But it's not like any of this is commonly accepted. In other groups, not doing a personal and thorough background check on the J might constitute a possibly lethal oversight... you just shouldn't get caught doing it.

It also depends on the Shadowculture of the area. Not all Biz is run like it is in Seattle.

I tend to think in-person meets are better for security. Even if you encrypt your communications to the nth degree, anything on the matrix ends up in the deep resonance, right? So any Technnomancer with level 1 immersion can fish out your conversation. Plus, most Johnsons, I imagine, would want to get a look at the team they're hiring.

Nothing is really secure, though. There are about a thousand ways to compromise a meat meet. The fact is that some people use e-presence, therefore everyone can.

And technomancers are magic BS.

Yerameyahu already addressed the security issue. It's harder than you'd think IN CONJUNCTION WITH maintaining deniability.

My actual laugh, however, was about wanting to look at the team they're hiring. Why?

Seriously. First, there's the matter of witnesses and moles. The more people, the more ways things can go sideways.

Second -- so I can see the person the face says is their tech. And seeing them tells me what, exactly? Oooh, the face says the troll is the team muscle, and that's certainly stereotypical. But is it true? And as Mr. Johnson how the crap do I tell if she is or if she's a mage wearing armor and carrying a big gun she can't use for squat? After all, I sure as crap don't want her to draw and use it at the meet.

For somewhat experienced Johnsons I like sole contact meets. Meat with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight, but preferably on the matrix because that's actually easier to secure AND less likely to let you identify me. Add an agreeable escrow drop of bearer-type credsticks (you can verify they're there, I know you won't get them till I send the release), and it's workable for us both. (Yes, you and I can both still screw with that situation, but it is harder.)

I find it amusing that in your world, Johnsons show up to meets alone, and rely only on their own powers of observation. I suppose it all depends on the type of clients you're working with. For a corp Johnson, it'd be trivial to have a team during an in-person meet astrally scanned (which would turn up your mage in disguise, for example). Getting a look at the team isn't so much about figuring out who's who as it is about observing the runners and how they carry themselves in public. If you set up a meet in a nightclub and their face can't even manage to get them past the bouncers, or their Troll is picking fights in line, then clearly these aren't the "professionals" the fixer told you they were.

If anonymity is the key for the Johnson, then a Matrix meet makes sense, though once again, there is no security measure that can stop a TM from retrieving the info from the Deep Resonance. If, however, the team is unknown to the Johnson and the job requires quality work, nothing will beat direct observation.

Are you telling me that the Johnson is going to look at the team and say, "Nope, I don't want you and your team"? or rather, that it happens with any frequency in your world? Seriously, does that happen often in your world?

As for meeting alone, it's a matter of definition. In fact, reread my earlier post: "with backup (for each of us) near but out of sight". Think about it a bit. Mr. Johnson isn't the boss. Mr. Johnson is the person with the authority to negotiate and agree. If he's corp, he's got a max limit. (If he's like a lot of corps, he may get a bonus based on how much he doesn't spend.)

If he's newby independent he may not HAVE a team, it's just him negotiating for an extraction. If so, he's one guy facing... your TEAM? who might be working for the people who do NOT want him to leave?

If I'm good enough and connected enough to have a team to check out your team, I can do it before the meet. Every member of my security who's present is another person from whom you can pick up information I don't want to give. Two of us, your face and me, with our security outside a 200 or 500 meter perimeter after mutually clearing the meet site. No crowds that say "Look, a meeting". No need to get a bunch of people in and out. No need to watch a whole bunch of directions.

So yes, in my world one on one is fairly common. Especially if there are over-augmented gorillas with control issues around.

If we do have a physical meet, with an actual employer, and not a cut out-it's not uncommon for those individuals to have security arrangements, and to have done back ground checks on the team. Even if it's an independent they're like to have a cousin or a friend they can trust as nearby as they can reasonably get away with.

The Fixer my current group of player characters deal with has multiple layers of security. Some is more intrusive than the others-but it starts with a roll of quarters and goes up from there!

The whole point of Mr. Johnson is that he, too, is a deniable asset. He's an extra layer between the employers and the runners. He (should) only has basic information about the runners via the Fixer, and the runners (should) know little to nothing about who the Johnson is working for. And the Fixer doesn't want to know who the Johnson is working for; he's just an agent for the runners. The fewer details he knows about anything going on, the better. The Johnson may not even know who he's working for; he's a contracted negotiator and get-the-job-done man. And, even bettern whoever hired the Johnson has no idea who the runners are, hence the deniability bit.

That's the ideal set-up and the entire point of a Fixer and a Mr. Johnson. I'm not saying that's how most groups use them, but it is the point of those contact archetypes.

A fair question. Realistically, it *should* happen to Shadowrunners who don't know how to act in public. Now, I don't know what your groups are like, but I've been in plenty of groups where there's at least one guy who does crazy/stupid stuff. He makes the game fun, but there should be consequences for when it goes too far.


As I said, I would expect a corp Johnson to at least be able to pull together some magical/astral backup without issue. I don't think a newbie independent Johnson without the resources to vet a team before an operation is cut out for the business, to be honest. I'm not saying that online meetups never happen, or are even rare; I'm saying that depending in the circumstances, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a Johnson would call for an in-person meet.


There's a middle ground between "I can't be bothered to check you out at all" and "I will spend money to have every member of your team stalked by professionals before the meet". At least in my mind.


I could argue the point re: security teams, but I'd rather not. Your reasons are sound. I'm not talking about giant security teams on-site either; just the traditional bar/nightclub meeting.

IRL business people will travel to the other side of the world at considerable expense to their companies to meet face-to-face with clients despite the fact a video conference would cost their companies nothing - perhaps it is just a hang-up of our species, but in terms of engendering trust face-to-face is the way to go. Same goes (at least on my table) for SR, although a few Johnsons might prefer meeting virtually the majority probably prefer a meat meet. As other posters have pointed out, technomancers could breach security of matrix meets (although with all that data floating out there, they would have to know EXACTLY what to look for), so meets in private rooms in nightclubs/bars/restaurants are probably also the best way for the Johnson to ensure anonymity. And yes, unless they are a newb or a one-off Johnson they WILL bring security.

As for this one-to-one with both sides security sweeping and securing a 200m or 500m perimeter and then hanging back, not exactly subtle is it? To the casual observer such precautions would scream of "oh, a secret meet, might be interesting to eavesdrop" should they have the skills and inclination.

Your table, of course, but are you honestly comparing current video conference tech to SR's matrix immersion and calling them "the same"?

Yes, as others have noted technomancers, and for that matter standard hackers, can breach security of matrix meets. Bluntly, given knowledge the meet is happening and the constraints of an attempt at deniability (shadows) all meets can have their security breached. Matrix meets are no more and no less secure for information. And they're a lot MORE secure for issues like leaving ritual-worthy traces and evidence, not to mention avoiding lurking assassins.

Finally, yep the full sweep is observable - depending on where the sweep is happening. Of course you have to see the sweep, recognize it's newsworthy, then figure out how to evade that security enough to get into the "private" meet.

That said, as I've stated earlier I actually prefer a different set of places for meat meets. Zoos, malls (access hallways), and amusement parks are favorites for me.

No, he isn't, he's just pointing out that in spite of logic, people still spend thousands of dollars to meet face to face when any form of long distance communication would work just as well. Why would that change just because the communication methods have gotten more sophisticated?

Because improving communications have been reducing the number of such thousand dollar meets.

Or, wait. You two weren't thinking that I'm saying ALL face to face meets will be gone, were you? No, just most -- just as today, which while face to face meets do indeed happen a lot more happen over the telephone and by teleconferencing.

The reason face-to-face meets are so prevalent in Shadowrun is because of how ridiculously, stupidly, uberly powerful deckers/hackers are in the setting. There's no security measure they can't get around in the game, even against other hackers. Thus if you want to set up a conference call, you can almost guarantee someone is going to record it and use it against you, courtesy of the mysterious "pay data" they can find on any host/system/network/walkingdownMainStreet.

At least in face-to-face meetings you can scan for listening devices and have a significantly better chance of avoiding that.

Are you seriously comparing the way people communicate with long-term business partners and industry peers to the way that a corporate black-ops coordinator would communicate with a gang of off-the-grid criminals that he's hiring for the first time?

And some nice white noise generators, low-range signal jammers, and other such fun devices. It also cuts out the really bad band that's "playing" their latest "song".

You're the one who brought the concept to the table. Something about people paying thousands of dollars to do face to face...

Um....no I'm not. Regardless, the guy who did still has a point. Regardless of the type of business they're in, people prefer to meet in person when it really counts.

I think there is room for both virtual and "press the flesh" style meetings in the game. In the end I think it all comes down to personal preference. In a more Pink Mohawk style game MR. Johnson might not flinch at the presence of heavy weaponry. (Nice Mortar you have there Kill Master!) In a more Noir game even a heavy pistol may be frowned upon. There's no wrong way, only the way that you have fun with at your table.

You're right as to not being you. I apologize.

Nonetheless, it is fascinating to see current life being valid when it supports one side of an argument and ridiculed when it supports the other side.

That's not exactly what's going on here.

He questioned the wisdom of extrapolating that improvements in technology would make in-person meeting rare because, historically, this has not been the case. People have continued meeting in-person after the invention of the telegraph, telephone, cell phone, and video conferencing. His argument isn't based on "current life"; it's based on the arc of human history. Specifically, that face-to-face meeting creates trust.

Once trust has been established, then conducting shadow business via the Matrix makes a lot more sense, unless one of the parties is extremely paranoid. Both in-person and Matrix meets have their ups and downs, but I really don't think the game's mechanics support the idea that Matrix meets are either more secure or less dangerous than in-person meets.

Ah, but I didn't say ALL meetings would be electronic. I said a lot, and possibly most.

Just as today many, and arguably most, meetings are done electronically. I've got business people with whom I've dealt for some time that I've never met face to face, just as an example here.

As Paul notes there's room for either being dominant depending on your worldview. In mine, I crunched the numbers and came up with matrix meets being "safer" for the Johnson in most cases.

In fairness, I'm also biased by looking at the way matrix neuters most pornomancer tricks. Sure, direct increases to charisma (frex Increase attribute spell) work. But smells and kinetic reading and all those sorts of things go away. Though it's not stated as such, I can see a lot of corporate policies that require final decisions on people being made outside the reach of those people just to prevent tricks like this being effective.

Meat meets will happen. In my view of the world, matrix meets are the more common version when "professionals" are involved. ymwv.

Nobody has accused you of saying that "ALL" meetings would be electronically; the issue here is the assertion that "most" Shadowrun meets would be electronic. If we're talking about standard business meetings in 2070, then I'd be likely to agree with you.

Even today though...I work for a software company, and while we do a *ton* of conferencing with Skype and Go2Meeting, we send salespeople all over the place to talk with clients in person. Why? Because in-person demos are more meaningful than watching someone show you something on a computer screen from thousands of miles away.



It's almost nothing for a Johnson to have an internal air supply to neuter pheremones, if you're worried about that. I don't even think I'd bother; charisma isn't mind control, and if the Johnson is sent with a maximum of up-front cash on a credstick, there's nothing the players can do to squeeze more out of him.

Besides, if working via the Matrix provided the kind of guaranteed anonymity you're talking about, corps wouldn't need to use Johnsons at all, and they could probably stop hiring Shadowrunners for like 50% of their jobs.

heh - I never even mentioned mind control or any of those sorts of things. No, not correcting you, indicating that it's another reason Mr. Johnson might want to make the deal remotely...


Not guaranteed anonymity; a decent degree of anonymity helped by a large obscurity factor for meetings. Meetings aren't jobs.

They just supply all the names, places, details, and faces about the job. You're right, who cares if that gets hacked (and hacked SO easily by SO many)?

OK, Ol' Scratch.

How do the bad guys know about the meeting to be able to hack into it?

You need to watch more TV! And read cheap fiction! C'mon folks I get the desire to make the game feature some realism, so that we can relate to it, and stuff-but seriously folks loosen up. I mean I hate the PM's and we still manage to laugh at our table. It's roleplaying not an induction into the seminary.

Oh, I do plenty of that. Thing is that everything I know from those that lets them know for matrix meets also works for meat meets. What, the commlink is tapped? Then wasn't the connection with the fixer that led to the meet known already? Yes, it was. So the meat meet is just as vulnerable to a fly-spy or some stealth RFIDs being slipped into the room.

Ol' Scratch (for one) is at least implying that matrix meets are MORE vulnerable to the cheap fiction tricks, and so there's only One True Way. I say there are multiple ways and matrix, while having its own vulnerabilities, avoids meat vulnerabilities. And the "the bad guys know everything" vulnerability is just as easily done in meat as matrix.

Agreed. Completely!

What about using datajacks to perform the meeting in the meat? It's wired, and it's silent. Not everyone has a datajack, but it seems like a secure way to communicate.

My opinion:
If the Bad Guys know the meeting is going to happen, they're going to find a way to intercept/monitor. Or interfere, if that's appropriate.
[edited to add] As an example, hack into Mr. Johnson's commlink ahead of time and have it record the meeting.

Setting that worry aside, the primary advantage matrix holds over meat for Mr. Johnson is security from the Runners.

How many missions have you been on where immediately after the meeting as much time is spent identifying Mr. Johnson and his (possible/probable) hidden agenda as is spent on the mission and the bad guys Mr. Johnson identified?

That's a fault of individual game tables in my opinion. Unless there was a genuine reason to suspect the Johnson of double-crossing you, tracking down and identifying them every time is going to tank your reputation faster than just about anything.

Which is why you do it only when you feel something is wrong...

That's what I just said.

Kirk was suggesting that it was a regular occurrence.

I've read as many PbPs and game discussions as I can find. In the vast majority, someone checks out Mr. Johnson. Further, it's frequently discussed on this and other forums.

That leads me to believe it is a regular occurrence. Not regular as "always" as there are some who do not, but regular as in most typical action.

And again, that's what I said. It's a fault at individual game tables/games. It shouldn't be a regular occurrence, because if it is, no one's going to trust you. No one's going to hire you. No one's going to want anything to do with you whatsoever, because they know you'll be tracking them down and completely destroying the entire point of the whole thing.

Agreed. At some point, you have to trust the fixer-Johnson-etc. chain. Not doing so is going to require more expertise than your actual runs, more time than your actual runs, and make you unemployable as a shadowrunner. That doesn't mean 'trust 100%' and never do any checking; it means you can't trust 0% and constantly do all the checking. Even with a server farm of agents.

"I have four hundred toasters hooked up with Agent Programs just collecting data for me at all times! They're in a warehouse with the power coming from an illegal tap." "Frag man, what do you normally use them for?" "Mostly to find new porn that's available on the Matrix. And to filter out all the stuff I don't want."

In 20 years of playing the game, in several states and countries (ie. Multiple tables), I (and the people I game with) have only ever "Checked out the Johnson" a handful of times; and only in those instances where something seemed a bit hinky to start with. Now, that being said, on those occasions where the Johnson Screwed us, and we had not done our "research" before hand, we still had the files and videos to perform the search/research after the fact. It may have been a bit more difficult, but you will likely have a place (or several) to start.

Performing such research before hand, in all cases, will quickly lead to you being unemployable.

The odds are if you are about to sign a big deal with a client, it will happen face-to-face. Most if not all Shadowruns will potentially net the Johnson-as-client or the Johnson's client big money, hence I would argue that meat meets are more common than matrix ones. This position that seems to be held up by SR canon, with meat meets much more common than their virtual equivalent in published adventures and missions. At my table matrix meets are generally held more by geeky tech-savvy Johnsons and beginner Johnsons who might be a bit unnerved at meeting big bad runners in the flesh, but YMMV.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that virtual meets are "safer" for the Johnson - in general the Johnson chooses the venue and sets up with his security first, and if the runners are "professional" they should know better than to geek the Johnson. As for third-party ambushes, well the Johnson is probably screwed anyway if the security of their deal has been compromised.

As for pornomancer tricks, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and there are ways to counter pheremones. Also, at the end of the day, the Johnson has a hard max on what he will pay for the run; and if the runners really are good enough to talk themselves up a pay increase, they are that much more likely to succeed in their mission so fair doos.

Granted if the bad guys know the meet is going to happen they probably will try their best to find a way to intercept/moniter, but like folks have said it may not be as easy in the meat. Hacking the Johnson's commlink? Like I said before, if he/she is even semi-competent he won't have it turned on during the meet. Fly-spy drones and bugs? Again, I would presume any semi-competent J would sweep the meet room before the PCs arrive. Eavesdrop by laser-microphone or whatnot? If the backroom ain't equipped with a white noise generator, I am sure the Johnson will bring one to the party. Magical eavesdropping? If the Johnson is worried about that, he will probably choose a warded room for the meet.

As for matrix meets giving the Johnson "security from the runners", really? You mentioned before about matrix meets being for "professionals", and then you give the most incompetent unprofessional thing runners can do as a reason for not meeting face-to-face. What gives?

I will admit that the SR fluff is a little schizophrenic about checking out the Johnson. The fluff says it is considered unprofessional, but then there have been published adventures where it is assumed the PCs will check out the Johnson. I side with the fluff in this case. I mean, how would PCs react if they heard someone (the Johnson) was asking around about them, trying to find out where they hang out and where they live? In all probability they would go ballistic and move to neutralize this threat; for the Johnson trying to maintain deniability the reaction would be the same. I think Ol' Scratch and Can Ray have it right, in that the PCs should only move to check out the Johnson if their Scooby-sense is tingling telling them something is not quite right, or in the event that the Johnson double-crosses them.

And how so? Seriously, you're playing a game. Do you, as the GM, tell your players "Sorry, we have to make new characters because your old ones checked out all the J's and now noone wants to hire you."?

As a player I would certainly protest.

I also think there are differences to the degree of checking people out. First, the fixer should have checked out the J. No J could hope to find a professional (i.e. reputed) team without being checking out. Only beginner teams get the newbie johnsons, unless they set themselves up like the A-team or something and specifically take jobs from non-professionals. Secondly, there are checks that don't need asking around or posting on message boards - in any case I would say that is the crudest method. But a matrix search with image recognition and other stuff should happen, IMHO. It's not like the J won't try to check out the team, too.

I think there's a fine line to walk, here: J's want the most professional teams for their high-risk jobs, but obviously they still want them to be a deniable or even disposable asset. There will be tons of rabble offering their services, but a capable team will be harder to find. And so what do you do? IMHO it's a virtual necessity to check out the J in a non-intrusive way. Johnsons that don't like this very soon won't find capable teams, or will have to pay a lot more for them. The equation works both ways. The fluff is full of manipulative Johnsons who have an agenda that will eventually lead to problems. Usually for that to work out well for the runners the GM has to pull punches, or else it never would end up good.

Look, the INITIAL story of the SR4 sourcebook is about a J double-cross. Sersiously, if that's not full indication that you're supposed to distrust the J, then what is?

What kind of game is being played? Pink mohawk? Or black trenchcoat? (or variations inbetween)...This seems like the best indicator of how much the PCs need to dig in to the J's backstory, and how carefully.

On another note, I always see SR meets as coming together because of your fixer. If you trust your fixer, you don't worry about the J so much. If you have a really crappy fixer, maybe you're more nervous...

Well, in Pink Mohawk I don't need to check because I won't care how many things go wrong. In fact, I'll want them to.


I can trust the fixer, but how far? I trust the fixer to get me a job contract while trying to cover his own base. And the fixer is basically always straddling a chasm with crocodiles snapping for his balls, anyway. Basically the fixer is staking his very existence on the trustworthyness of both sides, because if things go bad between them, both sides might come knocking to him, and he's the only one with basically stationary assets. If he burns his bridges and goes under, then he'll be out of the game, because those bridges are his life. So, ok, that should make him both reliable but also very cautious, unless he's a gambler for high stakes. It still doesn't say anything about how turstworthy a Johnson really is, because when push comes to shove, it's still someone at the bottom of the food chain who will take the fall.

So, I'll maintain my position: Runners SHOULD try to cover their asses, because all the deals where they aren't supposed to usually end up going sour. However, obviously they have to play the game: If their inquiries become too obvious they'll be dropped. It's in the nature of clandestine business that you have to keep your knowledge, and your safeguards, to yourself.

...I just imagined a jury-rigged "white noise generator" in the form of a dildo duct-taped to a suction cup, placed on the window and turned on. As long as it works...

If your Johnson's dry up, you do your own thing. It happens. In fact, the current game I am in (On Fridays) is at that point right now. We are not being hired, not because of excessive unprofessionalism in checking out the Johnson, but because Most of the team has a reputation for not getting out of bed for less than 50k, and when the negotiations start, Johnsons are walking. Currently we are being hunted by a Johnson whom the team has screwed. Does not help that 2 of the team are heavily into advertisement. One from the P20 crap that he has become involved in, and the other, becasue his ego is so damned big (in his defense, he IS a Troll with an attitude, also does not help that his Notoriety is a 6, and he is proud of that). It seems that all of our prospects have dried up. Sucks, but there you go. It is a part of the story, and the team only has themselves to blame.



At most of our tables, we rely upon the Fixer for vetting. The Fixer is responsible for the connections after all. He verifies to the team that the Johnson is on the up and upo, and then he verifies to the Johnson that the team is professional and capable. Does this always work? No, but then the Fixer is the first person that is on the chopping block, from either side, becasue he controls the connections. His reputation is on the line, from both sides.



And you will notice that the investigation into the Johnson did not occur until after they got screwed over.

Well, from what I remember they didn't follow their hunches initially, which got them into the mess, so... they should have done their homework. If they had, they would not have lost team members.

This is exactly the problem: You don't trust your life on the word of a guy you don't REALLY know well. So unless that fixer is a loyalty 4-5+ connection I shouldn't really trust him.

Absolutely and on a regular basis.

Runner teams looking for work are getting, in effect, job interviews. Each team is being presented to Johnson based (hopefully!) on their qualifications, then they have to win the guy over. Bidding wars are common, wipeouts from behavior happen, different crews build up rivalries, and your reputation grows or tanks for lots of reasons.

Johnson runs down a vague list of what he wants to do with half a dozen teams, easy, before finally selecting one from the pool.

So, yeah, if teh RUnners push for too much, or if they act goony, or they aren't respectful enough, or ... well, any number of things can keep them from ever getting the job.

This is an excellent point.

It is true that sometimes job interviews in real life are done remotely.

However, ask yourself, what percentage are done face-to-face? And why is that?

Also, if you want to get the best of both worlds, security of a physical lockdown face-to-face with the disabling of many runner social boosting techniques, have the Johnson bring a wireless-disabled nexus to the meet, and insist the runners jack in to discuss "business" in the virtual space of the nexus.


-k