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Paul
So I happen to be reading through Shadowplay-and it's been years since I'd last read it. (Well okay decades.)-but I was wondering how any of you feel about the idea that lost technology is potentially being repressed. That perhaps technology should actually be further along.

Thoughts?
CanRay
It's locked away and screaming, "Help, help, I'm being repressed!!!"
bibliophile20
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 29 2011, 10:16 PM) *
It's locked away and screaming, "Help, help, I'm being repressed!!!"


I was about to ask if there's any violence inherent in the system, and then remembered the line about shooting people in the face for money... biggrin.gif cyber.gif biggrin.gif silly.gif
3278
That's interesting: lostech became a major factor in Battletech, but I'm not sure it was ever mentioned outside of Findlay's Shadowplay. The idea that technology - high-end research, particularly - was lost during the Crash[es] is a reasonable one, although not one I think I've ever explored in game.

We should have a Shadowrun Book Club, where each month we pick a different novel, sourcebook, or adventure to read through and discuss. I've been thinking of reading all the Shadowrun products in publication order, not something I think I've ever done before. Lot of dross in there, though.
CanRay
Well, to be fair, by 2050 most LostTech was found again, or re-invented. Whereas in BattleTech it was spread across planets.
Christian Lafay
I would think tech would be going fast enough to outpace lost tech with high end virtual environments with real world physics and chemistry. Be a bit like that artifact from Exalted.
CanRay
LostTech from Crash 2.0, and even the Dues Archology Incident (Lots of Nanotech there to discover!) would still be effective, as the Corps had to work more on infrastructure rebuilding rather than R&D until recently.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 30 2011, 06:49 AM) *
LostTech from Crash 2.0, and even the Dues Archology Incident (Lots of Nanotech there to discover!) would still be effective, as the Corps had to work more on infrastructure rebuilding rather than R&D until recently.

Mmmm, nanotech. How many more decades before we get nanoswarm androids that are more like the T-1000 or Human-Form Replicators? Or even the Foglets from Transmet. That's what I want to know.
Ascalaphus
The transition from conventional industry and economy to some sort of Diamond Age system would totally transform the power balance - it'd hurt S-K and other companies invested in heavy industry, for example. They've got a motive to suppress that kind of technology.
Bull
I will say that this has been discussed a little bit behind the scenes.

the idea of lost technology is something I'd like to explore down the line at some point, actually. not so much in the Battletech vein of "We have this awesome Losttech that's powerful!" but in the vein of using it to explain why Shadowrun developed differently.

Also, I'm personally a big fan of the idea that the corps are repressing technology. And information. And people. Always people. smile.gif The corps are all about control, almost as much as they are about profit.

Bull
snowRaven
I believe there's been mention of it in the past besides Shadowplay, but I'm not sure where.

Since early SR1 at least, me and my players have had the understanding that a lot of stuff got lost during the first Crash (as well as in the VITAS plagues), which caused a shift in tech development.
CanRay
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Dec 30 2011, 07:19 AM) *
I believe there's been mention of it in the past besides Shadowplay, but I'm not sure where.

Since early SR1 at least, me and my players have had the understanding that a lot of stuff got lost during the first Crash (as well as in the VITAS plagues), which caused a shift in tech development.
Crash 1.0 also caused power surges that destroyed electronic infrastructure which includes microwave communications, POTS, Internet/Matrix routing systems, and a whole host of other fragile electronics. Rioting did a lot as well.

Just rebuilding the infrastructure to allow for things took decades, even with Megacorporation Money behind it. Think how long it took for use to go from the creation of the Cell Phone Network (Invented in the 1930s/1940s for police radios in cars) to civilian use of it (Commercial Services eventually, and finally Consumer use in the 1980s.). All that had to be rebuilt, save the copper wiring and the fiber optic trunks.

And that's just one part.
Paul
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 29 2011, 11:50 PM) *
Well, to be fair, by 2050 most LostTech was found again, or re-invented.


QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Dec 30 2011, 12:36 AM) *
I would think tech would be going fast enough to outpace lost tech with high end virtual environments with real world physics and chemistry. Be a bit like that artifact from Exalted.


I think this is a valid answer, however a counter point to this is the concept of technology repression-as presented in Shadowplay it actually makes for a fun story and does have some potential validity. (Depending on how you approach the game world.)

Now that said I am virtually certain in some areas Technology has indeed passed so called "Lost tech"-but the concept isn't a vague one, and it's actually touched on in a couple of areas in the game. (For instance off the top of my head the Kellan Colt books deal with finding a lost weapons stash right? It's shoe string but still valid.)

Also a concept brought up in Shadowplay I'd totally forgotten-I really like 3278's idea of SR book club-was the idea that the Crash of 29 was potentially a targeted strike, that purposefully chose servers that had more information and security on it-like R&D servers and datastores.
Paul
QUOTE (Bull @ Dec 30 2011, 02:57 AM) *
I will say that this has been discussed a little bit behind the scenes.

the idea of lost technology is something I'd like to explore down the line at some point, actually. not so much in the Battletech vein of "We have this awesome Losttech that's powerful!" but in the vein of using it to explain why Shadowrun developed differently.

Also, I'm personally a big fan of the idea that the corps are repressing technology. And information. And people. Always people. smile.gif The corps are all about control, almost as much as they are about profit.

Bull


I like this, and am glad to hear it. (Wait. Crap I've agreed with Bull. there goes my street cred! biggrin.gif nyahnyah.gif )
Xahn Borealis
Desktop forges, right?
Paul
Well the one piece of technology described in Shadowplay was the ability to compromise Fiber Optic communications. So yeah some of this stuff would be some serious stuff. I should point out that I'm not suggesting this should play a common role in every day life of a Shadowrunner-rather that it's an interesting angle to explore.
Xahn Borealis
Crash-in-a-box, Availability: FORGET IT
stevebugge
I saw the topic of Lost Technologies and I instantly thought of 8-Tracks and Betamax and things that were defeated by cheaper inferior technologies with better marketing campaigns. I would suspect that by 207x there are tons of these around ranging from old technology still being used in remote parts of the world to discarded projects the Megas pulled the plug on because of money, competition, internal politics, focus groups to technology developed by independent inventors who never found a buyer or market for their idea or ideas that were bought and buried to keep them from coming to market.
CanRay
"Muh Elvis 8-Tracks!!!"
KarmaInferno
The Library of Alexandria. Imagine how much knowledge and development was lost when it burned.




-k
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 30 2011, 04:33 PM) *
The Library of Alexandria. Imagine how much knowledge and development was lost when it burned.

-k
Called 'em "Dark Ages" for a reason. Also why there's so many Roman Ruins instead of Roman Buildings. They were looted for stonework that people forgot how to work with. The bridges were too damned useful to loot, at least, and only started getting blown up real good during WWII.
KarmaInferno
Now imagine it was Harlequin that really caused the fire, and that he actually had a damn good reason to do so.

I smell plot.




-k
Xahn Borealis
[derailment]Forgive me for asking, but who IS this Harlequin? All I know is what knasser wrote in his Questions file:
QUOTE
Who is Harlequin?
An urban myth. Forget about it. Just because a death goes unexplained, there's no need to
go inventing nightmares. Seriously, forget it.
[/derailment]
stevebugge
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 30 2011, 12:56 PM) *
Now imagine it was Harlequin that really caused the fire, and that he actually had a damn good reason to do so.

I smell plot.




-k


Possibly part of the long running feud with Ehran...
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Dec 30 2011, 04:56 PM) *
Now imagine it was Harlequin that really caused the fire, and that he actually had a damn good reason to do so.

I smell plot.

-k
"Oh, that place? It's where my bartender kept the IOUs I wrote him over um, actually, it might have been a family of bartenders, come to think of it... Eight, nine generations... Maybe ten?"
Blade
I use lost tech (and SIVTA) to explain why in the 2070s the world isn't as advanced as we can expect it to be by then, but I don't use it more than that. I expect that in 40 years, corps will have either found major lost tech data or reinvented it.

But there are a lot of other lost data that are interesting to consider: personal data, minor administrative data that could matter (for a land to be granted extraterritorial rights, the corp has to own it, what happens if someone finds a paper showing that he's the owner of that parcel of land right under some corp's headquarter?) and cultural works. I've mentioned this in Style Over Substance (see signature) with "neo-archeologists" whose work is to find lost data and with copyrights laws (explaining how corps used lost cultural works to get even more profitable copyright laws, and how MCT now owns the rights to the circle-A).
snowRaven
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 31 2011, 12:52 AM) *
I use lost tech (and SIVTA) to explain why in the 2070s the world isn't as advanced as we can expect it to be by then, but I don't use it more than that. I expect that in 40 years, corps will have either found major lost tech data or reinvented it.

But there are a lot of other lost data that are interesting to consider: personal data, minor administrative data that could matter (for a land to be granted extraterritorial rights, the corp has to own it, what happens if someone finds a paper showing that he's the owner of that parcel of land right under some corp's headquarter?) and cultural works. I've mentioned this in Style Over Substance (see signature) with "neo-archeologists" whose work is to find lost data and with copyrights laws (explaining how corps used lost cultural works to get even more profitable copyright laws, and how MCT now owns the rights to the circle-A).


Those are all interesting, but the land ownership issue can get complicated in places, with existing laws for squatting rights and what-not. In a fair amount of places, the owner of land etc has only a certain amount of time to object to squatters, or he forfeits his ownership of the land (apartment; whatever).
Stahlseele
Well, in Shadowrun 4, the one really important lost tech that was in the universe(ability to wiretap fibre wire communications and CHANGE the communication) would not be that important anymore, now that most things are wireless and not using fibre wire cabled communication channels anymore . .
Paul
Especially since wireless communication is pretty much insecure in every way possible.
Stahlseele
Don't have to tell me that.
I do tech-support.

Want it easy, fast, cheap, reliable, stable, secure?
You use a goddamn cable or stop complaining <.<
CanRay
"But I'm paying more for this wireless service, it's got to be better!" *Headdesk* "You talked to the Sales guy, didn't you?"
Paul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 30 2011, 09:47 PM) *
Want it easy, fast, cheap, reliable, stable, secure?
You use a goddamn cable or stop complaining.


Heh, luckily both in my games and real life I didn't jump on board with the wireless revolution. biggrin.gif
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 31 2011, 02:35 AM) *
Well, in Shadowrun 4, the one really important lost tech that was in the universe(ability to wiretap fibre wire communications and CHANGE the communication) would not be that important anymore, now that most things are wireless and not using fibre wire cabled communication channels anymore . .

Intercept Traffic. Alter Traffic. p. 230, SR4a.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (Paul @ Dec 30 2011, 10:59 AM) *
Well the one piece of technology described in Shadowplay was the ability to compromise Fiber Optic communications. So yeah some of this stuff would be some serious stuff. I should point out that I'm not suggesting this should play a common role in every day life of a Shadowrunner-rather that it's an interesting angle to explore.


Heck, we've been able to comrpromise those for years now. Pre-2000 even. There's some crazy tech out there thats lips under the radar, like how we can sift through the ashes of a fireplace, gather up the page sthat were burned, and reconstitute the pages. That's *insane* to me, lik etrue magic, but, we've had it for years.

For me, I'm also interested in the lost population. With teh resource rush, several wars, VITAS 1, 2, and 3, race riots, starvation, etc etc etc, the population of the 6th world has taken a *hit*, but, we also have metroplexes that have more people in them in 2073 than they do today.I need to sit down with the 6WA and figure out what the 'modern' population is.
CanRay
Too high. Time for VITAS 4.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 31 2011, 06:58 AM) *
Too high. Time for VITAS 4.

CanRay, a promoter for decimation.
CanRay
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Dec 31 2011, 02:35 AM) *
CanRay, a promoter for decimation.
Oh, far more than 1-in-10... Far, far more...
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 31 2011, 08:18 AM) *
Oh, far more than 1-in-10... Far, far more...

You would have liked a game I was in where our goal was to make Texas a free state. There weren't many citizens left but they were hardy and dedicated.
snowRaven
QUOTE (CanRay @ Dec 31 2011, 08:18 AM) *
Oh, far more than 1-in-10... Far, far more...


A man to my liking!!! grinbig.gif
Paul
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Dec 31 2011, 12:46 AM) *
For me, I'm also interested in the lost population. With teh resource rush, several wars, VITAS 1, 2, and 3, race riots, starvation, etc etc etc, the population of the 6th world has taken a *hit*, but, we also have metroplexes that have more people in them in 2073 than they do today.I need to sit down with the 6WA and figure out what the 'modern' population is.


Funnily enough 3278 and I were just having this discussion the other day.
3278
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Dec 30 2011, 10:00 PM) *
[derailment]Forgive me for asking, but who IS this Harlequin? All I know is what knasser wrote in his Questions file: [/derailment]

Emotions run deep about this character, both because he's an Immoral Elf [Child of the Dragons], and because he's featured prominently in a couple of controversial adventures, but I think this wikia page tells the tale as well as any.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Dec 31 2011, 06:46 AM) *
For me, I'm also interested in the lost population. With teh resource rush, several wars, VITAS 1, 2, and 3, race riots, starvation, etc etc etc, the population of the 6th world has taken a *hit*, but, we also have metroplexes that have more people in them in 2073 than they do today.I need to sit down with the 6WA and figure out what the 'modern' population is.

Paul and I recently did some calculations, involving the figures for VITAS, current and projected population growth rates, and so on, and it's interesting how closely they match today's population figures...almost as if someone invented the figures for VITAS with the express mathematical purpose of making 2050s population figures easy to calculate.
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (3278 @ Dec 31 2011, 04:52 PM) *
Emotions run deep about this character, both because he's an Immoral Elf.

I see what you did there.
CanRay
Harley is the Slamm-0! of the Immortals (Dragons and Elves from the Fourth World.).
Xahn Borealis
So who's the Netcat? biggrin.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ Dec 31 2011, 10:07 PM) *
So who's the Netcat? biggrin.gif
You'd have to read EarthDawn to know that... And it's a sad, sad story...

He isn't known as "The Last Knight Of The Crying Spire" for nothing...

EDIT: Either that, or it's Frosy, which, um, is pretty much cradle robbing for Harley. 'Course, he's debauched himself in every other way already... wink.gif
Stahlseele
Would Aina Sluage not have been the Immoral Elf Netcat?
CanRay
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 1 2012, 07:35 AM) *
Would Aina Sluage not have been the Immoral Elf Netcat?
Don't know, did she become a Technomancer? nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
[ Spoiler ]
Grinder
[ Spoiler ]
Xahn Borealis
That awkward moment when spoilers.
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