My hacker character has a full set of Cyberlimbs; Head, Torso, Full Arms (both), Full Legs (both.)

Unwired gives an example for a hacked cyberarm on page 102: "Seizing control of a cyberarm and using it to attack others, or even the cyberlimbed character." That sounds a lot like a matrix controlled arm.

Can I consider my own body partially pilot able via matrix? It sounds like if I was hacked, someone could control my movements. I don't see any reason I couldn't do it myself.

The more I look at it, the more I think the limbs could be controlled via matrix already, but because the body lacks actual Rigger Modifications, it can only be controled via software, not jumped into and rigged like a drone. Aditioanlly, the body lacks a Pilot program to make the limbs work togeather and function like a whole body or react to the enviroment. They don't likley sell such "body" pilots, so I'd have to code one up special I guess. I already have my various implants clustered together, so their is a single node that has full control of the body.

But in theory, I could make a pilot program to run my body while I'm in VR. I could issue commands to it and have it walk about, etc. It would be about as stiff as any other anthroform drone, but it would let me move about with my team while hacking in Hot Simm.

Or is this way nuts?

PS: I made the full body cyberware hacker for style and character reasons, not for this cheese. I've played in various runs without this being an issue. I'm just thinking through implications of his transhumanist life choices.

The short answer is 'no'.

The limb-hacking 'rules' are vague at best, but the safest interpretation is that you can control a limb only via Command, with all the limitations of it.

Logically, this kind of thing *should* be possible in a sufficiently advanced cyberpunk/transhuman setting. The rules just don't go that far at present. If you and the GM can work up something that's *balanced*, go for it.

Yeah I think this is something that you want to leave out of Shadowrun (at least for now the tech doesn't support it), for Eclipse Phase this is not only plausible but regularly done usually with someone at the table saying "Go fork yourself"

I recall that Eclipse Phase mission. Doc used Sita's worker pod to fire an assault rifle at the OZMA combat forks.

While the rules answer to this is a vehement "NO!" as a GM I would allow you to buy a program to do just that, only to find that said program refused to let go of your body once you wanted back in, as the program was actually the serial killer persona fix from Dreamchipper.
If you programed the thing yourself, I would claim you it was the serial killer twin you ate in the womb manifesting in code form.
In any event, I would avoid giving control of your body over to your GM.

That can be harder than it sounds.




-k

That's really hard

Yeah, and this has been discussed before: how are you controlling the limb? Did you also hack some sensors or something? How are you targeting things? Beyond the magic of Command-works-on-anything, are you sure you're able to adequately control it (presumably, Command is a suite of common applications; maybe it doesn't include this)?

It was irresponsible to toss in some blurb about limb-hacking options in the book without answering these.

Well, they don't sell them for your specific body, but they sell them for anthroforms. At worst it seems a modification of one of those Pilot programs would suffice.


I don't see any reason why not, but I'm a famously liberal GM who cares less about the letter of the rules than the reasonability of the idea.

Steve who chimed in before is one of the GM/Players in the Shadowrun game I roll in. His note "I think this is something that you want to leave out of Shadowrun," is essentially the rule that will govern my character.

Yeah... cyberlimbs are cool... the thought of building a drone out of them is neat...

Then you realize the writers gave drones and characters radically different sets of statistics. (IE: drones don't have agility and reaction).

For a well understood and fully RAW approach.. look at the stirrup interface for Move-By-Wire. It allows you to rig biodrones... and nothing in the rules stops you from installing it in your decker. Though, lets say you have 5 matrix passes... does that mean with a mere MbW1 (2 passes) you can now do 5?! (or do you treat it like the technomancer... and you get 5 passes only 2 of which can be meat). There's still a lot of loose ends in there.

Nothing in the rules *allows* you to install it in your hacker, and his character concept is full cyber. Also, Stirrup Interface is not, AFAIK, an add-on for MBW.

You nailed it when you said that the rules are a mis-match, though. Everything related to anthroforms and cyber-hacking is a quarter-baked mess.

So you're arguing a piece of cyberware published on page 153 of Augmentation is unavailable to PC's.... I don't know where to start with that one. It doesn't say anywhere the book that I can buy Move-By-Wire either for my character. It only lists the equipment and it's stats.

And yes you're right... it's not an upgrade. I wasn't saying it was. Only that it provides a means to remote control a biological entity and other than it's added remote control abilities and higher costs it's identical to MoveByWire.

The bit which is a mess is "A rigger jumped into the recipient will use his own skills at a -1 dice pool penalty when performing any actions". Does that mean you use stats of the recipient as if it were a drone (unlikely... since a biodrone doesn't have 'sensor' ratings and other necessaries). Only way I can make sense of it is to use the biodrones attributes+riggers skill-1.

I don't think balance wise it presents a huge issue though. Essentially you get a decker... who doesn't go full limp when he's in full VR. If you just take the -1 penalty above to heart... he takes a -1 penalty to all his meat actions but gains the ability to be full VR and interact with meat and VR at the same time. Something which otherwise is only available with some of the advanced technomancer echoes. Then you just need to be careful with how much he can act (so if he'd be able to do 5 passes full VR... and Stirrup1(MbW1) he'd still be limited to two meat passes.


The reason I originally looked into it was ages ago I considered playing an AI with a cloned Type O full body ($25000, p127) + stirrup module. Or a loyalty 6 contact with the module installed.

If I remember right the stirrup interface is expelictely mentioned as 'not yet existing for metahuman bodies' which pretty much nails it down out of a rigger's reach to puppet his body around. No mention is done of it's effects ont the brain's higher functions too - what works on a non-sentient critter might prove more detrimental when fitted to a meathuman brain.

On the 'rig your own cyberbody' angle, you'd probably better off having a look at the jarhead rules - hey're doing exactly that afterall. Though in my opinion to rig around a cyber combaitation that's designed to work with a DNI control like a drone you'd need to add the equivalent of a drone 'brain' to effectively coordinate and pilot the whole thing. And you'll probably want to invest in cybereyes and the like to act as sensors for your 'dronified' body. Otherwise the software will have a hard time figuring out what the hell it's doing and is happening around.

But like the stirrup interface it opens a can of very nasty worms by giving control of your body to somehting that can be controled by a third party. While retaining all the metahuman vulnerability to magical control.

Pretty much since the rules for cyborgs have allready been published, I would say anyone wanting to rig their body would have to abide by them.

Yes, Falconer, I'm arguing that gear unavailable to metahumans is… unavailable to metahumans. Come on, man. It's not like this is the first time someone thought of doing this. And there's a reason they thought of it: it seriously alters the power level of certain character types.

Is this explicit, or implicit? I haven't read all the biodrone rules.


In what way?

Yes of course you can. Then you can rig your own body, and since you're controlling it with your brain at the speed of thought, you get 3 IP (5 if you have the good ware and gear) and +2 to all your actions. Because you're not just controlling the body, you ARE the body. It's as if your body was your own body.

Seriously? No.

3278, Blade gave a decent overview of the high points right there. It also lets you replace literally any skill with Command (or, worse, Command CF), which is of course boosted by things like Codeslinger, etc. It basically applies every drone munchkinry you can imagine. It's also removing the (few) meat/matrix limitations on hackers (which is why they want to do it).

Not sure about the stirrup interface, I never really looked into the subject. A full set of cyberlimbs however is definitely a bad idea. The Skull and Torso are only shells i.e. there are no motors replacing the muscles. You would have to move your torso and your head in meatspace while jumped into the limbs.

Well, take an AI and make some human form drone the "host"....

That's a different concept. I think the idea behind the initial concept was to keep the cake and eat it. Get the benefits of rigging and being indistinguishable from a normal metahuman without having a body lying around.

I guess I'm just not clear on how that's significantly better than doing the same thing with a drone, or a cyborg, or a polar bear biodrone, or any of the other delightful things a hacker can use as a remote vehicle. Certainly, there are circumstances in which it'd be helpful, but considering the cost, the benefit doesn't seem like a drastic increase in power to me. Given the choice, I'd usually rather sit a few blocks away and be a blimp a kilometer in the sky than rig my own body into a place where there are bullets.

Correct me if I'm wrong - sorry, still trying to make the transition to SR4 - but isn't the idea that you'd need a cybertorso, a cyberskull, and four cyberlimbs, in exchange for 5 IPs but only in Hot Sim? So you replace your entire body and the good news is that you're going to end up burning out your brain from it. The bad news is, if you have an implanted commlink, people can drive you about like a marionette. [edit: And those are Obvious cyberparts: costs get much worse if you don't want to look like the Terminator.]

The use of Command only applies if you're remote-controlling, and that means each Simple Action is a Complex Action, correct? Those 5 IPs aren't so useful, then, anyway. There are cheaper ways to get your attributes to whatever you can get Command to, and get five Simple Actions a round.

Cost? The stirrup costs and works like a Move-by-Wire system, so even a Level 1 costs 45,000, but it also requires 2.5 points of Essence. You're not going to do this with anything less than deltaware, so you're looking at 450,000 to get +2 Reaction, +1 Dodge, and +1 IP when you're in your body normally, plus the ability to rig yourself, and gets the essence down to 1.25. Add to that your delta-grade cyberbody and your delta Control Rig - no sense in doing it if you're not going to get that +2! - and commlink, and you're up to 1,470,000 nuyen and down to 1.275 points of essence, and that's assuming you're keeping your own eyeballs. And what's the Availability on a deltaware human stirrup?

It just doesn't seem like a massive portal to abuse. It doesn't even seem like a better alternative to rotodrones, much less to cyborgs. Or, for the application it's being discussed for [keeping the body moving with the rest of the team], a Segway.

@Dakka Dakka
As far as I understood it, it was have a methahuman body (would be fitting for the AI to) and hack while your body is taken care of by command. That is working just fine with the AI in the drone...
So there you still get to keep and eat your cake....

@3278

It is another way to get the same benfits.

It's a hell of a lot easier than being a cyborg, more capable than a Segway, and more *metahuman* than a rotodrone… while also not precluding those options. You can still do the blimp, and everything else.

Apart from the full cyber option, people have been discussing using MBW or Stirrup to skip that entirely. There are various methods. Even without a full cyber body, people have suggested that they can hack their own limbs (even just one) to get extra actions/dice/etc.

Yes, the Command *option* can't be used at the same time as rigging. That doesn't make the ability to get 6, 9, 12 on *any* skill useless.

Etc. You're not looking at the total package. No, it's not a perfect god-mode. Yes, it significantly increases the powers/removes the limits of certain characters.

How is it easier? I'm genuinely asking: I don't know.


A couple million nuyen more capable? I don't see how.


Yeah, but you can be all those things, and yourself, without spending a couple million nuyen and all your essence. You don't gain enough from the ability to be yourself through the stirrup to justify its expense.


Wow. Six whole dice, two whole hits, for 5 simple actions a round? Be still my heart. I'm sorry, but this isn't going to tilt the game sideways. Not at these kinds of costs. I mean, if this all came for free, sure, but it comes at a pretty hefty series of costs.


I'm looking at the total package, including its costs, and it's a rip-off. The cost isn't worth the anemic benefits; there are less expensive ways of achieving the same goals.

In the sense that you can't be a cyborg at all, infinitely easier.

The Segway (moving your corpse around) is only one small aspect of the package.

It's *every* skill in the game, not just during combat (the only time IPs matter). You'll notice I didn't only say 6 dice.

I also never said it was better for all characters. I said that this change to the rules can significantly alter the balance of certain characters.

Okay, I guess maybe I haven't been clear: I'm not that familiar with cyborgs in SR4, so I'm asking for specific details of why they're impossible. It's cool if you don't have time or whatever, but this cryptic sentence doesn't really get me any closer to understanding. Am I using the term wrong? Am I imaging the existence of cyborgs in SR4, what?


I'm sorry, again, I'm not clear. Are you saying that, while remote controlling yourself, you'll get your Command dice for Neurosurgeon Skill tests, whether you have Neurosurgeon at all? And if that's so, how is this unique to the condition of remote controlling yourself?


And my point is: no, I don't think it does. I think it's prohibitively expensive for its benefits, and thus doesn't alter the balance of power for anyone. If you could perhaps help me to understand why you believe this concept is significantly unbalancing, I'd appreciate it. If you can't, please, by all means feel free not to, but Mr Cryptic doesn't benefit anyone.

Can I just have a delta-MBW3 instead, sans the cyberlimbs? Please?


If you want to turn into metal-man I would suggest to get turned into a jarhead for less money and invest the savings into a few solid bodies.

@3278

The same reason you are not able to play immortal elfs or great dragons. Not in the scope of the rules for PCs...

I guess he is talking about physical skills...


Lets cut it short. It would also work with MBW 3 (or 1 or 2). (Or it could be argued so...)
And the full body replacement offers other benefits too.

Yes of course there are even better ways to get an even more effective character.
I have written about the AI in a drone body. Much worse as far as I am concerned.
The karmagen made free spirit with multible and realistic form, if you really take it to the extream.
Some infected characters.

But still, this is a big gain in power...

No, 3278, a PC *can't* be a cyborg. That's not cryptic. It's not allowed. The question would also be altered if any non-F non-solid-gold anthroforms existed, and if PC-cyborgs were possible; but they don't and they're not.

Yes, AFAIK you can use Command for any skill. No, I don't agree with it. I'm just relaying various munchkin applications I recall from other threads about this topic. I'm not sure what you mean about 'unique', though. Any device that can do something can be Commanded to do it (a gross oversight in the rules, I think); the difference is that a metahuman 'device' can do everything.

Getting 5 IPs 'in the flesh' is (/should be) totally impossible for anyone, so that's a unique advantage. It's also true that things like AIPC/FSPC might do something similar, better, but we're not talking about them. Again, I certainly didn't say this was the one true god-mode option.

Honestly, I'm assuming you'd be getting something like MBW anyway. This seems like a fair assumption, based on the threads I've read. And I thought I was clear that it's *either* MBW/Stirrup/whatever, *or* cyberlimbs. I also don't think we're necessarily talking about chargen characters, which alters the cost comparisons a bit. Either way, here's the premise: you're a character who already has full (or *any*) cyberlimbs, or something like MBW/Stirrup. That's a *given*. Given that, altering the limb-hacking/human-rigging rules vastly helps that character.

These crazy munchkin builds aren't mine, and I don't have the links; it's just stuff I've picked up since I've been here. If I had to guess, I'd blamce Udoshi and/or Neraph. You should be able to search for prominent threads about 'rig myself', 'metahuman stirrup', 'full cyber', etc.

I think the two choices are:
1. Sort-of-within-the-rules, full cyber body, or,
2. Not in the rules, Custom human stirrup, which is basically your MBW+a rigger black box.

When I wrote the above, it as if you'd need both, which on reflection I don't think anyone's really saying. Still, even as an either/or proposition, I don't think I'd call it worthwhile.


That's certainly how it seems to me, but what the hell do I know? [Very, very little. ]

I really think the issue is that we've been using different baselines. I've been assuming you're starting with the cyberlimbs/MBW, and you're assuming you're starting at zero. (This isn't an error, just a difference.)

Personally (and I think this is a general position), I find full cyber to be very sub-optimal (and not my taste, either). However, some people want this. Given that, they'll do it. Given that, changing the rules in the ways we've mentioned dramatically alters their abilities.

This is similar to the same situation (full cyber) and the cyber armor rules. Given a full cyber body, interpreting the stacking of cyber armor differently dramatically alters the power of that character (up or down, depending).

Contrary to the common definition in SR4 a cyborg is not any organism with cybernitic implants, it is a brain in a jar with an interface to control drones including humanoid ones. Allowing PCs to use his jarhead, which is a much more fitting name for the concept, is actively discouraged by the authors:

Ah: there's a prohibition against PC cyborgs? That seems wildly arbitrary. Why?


I don't agree with it, either. That doesn't fit with anything I understand about skills or Command. I understand you're just passing the ideas along, but if neither of us agree with those ideas, let's dispense with them: we agree Command doesn't work this way, so the point is moot.


What's so great about it being "in the flesh?" To me, that seems like a liability, indeed the reason for drones in the first place.


The stirrup definitely is, yes: it's an MBW, plus a rigger black box, for animals. I don't see why one couldn't be made for human animals.


Yeah, that was my bad: I was responding to someone else, who believed you'd need both. On reflection, clearly it should be either/or.


I think that right there is why I don't see this as a big problem: because this wouldn't be a munchkin issue at our table, it'd be an opportunity for something interesting. We had full-body cyborgs, in SR3, before the rules supported them; we had one who was, due to heavily SR3 rules weaknesses, essentially unkillable, and it wasn't a problem, so maybe my perspective on rules flexibility is different? Instead of banning specific avenues of abuse, we prevent player dickishness in other ways, so maybe it's just one of those things where I just don't get how bad it'd be with a different group.

If I had a delta-MBW3 I´d most certainly NOT want to have rigger adaption installed. Anyone who can hack my link could make me kill anyone I meet. As a player I would not ask my GM if my body can be remote-controlled. He does fine without me giving him ideas. So yes, my 2 cents say "not worthwile", too.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I do understand that the use of "cyborg" in SR4 has a specific meaning, but the interesting part here is what you've quoted: by my reading, nothing in that prevents a PC from being a cyborg, only discourages it is a "roleplaying challenge," [which I would call worthy of encouragement, but different strokes]. So PC cyborgs are indeed possible, but simply require GM approval, as indeed a metahuman stirrup interface would. But I think this is just one of those cases where the game I'm playing ain't the same as the game others are playing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It's outlined on page 162 of Augmentation.

Ryu, by that logic, you don't want any riggable drones either. *shrug*

It's not a roleplaying challenge, it's a game balance challenge. Post-chargen characters make cruddy jarbrains, and chargen jarheads violate a number of the chargen rules (I mean, apart from 'it's not allowed'). So, it's not 'just' GM approval, it's GM collusion. Which is fine, but it's not the base rules.

I agree that the 'easy' way to deal with all game abuse is a strong table/GM/player relationship, but that's a given. We're talking about rules design.

Becoming a Jar-Head really isn't an option, nor is it what I was looking for.

Firstly, it's not possible to do at character creation without bribing the heck out of a GM in order to bypass the restrictions and get enough BP, cash, etc. The procedure is expensive and restricted beyond character generation limits.

You could, in theory, afford to do it some time after character creation, but there are nasty drawbacks to becoming an adult jar-head, even beyond those for all cyborgs. At the very least, it takes months of adaptation time (including therapy and drugs), not counting the surgery itself.

Lastly, the advantages of jar-heads (multiple passes, built in rank 5 skillwires, body swapping, no physical skills) are far beyond what I was looking for. I really just wanted to order my body to walk around while I did VR stuff.

At this point I'm sticking with my Cyclopes Mono-cycle. It's small, easy stored, electric silent, and has the built-in gyro-stabilization that allows it to drive itself. It won't climb a fence or win a gun fight, but it will let me follow the rest of the group while in VR. It's also a little bit silly, and so very unsubtle.

Rigged drones are fine. I would just not get my only body involved in that business.

From the rules as given I repeat the suggestion to ask for becoming a jarhead. With a "WAR!" enhanced link.

I know the line of conversation we went down didn't show it, but I certainly believe you and your table could allow (via adding house rules) the limited functionality you're interested it. The key to any change is usually just balancing the costs, and fitting it specifically to your table.

Maybe human-rigging exists to the point that you can perform jerky, gross movements like walking, but no skill actions at all (theoretically reasonable, limited, possibly balanced). Etc. Sorry for the doom and gloom.

Ryu, rigged vehicles that you're riding in, then. My point is that you always have to trade something for something. You're not interested in that trade (and maybe for good reasons), but somebody is interested in it, that's all.

Actually one of the rotating GMs for my table made a comment in the thread that it's not somewhere he wants our Shadowrun games going. I'm ok accepting that.

The monocycle is actually a left over from one of the runs he did it's already legal at the table.

Why not a PMV?

Monocycle is Cheaper...

Well, cheaper than the Horseman, anyway, but faster than both the Horseman and the Segway! It's a way cooler, way more versatile choice than the PMVs, but the Segway should be better in situations where you really need to take up no more space than a metahuman. The Cyclops isn't a little monowheel, after all: it's scooter-sized.

No, the choices are between
1. not possible within the rules at all full cyber body... (and there are pointedly no rules for turning a mess of cyberlimbs into a drone and a CCU costs too much to obtain in chargen).
2. Well within the rules... MbW system. It's not custom, it's published with reasonable cost and availability.
3. Technomancer... look at the Acceleration Echo... then look at Mesh reality.

Quite frankly... I don't agree that someone can get 5 MEAT passes using any of these with a biodrone. Even the example cyber-kitty if you installed a Stirrup-1. I don't buy that the tiger somehow now moves even faster than it could naturally. And I for sure don't buy that you can control your own body faster by knocking yourself unconscious... and then adding an extra abstraction layer just to 'jump' back into it as a rigger.

As for the rest... all you're doing is highlighting the standard problems in the system with any of the humanoid drones. (and don't forget to look at their costs as well for those drones).


Quite frankly. The only reason I brought it up was to make a DECKER who wasn't doing a professor Xavier imitation unconscious in a wheelchair while decking during a run... allowing him to mesh reality by acting in VR hacking and meat at the same time. (even if he has 5 passes... if he only has stirrup 1... as far as I'm concerned he only has 2 meat passes).

The other thing you haven't seemed to realize at all is it's actually very dangerous to rig your own body. Look at the feedback damage rules. If you take damage... you then need to resist the damage AGAIN. The only advantage is that by the stirrup interface rules... you MIGHT be able to dodge the attack using your reaction -1. (the stirrup interface rules adds special rules... specifically saying to use the characters skills -1). I read that to mean that you don't use Gunnery like you do when using a drone... but you use the critters agility + your unarmed skill -1. (normally the attack would be sensor + gunnery... the biodrone has no sensor rating! and rigging a normal drone you'd use it's response... again the biodrone has no response... only a reaction score)

There's a lot of holes in the rules... and as a GM those holes give you a lot of leeway to limit things. Such as the fact that stirrup interface says that it's possible for a rigger to jump into the drone and take it over... but nowhere does it say you can use a command program and remote control it that way. Without a pilot program interface... command software just doesn't work IMO.

MBW is not Stirrup.

Yes, someday they'll re-fix anthroforms.

Hacker.

Yeah, I like that point about Jump-In only. I hadn't realized. It's easy to get distracted with these nutty rules; did you ever see the thread where someone (I won't even say) argued that a Stirrup'd animal may take Vehicle mods? Sigh.

This is the only actual answer. There's absolutely nothing in the rules that suggests there's any way to do the majority of what's being discussed here: it's all completely outside the rules as written. A stirrup is a piece of cyberware for biodrones, not metahumans, and if one existed for metahumans, I think all but the most pedantic among us would agree it'd be discussed. You can't rig yourself within the scope of the rules.


Where are the rules for rigging someone though their move-by-wire system?


That seems perfectly reasonable. Of course, if the only goal is to walk or run with the team, I'd be pretty comfortable taking my -6 dice to "walk dumbly," too.


It doesn't move any faster than it did before. It reacts faster than it did before. The amount of time between taking in stimulus and responding to it is shorter; that's being accelerated by your neural enhancements. If you put the Tin Man and the Terminator each in a car, the limiting factor isn't the car, it's the driver: the hardware isn't the bottleneck.


Yeah, that seems pretty dumb.


I'm not sure what makes you think I don't realize that, but, sure, okay.


Well, while I agree it doesn't say you can't use Command software to remote control the biodrone [although from a reasonability perspective I don't have any problem with it], there [i]is a "pilot program interface," [Augmentation, p153] so if that's your deciding factor as to whether or not remote control is a viable means of control, then you should by all means embrace it.

Ditto, 3278: you *can* override the RAS Override and simply take a -6. Given SR4A dice pools, that's basically nothing to worry about.

Remote Control/Command *doesn't* require a Pilot. It's just magic. However, in the interest of balance, I'm happy to ignore the reason behind not allowing something like that. Hehe. Besides, it does kind of make sense that 'real' rigging is required. Definitely a gray area.