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Machiavelli
I am wondering if the surge limit of 30BPīs is the absolute limit or if you could gain additional surge-changings during the game, like you can buy further qualities? Is there a specific ruling for this i have possibly overread?
Jhaiisiin
There's debate that 30 is the limit, regardless. However, there are no rules specifying what you mention. In my own games, I'd allow it, so long as you took negative traits as well to keep the overall ratio balanced.
bibliophile20
Agreed. If you have some awesome concept but you need 50 points of positives to make it work, then you're gonna also be taking a large helping of negatives as well.
Glyph
SURGE III is the highest level of SURGE, but you can still buy positive and negative SURGE qualities with your remaining allowable quality points. So you could get 20 more points of positive SURGE qualities and 35 more points of negative SURGE qualities, for a total of 50 points of each, if you spent your entire 35 positive/35 negative on SURGE.

After the game, as with any quality, it is up to the GM as to whether to allow it or not. I could see it happening, myself, as a further mutation.
Falconer
As with most qualites with ratings... you can only take the quality once with a single rating generally. (you don't buy pain tolerance, 1,2, and 3 seperately for total 6).

I don't buy that you can buy surge I, II, and III seperately...

MAYBE allow for increasing from I -> II... though I'd exact a price in negative qualities for it (quite probably even picking the negative surge quality which comes with the positive).

Then again, I find SURGE is a lousy very poorly balanced quality so I'm a bit biased. (especially the exceptional attribute bits).
Glyph
I concur - getting SURGE I, II, or III is the only time you get a "package deal" on SURGE qualities. Additional qualities, or ones the GM lets you buy after play begins, are bought on a piecemeal basis.
Falconer
I misunderstood... I thought you were saying they'd be able to take 'Changeling" multiple times... once in chargen... then again and again and again.

Then again, I just reread that section and I'm shocked... metagenic qualties are available to ANY meta, or any human with the changeling quality. So anyone who takes ANY meta is free to take metagenic qualtities at no additional cost without surging and without suffering the automatic distinctive style drawback that comes with all the advanced character options in the book.

EG: a dwarf could spend 25BP to be a dwarf... spend 200BP on attributes. AND then spend 20BP of his basic qualities on metagenic improvement. Raising his reaction from a 5(7) max to a 6(9) max... Or similarly a troll could eliminate or reduce a penalized attribute like (dex)... or charisma. Even less reason to ever take... exceptional attribute positive quality for the same cost.

Reading that through... ANY character could spend 15BP on changling/surged III... for +30/-15 metagenic qualties PLUS an additional 20BP unspent positive qualities. For a total 50/-15 metagenic if they so desired.
Glyph
Metavariants are the only ones who can buy SURGE qualities without being changelings - in other words, a dwarf or troll couldn't, but a haruman or minotaur could. Note that all metavariants suffer Distinctive Style, so there is no getting away from that. Theoretically, you could make a SURGE character where Distinctive Style makes no sense - say, SURGE II with Metagenetic Improvement/Body and Allergy: Silver, Severe. But in my opinion, such a build is going against the flavor of SURGE. Even SURGE I should at least have anime-style hair or unual-looking eyes.

Exceptional Attribute is an overpriced quality. There is definitely no reason to take it when the Metagenetic Improvement quality gives the same advantage and an actual +1 bonus for the same price (and it can effectively be gotten cheaper with a SURGE quality).

But then again, you can also get the same advantage as Exceptional Attribute with either a 10-point quality (genetic heritage, to get genetic optimization - it also costs you 0.20 Essence, but makes further genemods cheaper), or simpy by buying genetic optimization - it costs you 9 BP, and the same Essence cost, so the latter is only cost-effective if you need points for other qualities more than you need starting resources.

So Exceptional Attribute is the most expensive out of the three ways of buying higher Attributes - but that fits the overall theme of the game, where metatype and augmentations can increase Attributes cheaper and more easily than raising them "naturally".
snowRaven
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jan 2 2012, 06:22 PM) *
There's debate that 30 is the limit, regardless. However, there are no rules specifying what you mention. In my own games, I'd allow it, so long as you took negative traits as well to keep the overall ratio balanced.


...or paid the excessive amount off with Karma, according to normal rules for buying Qualities.

There were rules in 3rd Edition, in Year of the Comet, on how to handle in-game SURGE - those could be useful to you, if you plan on using it.
Glyph
There are rule in SR4 for SURGE after game play starts (the Dormant Metagenetics quality, pg. 74 of Runner's Companion).

For individual qualities, I would use the normal rules for buying qualities after game play starts, although the character would have to be a metavariant or changeling for the GM to even consider letting the player purchase them.

They already have rules for buying "extra" positive or negative qualities at character creation. I would use those, rather than keeping the ratio for the SURGE qualities. Getting 30 points in positive qualities for 15 points (with 15 points of negative qualities) is already a great deal. Extending that up to, say, 70 points of postitive SURGE qualities at the expense of 35 points of negative ones, would be too potentially unbalancing, in my opinion. By the base rules, by getting SURGE III and spending your remaining positive and negative quality points, you can have 50 positive and 50 negative points of SURGE qualities - that should be enough for anyone!
Falconer
You're right on the former... don't know why I read it that way... guess I just confused metavariant for metatype.
Even another reason to hate metavariants (which are merely supposed to be local adaptations, not surged in their own right!).... I see no good reason why something like a ogre would be able to take things like this for free while an orc wouldn't. Good reason to keep surged/metavariants banned... or only allow metavariants through the surged quality with careful oversight. (at least then fomori would actually have to PAY for their arcane arrestor, etc)


But on the latter you have it wrong. Genetic optimization only raises the natural max. It doesn't raise the minimum (which is where the attribute point comes from). One could argue, that since it raises the minimum and not the attribute the quality if taken after play starts only raises the natural max as well (assuming the attribute isn't at the natural min).


The reason why this is problematic is that it's an attribute point which doesn't need to be paid for out of the half BP cap. So it's quite possible to go orc (or hobgoblin)... laugh at all the freebie attribute points you get. Write up a fluffy backstory where you goblinize as an angsty problem ridden teen. Then claim you can ignore the short lifespan as well!.

Net result... character spends spends 10 for increased attribute... and 10 for the attribute itself out of his qualities BP.

Whereas a human only has 21 stat raises for 200BP (+1 edge)... an ogre can do 25 for 240BP or 26 for 260BP (if he gets 1 or 2 metagenic enhancements). And since attributes so badly trump skills... you see where that goes. Also nothing stopping genetic optimization and the metaquality from stacking together for say +2 to agility and/or reaction.

Street sam with 7/11 agility AND 7/11 reaction right out of chargen... possible. (MbW2, toner4).
Glyph
Correct, genetic optimization doesn't give you a point - I was comparing it to Exceptional Attribute, which also doesn't give you a point. But genetic optimization is cheaper than Exceptional Attribute, whether you get it with the Genetic Heritage quality or buy it with resources.

Metavariants getting SURGE qualities without needing SURGE doesn't bother me that much, as any character getting those qualities will get SURGE I-III (for the package deal) anyways. You can make potent changelings with metavariants, though, because they already have some SURGE qualities (like fomori, which have Arcane Arrester and Metagenetic Improvement: Body).

Personally, I would prefer that Exceptional Attribute and Metagenetic Improvement were a single, non-stacking quality, rather than having two nearly-identical qualities, of identical cost, where one is blatantly superior to the other. I don't normally mind the "natural" one being pricier and less effective. But unlike magic and augmentation, which the rules encourage by design, I don't want things geared towards where everyone is compelled to either be a changeling, or fall behind. Changelings should be more of a colorful niche, and less of a powergaming must-have.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 2 2012, 01:53 PM) *
metagenic qualties are available to ANY meta, or any human with the changeling quality. So anyone who takes ANY meta is free to take metagenic qualtities at no additional cost without surging and without suffering the automatic distinctive style drawback that comes with all the advanced character options in the book.


Read again. Metavariant and Metatype are NOT the same. Metavariants still get hit with distinctive style.


Also, for what its worth, we had an Adept with Latent Surge in my game recently. She has a rather large fear of mana spikes and high concentrations of magic(like big rituals).

I think the GM makes her roll to mutate MORE if there are any other big mana spike events that she's been present in. So far, she's been lucky.
Falconer
Bit late to the party there Udoshi... didn't notice that I had already recanted and admitted my mistake?

I'm more than happy to engage in a good debate. Half the fun is the argumentation... but I'll be the first to admit when I get something wrong.

Please read the thread first before replying...
Udoshi
No way, man. I read the first half, then chip in with my part.

Just kidding. I'll look more carefully next time.
Fatum
I'd only allow it as a part of some overarching concept, not as the usual "I want this really optimized metaquality".
Machiavelli
I was asking because i am about to start with a char. based on the ancient greek mystical creature called "Medusa" (you know, one of the gorgons). Because the GM doesnīt allow Surge AND Metavariants at the same time, i couldnīt take a Dryad for this concept. Because the "Glamour"-power would fit perfectly for this character, i really have to decide how to go on. Up to know i have a modified "Thagomizer" (the snakes on her head, used for attack) and "Natural Venom" spit or injected by the snakes. Enough for the start, but i definitely need more for rounding the char. up. Fangs, Claws, maybe dermal alteration or a corresponding negative surge-quality would be on my list for the nearer future. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely needed to become a real medusa.
Paul
I'd likely allow the player in question to make his or her case as to why this is a good story to tell; why it would or wouldn't break the game-and how much fun that'd be for everyone else; and then we'd get down to assigning costs. It'd cost you karma, but since that's karma you're not spending on something else-like skills, attributes, or what not.
Jhaiisiin
As a GM, I'd allow the gorgon concept from chargen, as that's exactly what Class III surge is intended for.

If we needed more surging during play, then when your character next encountered a mana warp area, those genes could manifest. If for instance you're Class I right now, the warp could push you to Class III, which means you'd need to have the karma to pay for the increase in the quality (10bp difference between Class I and III)
Yerameyahu
I dunno what Glamour has to do with something literally the opposite of that, but (as everyone said) you can just take a metavariant *and* extra 'surge' (metagenetic) qualities; no SURGE required. … Did Medusa ever attack with the hair-snakes, venomous or otherwise? Sounds more like a Naga with arms.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jan 3 2012, 09:39 AM) *
I was asking because i am about to start with a char. based on the ancient greek mystical creature called "Medusa" (you know, one of the gorgons). Because the GM doesnīt allow Surge AND Metavariants at the same time, i couldnīt take a Dryad for this concept. Because the "Glamour"-power would fit perfectly for this character, i really have to decide how to go on. Up to know i have a modified "Thagomizer" (the snakes on her head, used for attack) and "Natural Venom" spit or injected by the snakes. Enough for the start, but i definitely need more for rounding the char. up. Fangs, Claws, maybe dermal alteration or a corresponding negative surge-quality would be on my list for the nearer future. Nothing game-breaking, but definitely needed to become a real medusa.



Wait.
Wait wait wait.
Didn't you have a topic about this already?
I could have sworn I already advised someone on their options in making a gorgon-snake-medusa-like woman.

And yeah. Naga with arms is probably your best bet. Also, you probably want re-fluffed Fangs instead of a Thagomizer for your snake hair. Exotic Weapon Skills suck - fangs use unarmed, and are cheaper.
Machiavelli
Yes, i already had a topic about the creation of such a character, but the Naga-with-arms option was a little bit too odd for me. A Medusa should look human with exception of some snake-features, not like a snake with human features. ^^ Besides, playing a sapient critter would be even more overpaced than a metavariant with surge, so i think i would already know the statement of my GM. Even if he would allow me this variant, i know that he would find ways to make my life as hard as possible (can Nagas talk?).

I know that exotic weapon skills basically suck, but the tagomizer grants reach+1, damage+2 (and some dice for balance tests)....in addition with the poison a quite good melee-attack. I simply drop close-combat and take exotic-weapon instead. Acc. to the greek legends, medusa was beautiful as a human and had been cursed to become an ugly monster. So glamour would be a great thing to draw victims in reach of the snake-hair. Some kind of hypnotizing-look like the snake from the jungle-book.^^

Some things from my wish list "could" be solved by the physical manifestation of adept-powers. Scaly hide through mystic armor, claws and fangs by deathtouch, snake-eyes with enhanced senses (e.g. infared) etc. But glamour and further and more extreme mutations (snake-tail instead of legs, multiple arms, fins etc.) cannot be done like that. So this question became valid before i am going to start to discuss with the GM about this. wink.gif

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yes, A Naga can talk... smile.gif
Paul
By the by, I'd likely let a player do this-because at the table I play the other players or the fixer would probably either outright kill a character like this, or sell him or her for a tidy sum to people who cut people like this open. I'm vaguely curious what the rest of this group looks like.
Machiavelli
I am the only freak. ^^ This char. has the "hunted" flaw, i think that exactly covers your considerations.
Fatum
QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 4 2012, 07:03 PM) *
By the by, I'd likely let a player do this-because at the table I play the other players or the fixer would probably either outright kill a character like this, or sell him or her for a tidy sum to people who cut people like this open.
Uh, since when are SURGE victims even vaguely interesting to anyone? Much less interesting enough to pay noticeable sums for the right to cut them open?
Machiavelli
IIRC the surge-rate especially in bigger towns is quite high. I might be wrong, but i remember ever 10 out of 100 had been influenced to some degree by surge. So as long as you are not a SURGE III-victim (and even they can be quite unsuspicious) nobody cares about you. There are extra clubs where the surgelings meet and especially the catlikes are quite "famous" if i read the in-game article about this cat-pornstar correct. ^^ Besides, there is medusa-hair as cyberware, you could still say it is the new version. Experimental bioware e.g. In this case you are state-of-the-art. ^^
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
A Medusa should look human with exception of some snake-features, not like a snake with human features.
Doesn't sound like Medusa to me.
Machiavelli
Hmmm...depends on your sources:

Medusa Pin Up

Charismatic Medusa

I want this char. be playable, so this is basically what i want to reach. It can become more extreme in the future (i have a quite good background story for her) but if she is too freaky, the GM wouldnīt approve.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* I just think if all you want is snake hair, on an otherwise fully *pretty* chick, that seems weak. It's medusa-inspired at best. It doesn't have to be the Clash of the Titans naga-medusa, no. But it helps to actually commit to something besides bonuses. The stats for your 'modified thagomizer' snake hair are truly absurd, unless it's actually a boa constrictor attached to her head (seriously, reach and extra damage from *hair*?). It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, it's just that it sounds a little contradictory and not a lot related to a 'terrifying' female with snake hair, snake skin, snake fangs, turns people to stone with a look, etc. Maybe a pretty face, but also the rest. At least the claws sound right. smile.gif
Machiavelli
This is what i wanted to cover with additional surge-changings.

I now have:

Thagomizer (Snake Hair)
Natural Poison (Ekyelebenle Venom)

Extravagant Eyes (Snake-Eyes)
Scales

What i want:

Fangs
Claws
Frog tongue (Snake tongue)
Maybe something for the snake-tail, not sure how to handle it.

Turning people into stone will be done with the "petrify"-spell. So i am basically done.

Edit: i will use "Mood Hair" instead of Scales for the beginning. So the scales will come a little bit later.
NiL_FisK_Urd
a "Vestigial tail" negative quality could serve as the snake tail. Also, "Frog tongue" does way more than a snake tongue would do. "Thermal Sensitivity" would be a great addon for a snake changeling, or "Striking Skin Pigmentation" for colored skin (like a green mamba or such)
Machiavelli
Striking Skin pigmentation would be great, but i think it is already included into the scales-flaw. These are already colored and i also think that you cannot combine several skin-modifications.

Frog tongue is only interesting for me, because it gives me a long tongue. But i would make it a negative quality instead but with the same number of points.

Vestigal tail is useless and looks stupid. I would rather take another tagomizer or discuss with the GM about a snake-tail that completely replaces the legs, as long as it makes the char. not absolutely useless.

Granite shell could imply the armored skin as well. Just modify it to look different. This is what i was thinking about for the future.
Yerameyahu
But if it replaces the legs… argh. smile.gif
Machiavelli
Hmmm....at least the movment rate shouldnīt be much decreased. According to the ones of other awakened snakes, i should at least be as quick as a dwarf:

Naga 5/20
Dog asp 10/20
Death rattle 10/30
Ekyelebenles 10/20
Snow snake 3/10
Hoop snake 3/20
Mimic snake 8/15

Snakes excel at climbing....still playable....but a BIT obvious. ^^
Yerameyahu
Is that special venom vastly better? If so, it seems unfair to cherry-pick it from the special unique critter it's named after. smile.gif
Machiavelli
With natural venom you can choose from all natural venoms. I just wanted to stay in the role and therefore took a snake venom. Ekyelebenle Venom is great, but not the best.

QUOTE
Ekyelebenle Venom
Vector: Contact
Speed: 1 Combat Turn
Penetration: 0
Power: 8
Effect: Physical Damage, Blindness (see below)
This potent venom is spit at victims of the ekyelebenle.
If the Power of the toxin after the Toxin
Resistance Test exceeds the target’s Body, the target
will be blinded and unable to see for 1 hour. If the
target glitches on the resistance test, this blinding
is permanent.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Tetradotoxin is (imho) the most powerful (natural) toxin in the game - it is in "Parazoology".

Vector: Injection/Ingestion
Speed: Immediate (Injection) / 1 minute (ingestion)
Penetration: 0
Power: 12
Effect: Physical Damage
Yerameyahu
That would certainly be silly, though *blinding* people isn't too shabby. Anyway, I just had this vague memory of that being a paracritter, which seems ridiculous to steal.
Machiavelli
This one is also quite good:

QUOTE
BUNYIP VENOM
Vector: Contact, Injection
Speed: 10 minutes
Penetration: 1
Power: 12
Effect: When in contact with skin or in the bloodstream, the subject becomes moderately allergic
to sunlight. This is cumulative with an existing photosensitivity. It also reduces the effectiveness
of modern medicine, reducing the dice pool of the medical test by the damage level of the poison.


But they are no snake venoms. Sometimes even i donīt care about powergaming. ^^

@Yerameyahu
The Ekyelebenle is also an awakened critter i am stealing the poison from.
NiL_FisK_Urd
The bunyip thing is not that good, because it needs 10 minutes to work. There is another one in parazoology with contact, immediate, p9 with paralyzes the target.
Yerameyahu
That was what I was saying, Machiavelli. smile.gif You're stealing from an *Awakened* (as far as I'm concerned, != natural) critter, and that venom is their signature trick. You *are* powergaming, just maybe not as much as humanly possible. nyahnyah.gif
Machiavelli
If there is more to achieve, it ainīt powergaming. It is called optimizing ^^
Machiavelli
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Jan 5 2012, 05:01 PM) *
The bunyip thing is not that good, because it needs 10 minutes to work. There is another one in parazoology with contact, immediate, p9 with paralyzes the target.

I donīt have a problem with quoting. wink.gif Please give me the informations. ^^
Yerameyahu
Do what you want and call it what you want. smile.gif I was just saying, it all sounds more like twinkery than actually building a medusa concept, to me (I especially liked, 'I'd use SURGEd Dryad but the GM said no'). It's not at my table, I don't care.
Machiavelli
What would you propose instead to create a "real" Medusa?
Yerameyahu
I think we already covered it: definitely should have snake hair (definitely *not* a Thagomizer of any kind); pretty face optional (better without, to my taste); fangs suggested; *real* snake venom on the *snakes* acceptable; snake skin strongly suggested; naga-body optional (makes it more a critter); claws optional. I agree that it depends on how much of 'animal' and/or 'monster' you're going for. I just particularly think that a Reach+1, DV+2, blinding/paralytic foreign awakened venom *human* who's also pretty and charismatic seems a bit much.
Machiavelli
I understand your point and agree to some point. I will go for more physical changings in the future, but for game-start i think this is enough. I want her look to be a social and psychological problem for her, always fearing that the mutation will go on until she really equals the monster from mythology which is a real problem for a beautiful young woman. Also i planned some magical circle from greece hunting her, for the supposed ability of her blood to bring back the dead. So packing out the snakes too often, causing a lot of attention, wouldnīt be a good solution for her. And IF somebody is coming to close, she should have the ability to protect herself. The thagomizer is only for close combat, how often does this happen? In our games, most of the combat is ranged. I think i am not overpacing here.
Yerameyahu
*shrug* It's not in comparison to a gun, it's in comparison to its field. A Thagomizer is an actual biological club, bigger and tougher than a man's arm (which is *why* it gets reach and damage); hair snakes simply aren't like that. smile.gif For the venom, it's a similar mis-fit: Medusa didn't blind (I could see paralyze, but 'turn to stone' is pretty distinct even from that), and this is the special trick of a totally different magical beast. Normal snake venoms are available, and they're not too shabby either.

Like I said, I'm only pointing out inconsistencies that presented themselves to me. Do what's fun for you guys. smile.gif
Machiavelli
No no, i really appreciate all these comments, because they help me to make this char. more "realistic". You are right with the blinding, i will check out for something else. Maybe i can switch the blindness-effect to paralyzing or i drop it at all and stay with the petrify-spell. You saw the picture of the medusa with the boa-constrictur attached to her head, which was basically the inspirations for this char. So i can live with the tagomizer advantages. ^^ But thank you anyway.
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