely" owns and operates. Ka-Blam! Yeah, I'll light up on the astral, but I'll trick the GridGuide sensors.
As for actually gaining access to the vehicle, I would have to beat these systems:
  • Maglocks or
  • Keypads or
  • Biometrics or
  • Transponder keys or
  • A combination thereof and
  • An encrypted node
Most of these are Hardware+Logic tests and involve using various kits or gadgets to evade. What kind of gear and what level of ability would a hacker need to decrypt a rating three node with a rating three encryption without alerting the owner? How can I integrate Task spirits into these operations?
Yerameyahu
Dakka Dakka, I think they're meant to be not very useful. Bad design. smile.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 25 2011, 11:30 AM) *
Access IDs are covered by integrating a spoof chip (Y500) and the plates are covered by a morphing license plate (Y1,000). Integrating a spoof chip is a Hardware+Logic (2) test, easy to accomplish. Assuming both of these can be removed and re-applied to various vehicles allows for a cheap investment to keep yourself anonymous. However, we run into an issue with the papers. How can these be represented by fake SINs and licenses?

You're putting way too much thought into it. Shadowrun is an abstract game system. "Fake SIN" and "Fake License" covers everything you need that SIN or license for, and it's assumed that you keep it up to date through whatever legitimate or illegitimate means necessary. You don't have to worry about the fine details unless your GM decides to have some fun and do a side adventure based on your day-to-day lives or some such. Otherwise, that's simply not what the game is about.
PresentPresence
Here's what I've got so far:
[ Spoiler ]
Total: 421 BP

And I haven't even raised my phsyical attributes, bought contacts, or purchased a good commlink yet! Here's my new list of priorities:
  • Drive better than my team.
  • Steal cars nonchalantly.
  • Summon possession spirits for shenanigans.
  • Reliably casts spells that can defeat OR 5.


Thoughts? Suggestions? QQ?
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Arsenal pg. 104 "Vehicle Anonymity")
Luckily, the shadow rigger and hacking communities have devised a number of tricks and tools for just those reasons. Most riggers spoof their vehicle’s access ID on a regular basis and keep a number of fake licenses —including registration and insurance papers—on hand. To make it even easier, most also take advantage of spoof chips, morphing license plates, and chameleon coating to alter their vehicle’s looks as necessary.
Would a fake driver's license cover registration and insurance information? I know IRL requires separate documentation, but with the advent of SINs, they may just lump them together electronically. It's not a huge cost for me to get some more fake licenses, but it would make things simpler.
Yerameyahu
I mean, that's a kind of crazy list of priorities. It can be done, sure. It's just very hybrid.
Modular Man
You may switch "Vehicle Mask" for "Physical Mask". Does the same thing and a lot more. A little more drain, but so much more versatility.
The "PuSHeD" geneware and "neocortical" nanites (employing a nanohive, of course) grant you +1 and +3 to logic-related skills, the latter only if you can concentrate enough.
You could also rent out cars from time to time. The papers are matching then, you could - with a little time - add in a few improvements and remove them afterwards. Make sure you sign the best car insurance that's on the bill just in case you have to wreck that ride. You can, of course, only do that so much on every fake SIN. If your runner lives in a city with state borders nearby, use that to your advance - car rentals, if not part of a chain, are unlikely to check in other nations, even if they are nearby.
You could get a few fake licenses/papers of cheap, common cars in common colors ready at hand. Spoof the car's node ID and you're golden. In times of real ned, you can even re-paint the car.
Make sure to clean the car up afterwards (read: C² in massive doses).
Personally, I'd use drones for a lot of this stuff, but your character seems more like a mano-a-mano kind of guy. A cleaning rag might even not have such a high object resistance smile.gif

As for use of "Analyze Device": Technically advanced stuff is, if the character in question isn't tricked out for that, right off. But there may be other things... for example, carry an obsidian dagger with you all the time. A possession spirit will go in there more likely, and you can boost your pool easily. Almost no one will suspect that flint stone with the sharp edge in your pocket for your murder tool. The spell might not be as useful as on first sight, but it's still worth something...
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 25 2011, 12:20 PM) *
Would a fake driver's license cover registration and insurance information? I know IRL requires separate documentation, but with the advent of SINs, they may just lump them together electronically. It's not a huge cost for me to get some more fake licenses, but it would make things simpler.

Fake License: Carry and Conceal Weapons (Rating 4)
Fake License: Fishing (Rating 4)
Fake License: Registration and Insurance (Rating 4)

Those are three examples of what a fake license can do. The "lumping of them together" is covered by the fact that you have both a Fake License and a Fake SIN. If you only have one and not the other, then they're either not "lumped together" or they're attached to legitimate SINs or licenses that you possess. Which, incidentally, are free of charge as long as you have the SINner negative quality.

Also, if you're going with a Possession tradition, just have a spirit possess your vehicle. Then you 1) don't have to worry about piloting yourself, 2) it gains its Force to all of the relevant vehicle stats, and 3) you can do a lot more while the spirit is piloting. It basically turns you into a universal drone rigger, except you don't have to pay for your vehicles or drones and can just usurp existing ones with relative ease.
Udoshi
For reliably casting spells to beat OR, you have a few options.

Most of them make you take a look at what spell category you're going to be casting. That is either Manipulation or Divinitation, likely.
From there, you have Spellcasting Foci, Bound Spirits with Assist Spellcasting....

and specialities. Using the FAQ ruling that the core book list of specialties aren't the ONLY ones, your spellcasting skill should definitely be Spellcasting ( Object Resistance +2).

If you want to keep spells up all the time, like analyze device, you will almost certainly want some way of reducing the sustaining penalty. Foci, Psyche or spirits.

The other option is raising your Edge, and getting a decent/moderate size dice pool, and just rerolling it if you're casting an important spell.

QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Oct 25 2011, 12:24 PM) *
Also, if you're going with a Possession tradition, just have a spirit possess your vehicle. Then you 1) don't have to worry about piloting yourself, 2) it gains its Force to all of the relevant vehicle stats, and 3) you can do a lot more while the spirit is piloting. It basically turns you into a universal drone rigger, except you don't have to pay for your vehicles or drones and can just usurp existing ones with relative ease.

Car-possessing is less good than you think. It loses a pass compared to the pilot, and still needs to burn one to control itself, because its a vehicle. ITNW and the stat buff is nice, but its not necessarily less expensive either. If you want to reliably possess a high OR target, it needs to be a prepared vessel. Those tend to be pretty expensive, and they open you up to being counter-possessed while not in use by your spirit.
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 25 2011, 01:27 PM) *
Using the FAQ ruling that the core book list of specialties aren't the ONLY ones, your spellcasting skill should definitely be Spellcasting ( Object Resistance +2).

I was thinking about some kind of specialization like "Hi-Tech Targets".
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 25 2011, 01:27 PM) *
If you want to keep spells up all the time, like analyze device, you will almost certainly want some way of reducing the sustaining penalty. Foci, Psyche or spirits.

Smoke Psyche every day. I also plan on having familiars to possess (Greymalkin, Paddock, etc.) to help me sustain/cast spells.
PresentPresence
As for car-possession, I would love to purchase a car and have an Ally Spirit to inhabit it, but regular spirits can't do it so well. For starters, none of them have access to Vehicle skills, so they wouldn't be able to handle a crash test very well. I would probably just have them make my ride faster, but I can't find very concrete rules about it. "Adds Force to vehicle stats." So...a Force 5 spirit increase my acceleration by 5/5? And I top out at 5 more for Speed? That's...pretty useless. However, my Ally Spirit could have both Pilot Ground Craft and Gunnery skills, and would basically be a magical Pilot.
And on that note, could I have a Task spirit possess something with functional appendages and have it hack for me? Just to take care of those pesky low-risk 3/3 nodes and save myself the trouble? Would you rule that a spirit is more, less, or equally competent as a similarly-rated Agent? At the very least, they wouldn't have to be "unrestricted".
Ryu
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 25 2011, 08:13 PM) *
Here's what I've got so far:
[ Spoiler ]
Total: 421 BP

And I haven't even raised my phsyical attributes, bought contacts, or purchased a good commlink yet! Here's my new list of priorities:
  • Drive better than my team.
  • Steal cars nonchalantly.
  • Summon possession spirits for shenanigans.
  • Reliably casts spells that can defeat OR 5.


Thoughts? Suggestions? QQ?

- You might be overshooting your target on the Driving aspect. I´d expect some samurai at REA 7 and Pilot Ground 3 (Bikes +2), but that are only 12 dice. You are nowhere near a Jumped-In-Rigger on the other hand.
- You lack the gear for hacking
- Easy to cover.
- Some dice missing there. (Talking dp sizes, wasn´t one original goal having a dp of 12 for important skills? You are dangerously low on attributes for an unskilled char like that.)
Ol' Scratch
They can use their other powers while possessing. Like, oh I don't know, Movement. smile.gif And they shouldn't need Vehicle Skills or make many tests just for 'moving' since the moment they possess the vehicle they become a possessed vessel, not simply a vehicle. Just like how they don't have to make any kind of tests to move when possessing, say, a Plasteel Homunculus or Zombie.

Since the rules specifically state that its up to the GM to decide how such things are handled (Street Magic, pp 102-103), I'd imagine that if a test is required that normally uses a skill, Force would/should take its place. Such as Reaction + Force instead of Reaction + Vehicle Skill. The spirit isn't "piloting" the vehicle. It *is* the vehicle. Far and away moreso than even a jumped-in rigger.
PresentPresence
Driving: INT 7 + Skill 6 + Power 2 + RR 1 + Spec 2 + AR 1 = 19 +/- Handling
Stealing Cars* (Hardware): LOG 5 + Skill 4 + AR 1 = 10 + Task Spirit Teamwork
Summon: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Summoning 4 = 11
Bind: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Binding 4 + Mentor 2 = 13
Cast Detection Spell on High-OR object: MAG 3 + Focus 4 + Spellcasting 4 + Spec 2 + Mentor 2 = 15 + Air Spirit Aid Sorcery

*Yes, I do not have hacking gear yet. I am not sure what I need for my specific task (Decrypting a rating 3 node's encryption), and what I need to do to achieve my goal (Steal a car). Arsenal says that I need to decrypt the node, but then what? Do I need skills outside of Hacking? Can a Task Spirit do it reliably with a decent enough commlink?
Ryu
The whole "Mind over Matter" business is a waste. Play a proper possession based spellcaster. Get initiated as soon as possible, choose Channeling. Get two points of implants: add a Trauma Dampener and Reaction Enhancer 3. Forfeit on super-Intuition.

With Rea +Force from possession, your dp´s won´t suffer. Your physical initiative will be ludicrously high. Go for mook hacking, get the software suite ingame if you are not allowed to buy hacked software at chargen.
PresentPresence
Hey, I have an idea! Why don't I just play a pornomancer! Oh wait, that's totally not what I wanted to do. What I'm looking for is optimizations without compromising the core character concept. Mind Over Matter is the name of the game, compadre, and I'm just trying to figure out how to work with it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012