I'll steal a signature someone on rpg.net had once - "Fuck you Phillip K. Dick, we're sticking wires in our brains!"

I get it's not your thing, and considering I agree with you on other stuff (your recent comments on HMHVV positive folks, for instance) I guess I can let that one slide


I shorthanded! I'm sorry! Yes, Tehana left it up on the computer, I read about it through her. God, it's like being at work all over again

I think Cheops nicely summarized the situation with SR3.

I've tried SR4. I didn't like it. I don't like the art, the mechanics, the setting, or the metaploit (with a few exceptions in all cases), so I don't play it. I also don't introduce new players to it.

When I play SR3, all of our issues have basically been hashed out. I, at least until recently, participated in SR3R, but that's been kicked off of DSF, so if you don't look for it, you won't see it. But that's what my players and I discuss.

I really can't comment on the SR3/SR4 numbers. I imagine SR4 has more players, but I also imagine if the line were to suddenly stop producing, those SR4 numbers will drop to be comparable to, or below SR3. I think SR3 has a staying power that just isn't there yet with SR4 (of course, I'm also extremely biased).

As for transhumanism ... I'd love to play in a Diamond Age setting. But I'll also want to play in a Cyberpunk setting. Not saying a transhuman Shadowrun would be bad, but when I go to Shadowrun, transhumanism won't be what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately, I do think the transhumanism bit is an indicator that Shadowrun as a line may be losing its direction. Cyberpunk is, well, punk. The argument has been made that 'punk is dead' and 'cyberpunk is dead', and to a degree, I can believe it. When I play SR, I play an offshoot of 1989, not an offshoot of 2012. When I read SR stuff now, I get a more generic 'action/adventure' feel than I did before. Maybe transhumanism is the philosophy that will give SR back its spark. I don't know. But as it is, I don't feel anything that makes me say 'wow, this is the thing I am willing to fight for'.

It's sad the way things went with him.

I dunno. Speaking as someone that was only introduced to Shadowrun with 4th ed, it managed to pull me in and make me a devoted fan enough that I tried to a run a game five years ago--first game ever GMed, was a disaster; shifted to GMing other games, got enough experience in GMing doing that to learn what to do--and now I'm back running SR4, and I've gotten four players interested enough in the setting that after just two and a half months of sessions, they're willing to commit to a campaign extending beyond the current school year--and all of those players were born in the 90s. So there's clearly something that 4th Ed is doing right.

re: Bobby Derie

It is, and it was then, too. And I'm upset about some of the things I said, and I regret that Bobby now seems to lump me in with "the enemy," but I can't help that. I did what I did, and I said what I said, and it's how things are. Wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

On the transhumanism front, and witha "marching the tech forward and matching real life"...

The problem is Shadowrun starts falling apart the more of this you do. The internet is FREEDOM. Technology, readily available technology adn the ability to transform yourself is FREEDOM. And freedom is very much NOT what Shadowrun is about. That's what makes runners stand out, is that they've shucked the social and societal bonds because they want to be free.

It also starts seriously blurring the lines between the "1%" and the "99%" to borrow a modern concept. I've long argued taht Shadowrun is a classic Cyberpunk style game. Shifting it to a more modern transhumanist world works,a nd works very easily, but in doing so the entire nature and tone of the game shifts as well. And that's a problem. It's akin to an Old West game transitioning into the Roaring 20s. Logically, it has to progress to taht point. But once you do, the game and the flavor changes drastically, and you're no longer playing the same game.

I have no problem with the transhumanist genre, and there are several transhumanist games out there already. Eclipse Phase being the best of the lot by far. i'm with Patrick (and a lot of fans I talked with at Origins and Gen Con) when i say I don't really like Shadowrun sliding into that genre. It's not the game I signed on for.

(Now, for both myself and I think I can speak for Patrick, this is simply our opinions. If the powers that be decide we're going more transhumanist, then we are. It's just not what I personally have an interest in seeing SR become, because then it's no longer Shadowrun.)

Bull

Only if we take the contract to do the writing. One glorious benefit to freelancing is that we aren't obligated to tackle a project if it doesn't interest us. If an upcoming project was gonna be SHADOWRUN: NINTH EDITION: FUCK YOU CYBERPUNK, YAY TRANSHUMANISM, no amount of you pandering to my Urban Brawl, Ancients, or Tir fanaticism would get me to pitch for a chapter and request a contract, y'know?

And that's one strength we have, collectively, as the simultaneously writers and fans of a system. If absolutely none of us will touch a project with a ten foot pole, that project just won't get made, because there would be no one to write it. So for as long as some folks are still around and putting their names on books, you can kind of count on Shadowrun's flavor trying to stay...well...Shadowrun.

And fans have chairs, dice bags, and duct tape that we can bring to conventions.

And I'm not arguing for sleeves, or meshnets, or uplifted dolphins, or anything else that people seem to equate to YAY TRANSHUMANISM

Augmentation has always been about being better than you were before, and that element's been in there since 1e. But tech improves; to say that it just stays in one spot because of weird misplaced fears of being "TRANSHUMANIST!" is just kind of...silly and reactionist and could actively harm the fandom down the line.

And while the Internet may lead to freedom, it's still a freedom you have to fight for. Look at the SOPA act right now in Congress. Look at the fact that the Pirate Bay is taking torrents off of their sites, and the national firewalls that Australia and China have up restricting what information people can and can't see. The fight for that information would be especially more important in Shadowrun, where megacorps run everything and who knows WTF GOD is up to.

Let me put it this way - Tehana follows a photojournalist group on Tumblr, and they show wars and revolutions going on right now, at this very moment. How important and inspirational is it to be able to see that, and the actual people involved (y'know, the civilians and the people who can't / won't fight) and understand the humanity behind revolution? It's an important tool that everyone in power would love to lock down. That's Shadowrun right there.

Wait I'm sorry are uplifted dolphins now somehow NOT cyberpunk?



Oh, I fully agree but I think that makes me a minority among the freelancers. Of course I also think it's possible the very issue of what exactly we're talking about is being misunderstood by all sides, not least of all by me.

The Internet gives freedom. The Matrix isn't the Internet. The Matrix is the "Internet, brought to you by the Corporate Court".

Not too sure what the big deal about transhumanism is, personally. Hell, my Father got to live to see a day when he'd be a cyborg! For someone who's read Sci-Fi since he was 7, it fills me with joy to know he got to live to see the day, and all other things that he's seen.

When Grandpa was born, mankind was barely able to fly. Dad saw people walking on the moon (Don't start that fight here and now!). I get to see humanity piss away the stars, but made a world so small that friendships know no borders.

Technology marches on indeed.

He's a cybernetic dolphin, but your point is valid.

He's uplifted by cyberware. : P

(Actually poor Jones isn't very uplifted at all, but I think my point still stands.)

I don't think anyone wants to admit to that movie existing, much less that they've seen it. I have, and it was awesobad.


Honestly, I kind of agree. Like I said, I'm not asking for cybernetic dolphins. I'm just saying, keep the tech angle cohesive with the technology spectrum that Shadowrun has always had, and we'll be fine. But I guess that's not what we're arguing about...?

Oh God, did I accidentally link to the movie?



Oh, no, phew, thank gosh, I didn't. : )

(Seriously, it is pretty bad, but sadly it also has the distinction of "only live-action movie to feature a monofilament whip" that I'm aware of.)

Bull actually touched on most of my feelings here, but just to add something to it....

Transhumanism, to me, implies that there's some choice. You WANT to take yourself beyond the flesh, you WANT to be more than human. And it also implies that you have the freedom to do so, and the werewithal.

And that's not SR to me.

Augmentation has been there from the get-go, it's true...but until SR4, it was a negative thing. You initially got augmented, not because you wanted to, but because you had to. You signed a contract, you made a deal...something happened, and you found yourself with metal instead of flesh. "Congratulations, sergeant. Your valiant effort saved your unit...but you lost both your arms. You're getting a medal, and five years added to your contract to pay for those new cyberarms you got."

You get the chrome, like it or not...and then you kinda become dependent upon it, and you have to keep upgrading or die. You didn't WANT to become a robot with a human brain, it just kinda fuckin' happened, and that's where the nightmare starts. It's a never-ending cycle.

No one in their right mind WANTS this shit to start with.

That's my take on it, anyway. I know there's tons of incidents in the canon that contradict me on that, but I'm adding elements the other way. I've got a story coming out, hopefully by the end of the month, called "Another Rainy Night," Without giving anything away, I can say that there are two cybered characters in the story...and neither one of them got it of their own volition. Their corps made the decision for them, and could have made some really dickish punitive moves had they declined. But one of those characters did not wake up one day and say, "You know, I think I'll go in and have them lop off my right leg so I can get some more metal in my body." No, she got her ass shot up on the job, and the corp in question (in this case, Knight Errant) looked at the contract she'd signed, and then went all RoboCop on her while she's in surgery and said, "It's more cost-effective to lose the leg, and she gave consent...so lose the leg."

And they both got their contracts extended because of their augmentations, and in one of their cases for the upgrades to the chrome they extended her contract for in the first place...and she's still there, twenty-one years and change later.

No one sane does this shit because they WANT to do it. And that, to me, is the difference between cyberpunk and transhumanism. And the latter doesn't belong in SR, IMHO.

Am I the only one that *likes* the movie?

I mean, it has Lori "Tank Girl" Petty in it (For, like, a third of a second, but) ... that's gotta be worth something, right?

And Patrick makes me giddy. Mmm.

Now, there are some people who *are* technophiles, who *do* go in and get more chrome (Or gills, or whatever) because they want to push what human is, but, by and large? You get it because you have to. Yeah, you can *do* your job on a tortise terminal instead of getting a datajack and going in 'right', but your performance review keep flagging your behavior and your relative slowness. Social pressure is everywhere around you and the payment plan is generous ... why *wouldn't* you let a guy take a drill to your temple and attach wires to your *brain*, right?

Datapushers are there, and cyber-eyes/ears are there for those whith defects ... more than that, you're looking at people getting replacement parts. Or, worse, in an arms race ... you only have last year's wires? That new guy that wants your spot has THIS year's. They're faster than you, and in a gunfight, speed kills. So, do you lag behind teh SOTA or do you dip into your bucket of favors and see about getting wires better than HIS?

But every time you do, you feel your humanity slipping further and further away...

I like this kind of flavor too, but honestly it's largely incompatible with the experience of the average player/PC. The average player/PC is getting MOAR CYBER because they want to be MORE AWESOME. And the important thing is that's just as true in SR1, SR2, and SR3 as it is in SR4.

The "unwanted" cyberjunk flavor is cool, but it's very much a case of Cursed with Awesome.

Transhumanism as a philosophy isn't incompatible with classic Gibsonesque dystopian cyberpunk, only optimistic/utopian transhumanism is. I'd argue that transhumanism was one of the basic tenets of cyberpunk literature from day one, right up there with "in the future everything sucks". The cool thing about Shadowrun is that we have mechanics like essence which reinforce the fact that turning yourself into a cyborg isn't all sunshine and roses.

I'm so proud of myself for not clicking that link....

And if it's not the flavor they're experiencing, then they are (in my not-so-humble opinion) doing something wrong. (I can see a lot of people I know looking at me with their heads about to explode like the dude in Scanners. Yes, I like my game with a ray of hope. Doesn't mean I don't know how to go all dark and shit.)

Feeling socially or culturally obligated to turn yourself into a cyborg or needing to do so to put food on the table (for instance if you're a Shadowrunner or a professional athlete who happens to be non-Awakened) is no less grimdark, in my opinion. And honestly, in my opinion, there's something a bit grimdark about the idea of someone so detached from their basic humanity that they want to put "all the cyberware in them" just for fun/just to be better. I mean most of my friends have laundry lists of cyberware from Shadowrun that they'd put in them in a second if it really existed. Personally speaking, I'm not sure I'd go through with that. I'm not sure I would want to really know what 2.8 Essence feels like.

Transhumanism isn't incompatible with dystopia, in fact in its most common science fiction sense transhumanism is innately kind of dark and creepy. The future is scary.

This has actually been out for a few months now. I did a little dance the day I discovered it.

~J

Is it bad that i can spot a tvtropes link just from the link text, without mouse over hovering to see where it leads? <.<

And yet, poor is cool.


I'd be happy with another massive extinction event. That's the only way I can see to move things back to cyberpunk.

Speaking only for myself -- moreso than normal, at any rate -- I "keep things cyberpunk" by ignoring and/or glossing over the stuff I don't like. If parts of a setting book feel too much like an iCity, all soft lines and clean plastic and high tech? I write about a different part of that city, where joygirls still have to work in the meat, the gutters are full of beetleheads, nanotech is the stuff they hear about on pirated tridshows instead of the stuff they pick up at the neighborhood street doc's, and the ghouls still want to splash in your blood for kicks instead of lobbying for the right to vote.

Sometimes it's all about where you choose to focus, not when.

There's a lot more to my comments, as a note. I'm simplifying because i don't have the time nor, honestly, the inclination to debate my points yet again. So don't take my comment as all inclusive.

I will add, however, that PCs are the exception to any and every rule. they're functionally insane. What they want and do, and what the rest of the world wants and does are two vastly different things, because the players know the numbers and the rules behind the roleplay. it's nearly impossible to separate the two.

*shrug*

Bull

The PCs also shoot people in the face for money, something most NPCs don't do.

What Shadowrun have you been playing?

~J

None. Haven't you been paying attention to my complaining?

Wow, so, ITT I discover I play a vastly different game then most folks, and have apparently been reading different books than everyone else since 2e...

How so?

And this is a problem with most of the industry and especially obsolete games like Shadowrun.

Annecdotally I know a lot of people who play TTRPGs but not many of them are willing to be GM. They see and understand how hard and how much work it is to be a GM and as a hobby activity it is just not worth the hassle. Less GMs make it hard for people to find games to play and less games mean less new players. Shadowrun has a great backstory and metaplot and is truely one of the gems available on the market. But it is incredibly difficult to run a game that emulates that amazing setting.

This is where my obsolesence comment comes in. Working with the rules of Shadowrun feels as if I have been stuck in a time loop since the 1990's. Each edition has made incremental improvements over the one that came before but the rules are more akin to just slapping additional wings onto a crumbling old building. The core is rickety and has an uneven foundation but slap some new paint on it and call it new. As a result many of the innovations in gaming over the past 2 decades have been missed all for the sake of some sacred cows. D&D4e tried to make running the game easier in an attempt to relieve the burden on the GM (whether it is a good game or it achieved that is debatable), Fate/Warhammer 3rd/other systems use special dice to help the game tell part of the story, numerous games use a drama point/plot point system better than SR's legacy Karma/Edge system, and many independent games out there incorporate all sorts of interesting things with cooperative storytelling. Improving the system to make it as easy as possible for new GMs to run a game is the single best thing SR could do to increase its player base.

Don't get me wrong -- I love Shadowrun. But it is largely running on nostalgia. Not many people would be as persistent as Bibliophile here for an optional hobby activity. You need to be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater (D&D4) but after 20 years that bathwater is looking pretty muddy.

Well, let's see. Over the last five years, I have played in the following:
Shadowrun, 4th Edition
D&D 3.5, variety of settings, including several homebrew settings, plus Monte Cook's Ptolus
oWoD Vampire (got roped into it by gaming group in the early days; it was that or nothing)
nWoD: Changeling
Call Of Cthulhu
Paranoia

And have GM'd the following:
Shadowrun, 4th Ed.
D&D 3.5
nWoD: Mage and Geist (combined setting, modern London)
The Dresden Files RPG (FATE System married to the Dresden Files setting)
Diaspora (Hard scifi FATE)
Tethys: The Ten Thousand Coasts (personal homebrew maritime high fantasy setting done with FATE)

And have extensively looked at, made notes for, or desire to play:
Eclipse Phase
CthulhuTech
Deadlands
Mutants And Masterminds
Gamma World
Star Wars
Spirit Of The Century
D&D 4e (mostly as an intro=level game for some of the students I tutor)

Now, out of all of that, do you know why SR4 is one of my favorites, if not my absolute favorite setting and setting, that I was not only willing to return to GMing it after five years and a really bad experience as a player?

Several factors: first, I have a personal philosophical issue with Level Advancement Systems, especially Level And Class advancement systems, most especially the way that they're often played. To whit, *DING!* The idea that you hit some threshold of experience and everything about you improves. So, while I'll play D&D, and enjoy it, there will always be the edge of discomfort with the "Woot! Hit a new level!" conceit of the system. Thus, I'll always be more comfortable with Point Expenditure systems of advancement.

FATE is a phenomenal system for storytelling, as it codifies the elements of stories--the Aspects that drive the plot are only story elements because they drive the plot--as well as having a solid mechanic that allows for PC control of said plot, as well as incentivising actual bad things and complications for the PCs. However, while being very easy to play, I find the system lacks nuance: when everything ultimately boils down to a normalized bell curve from -4 to +4, and an aspect can be anything from MYSTERIOUS AURA OF MENACE to a location aspect like DEEP FRYER (in a kitchen, perhaps), you can loose alot of nuance, and, while I adore The Dresden Files and love the setting and story, getting a deeper level 0f nuance is difficult in that system.

WoD has nuance, but the conceit of the setting is an utterly craptacular world, in its own way worse than Shadowrun (depending on the GM, I suppose, but especially oWoD), but there are sufficient options and degree of finesse inherent in the system to allow for a great deal of nuance.

And that leads me to Shadowrun: there are enough options in Shadowrun that creating a unique character is ultimately quite doable, and allows for a great deal of, well, nuance in that creation. And, unlike nWoD, which is a superior product to its predecessor, there is an explicit and engaging world, already made and fleshed out and ready for you, a unique setting, with a distinctive flavor that is married to that nuanced system.

And that's why Shadowrun is my favorite, over and above all of these other games that I have tried and, yes, enjoyed: because it offers something that no other game does, that something being an incredible array of choices and options, married to a strong, rich setting that has no peer out there in its depth, history, array of possible play options and scope. I wanna run a horror-genre game? Well, there's CoC, or CthulhuTech... or I could run a bug hive campaign in Shadowrun. I wanna play a guy that's Cursed With Awesome? nWoD is a possibility, but designing a setting is a pain... or, I could run a changeling, or an Awakened with the Cursed quality, or a newly Awakened Adept from a magephobic family... I want deep and horrible conspiracies that will shake my very worldview and cause me to question everything I thought about history and the world? CoC... but actually having a character, y'know, survive past the first session can be a nice thing, too. And if a dragon running a corporation isn't enough for that particular desire, I'm not thinking hard enough--and there's always the option of master shedim, too. And so forth.

tl,dr version: Shadowrun offers possibilities and combinations of possibilities that I can't get from other systems, and has them all in one convenient place and ruleset, and that's why it's my favorite.

Deadlands is good for choices as well, with some randomness thrown in for those that don't like Points Based Systems.

Shadowrun allows you to build something that isn't nerfed by bad card draws. (Literally, all four deuces, and both jokers in on draw! I let the player redraw.).

I'd love to play both, as I've only GMed them for the most part.

I vote this the most cruel post of 2012! (so far, but likely to go unsurpassed for awhile)

Poor guy ^^

Okay... I'll bite.

I personally dislike the sudden shift into the whole "Games that make the Game easier for the GM" because ultimately you end up with RPG's that feel like Boardgames but ultimately don't do as well as the Boardgames. Fantasy Flight ahve some HUGE liscenses and are currently doing really well in the markets. Their best selling RPG's are the Warhammer 40K franchised ones and despite the sloppy editing and copy pasting in the core books the stuff they've done is pretty good and their GM basis is the one most of us have been playing with for decades. The other stuff they do are the boardgames like Descent, War of Westeros and so forth and they are all high quality product. A lot of the New Age RPG's with the easier time for GM's all too often feel like they are a game of Descent only not actually as Good as Descent.

Part of the attraction of the RPG hobby has always been the freedom within the game to do what you want with it.
I'm 30 and have the pleasure of running a tuesday night game for one of my boss's sons and his friends form highschool (this is the Uk so thats a group of aged 15 average). We've done West End Games D6 Starwars, we've done a VERY long on off campaign of Werewolf the Apocalypse, we've done DnD 3.5, a Call of Cthulhu Adventure (that they want to return to in October) and three weeks ago I introduced them to Shadowrun.

Most of this group started playing about 18months ago, two only about a year ago.

They all know where the FLGS is now and shop their for bits and pieces.

Most of them own EBooks of the games we have played.

I have given them the option of DnD 4th edition or SR4 when I was looking at maybe doing somethin new for everyone.

They said no, they preferred my collection of games written in the 90's. (Or Hackmaster Basic infact)

Two of them have even written up some of their own game worlds and systems to go with them (remember when we ALL used to do that when we were at school?) and they have a steady alternating campaign on a Monday night (I've witnessed a session and it looked fun) which they play without any old schooler around (my brother and one of my oldschool Wednesday night group also play on Tuesday). They've had the option to pick up published stuff at the FLGS and none of it appealed.

Now this is a drop in the ocean as far as market analysis goes. But I think it proves people want well thought out settings and realised settings with a decent framework and rules set to play by, but with enough flexibility so the GM can do what he feels he needs to do with it. Spending an evening writing up the adventure and the tinkering with it a couple of hours before tabletime was always a fun part of the Hobby. My regular groups, my irregular groups, my old school group and newbie group, ALL of them still enjoy this part of it all.

I dont think I'm even trying to make a point here, just expressing my views.

Now,while keeping an eye on the net i shall return to refining the Run for Tuesday night and dealing with some of the repercussions the team are going to have for ghosting a quartet of Yari go-gangers (who to be fair had it coming for threatening the Ork street same with the wires and no reflex trigger...but hey)

Dolphins are a really good example of overlap. I think Bull hit the nail on the head about freedom. Transhumanism philosophy is founded on having a set of fantastic choices you want, while Cyberpunk is being forced into a radical change you don't want (to grossly simplify things). An 'uplifted' dolphin can swim with the stars or be stuck in an algae-encrusted tank after a failed military program. An infomorph can be the freedom to live in a digital utopia or the cold echo of a dead friend. So I'm changing my answer. You could bring in the transhuman tech without disrupting Shadowrun's cyberpunk grittiness ... but it's going to take a LOT of guidance, creativity and skill to pull it off convincingly. If done right, it could be better than the Shadowrun I play. But pulling that off would be a masterpiece.



YOOOOOINK

I will own up to being a little over-dramatic, plus it was late, so...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see the world that Bull and Patrick and you are all pining for reflected in what should be the main source for anyone: the corebooks. Any of them - and I own the 2e, 3e, and 4e/A cores.

Having done a quick scan of both 2e and 3e this morning, the only penalty I see for taking cyberware in the books is an Essence hit and money spent. There are rules for social penalties in the 3e core, but those are prefaced with a note that GMs can apply them when they feel like it. A similar rule exists in Augmentation for 4e/A, in the same section as rules for cyberpsychosis.

I get that the major surgeries and cyber-replacements are pretty much reserved for People You Don't Fsck With, but even in the 2e book they mention that datajacks, cyberlimbs, and the occasional weird bit of non-traditional cyber on the streets of the Sixth World isn't that out of place. Only professionals shove wires into their bodies and move faster than the blink of an eye, we can agree on that.

The major sticking point I'm having is that the way Patrick and Bull are talking, there's always been this GINORMOUS penalty that folks taking cyberware should take, okay, but where are those rules / penalties / social modifiers, aside from aformentioned optional passages I noted above?

I'm just not seeing where 4E GOT RID OF ALL OF THE NEGATIVES TO HAVING CYBERWARE comes from when there's no reflective source in any of the corebooks I have. Maybe it's a reaction to the weird and wild stuff in Augmentation, but that's an optional expansion book that a GM can ban large parts of. Is this similar to the constant blind complaints re: SURGE, and how suddenly the Sixth World is full of catgirls? Dunno, and it confuses me to read parallel feelings from freelancers, where the thought isn't, "we want things to be bright and shiny and sleek!" we're just asking to update the tech curve while keeping with SR's already established verisimilitude.

And if this is the world that the current freelancers and authors and editors want, then why aren't you revising it so that there are harsher penalties for being cybered? That getting cybered is pretty much something you have to do to survive? Stricter rules, harsher social penalties, etc, etc? It's not a game I'd want to play - I've had enough of GRIMDARK, thank you - and I'd likely just continue on doing what I'm doing now, which is not buying CGL products. No biggie.

Let me put it to you this way - aside from Gibson, one of the other big influences to Shadowrun was Ghost in the Shell. A series that mentions on a near constant basis that everyone there is cyber'd up to some degree, and that only the freaks (or the disabled, like Kusanagi was) go for full 'borg conversions. And I'd definitely argue that that world is "punk" and not the slightest bit transhuman. That's a Shadowrun I'm comfortable with, not people turning into walking horrors because they wanted a new set of cyber-eyes or limbs or something.

(I have edited this like, twenty times.)

I doubt it—the movie didn't come out until 1995, and while it would've been possible to read the manga and be inspired early (though it came out in 1989, the same year SR1 did), the writers would've had to read Japanese, as the translation didn't come out until 1995.


If the word you'd chosen had been "gritty", I would've agreed with you, but we're talking about a series about an elite team of military police. Pretty much every issue is spent defending and upholding society—it'd be hard to be less punk if you tried.

~J

It could have been filled with J-Pop as well.

My dislike is more about the general idea of nanotech as the awesome and readily available cureall, with no regard to the impact this should have on the setting.
For example from Spy Games:

Speak Up
The spray-on nanites build up a small acoustic or
imaging device and enough storage for an agent program.
The agent can then broadcast whatever the agent has
been programmed to say (or they can be spontaneously
re-programmed wirelessly should the situation
require it). This can be used to distract guards or as part
of an intimidation ruse. The imaging device can project
two-dimensional images. The nanites can be triggered
wirelessly. Rating of the device is the number of hours
that the nanites last. Using Speak Up allows +1 die to
Intimidation or Infi ltration Tests.

That stuff costs 175 ¥ and has an Availability of 5 -- Nanites can do everything, they are cheaper than a flatscreen (or the equivalent cyber in many cases), and have no side effects worth mentioning. Yet what happens when 100% pure Awesome becomes available to everybody for a pittance? Nothing happens, of course.
Shadowrun right now is like an alternate 18th century where the steam engine and mechanized loom got invented and perfected far more than modern science could do, to a point where everybody can have one at home for barely more than the material costs, but NOTHING happens. No industrialization, no steam-powered airplanes, no nothing.
Either Shadowrun has to become a brave new world, with unobtrusive nano implants (JC Denton style), no more heavy industry, no pollution, and no technological boundaries at all, or nanoware has to be cut down and brought back into the R&D labs, with the occasional prototype system hitting the street. But the way nanotech is handled right now is pure bullshit.

Here's a question: Does it actually matter?
Essence never really made sense to me. It reeks of "Balance-Mechanic" and feels clunky to play out. And i think thats actually it. Essence is just there so people explicitely can't stroll around as a full-body robot with a wetware brain.
IMO Essence should be led into the woods and shot. There are better ways to represent that cybernetics eat your soul.

As a oWoD enthusiast who can't find anything admirable in the nWoD, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this statement. As a PM so we don't derail this thread

There are some parts of Eclipse Phase (that evil transhuman game that it is ) where they delve into it how overuse of nanites can be bad. While nanotechnology and nanite swarms are used on a daily bases, they open up security holes and can be pretty scary if used offensively.
But Shadowrun basically uses nanites as magic and thats something even i don't like. Not at this tech-level.

Essence feels like however much you let it dwell on you.

Dirk wondered how much humanity he had in him due to a single cyberarm, whereas Argent was fine with almost all of his cybernetics (Just another tool to help him survive what he does), he didn't like to talk about his arms, but I read that as more due to the decision than the fact that they were artificial.

It does, however, make me wonder how much Essence my Father lost when he became a Cyborg.

Probably easy enough to calculate. What did he have replaced/installed?

Had a defibrillator installed.

I'll say it one more time, it's just a game, we aren't talking world peace here. It's a role playing game that we play with pizza and friends.

I mean, we're reading books and each of us are going to interpret that world differently. I know I interpret it much different than any other person, my idea of the Sixth World is going to be different than any other person's. It's simply the beast of the matter. Our individual real life worlds are shaped by our experiences just like our fantasy worlds will be. Our individual interests come to light and those issues that don't interest us fall to the back. It's just human nature. We all try to stay as canon as possible, well at least most of us I'd imagine, but there is no possible way to hold to each and every bit of information that has been created. There's just too much information. Holding true to the parts that interest you is all you can do, it's what makes the game fun.

At the very least we can all agree that there's some part of the world that fascinates all of us. Something that we can hold onto that opens up some part of the mind, and that's pretty amazing if you ask me. We're all searching for an escape, a place where we can become someone else, and even if we're playing different games, we're all on the same playground. Just because its not as congruent as one might imagine, it doesn't mean that other person is wrong, it just means they see the world different. I think that's a pretty cool thing personally. I like different perspectives, I think it's probably the healthiest thing in the world for any situation. Seeing something from another point of view opens up the world again, in a way you've never seen before.

Yeah, sorry to get all Mr. Rogers over here but I don't know, it's a game and personally, I like having fun when I play games. One of the reasons I enjoy Dumpshock is reading other's perspective on the game and to argue about the intricacies just seems counter productive for a fanciful world.

World Peace would be easier, I think.

I like the Active Naninium from Corporation...A few of the entertaining possibilities for side effects:

3. Cardio Infestation
The nanites migrate through the bloodstream to the heart of the host. There they alter the organ on a molecular level. If the heart was not organic it is still affected. Roll D10 on the table below. (A new heart costs 1000¢).
1 Heart is being destroyed completely. Host must have a new heart within 24 hours or die.
2-5 Heart is badly damaged, -1 Endurance until a new heart can be fitted.
6-7 Heart is simply changed, it still works but would not look human if examined
8-9 Heart is damaged, user loses 1 permanent HP until the heart is replaced.
10 Heart is improved, user gains +2 permanent HP

9. Fusing
The nanites attempt to fuse other materials with the flesh. Anything left in contact with the body for more than 5 hours will begin to be assimilated into the body including clothes, cybernetics, glasses etc. This state of being lasts for D6 weeks. Clothes etc. have little effect but cybernetics each lose a condition level per 24 hours. Each condition level lost by a cybernetic component results in the random loss of a STAT point as the body buckles under the metamorphosis.



If only they did...magic is restricted to a few percent of the population and is known to have nasty side effects...

GITS influenced 1E SR probably not at all, 2E SR maybe very slightly on the tail end, 3E SR I'm almost certain you can find GITS influences, and 4E SR is obviously influenced by not just GITS (manga and anime) but also GITS SAC (both Gigs). At least, that's my own gut feeling on it.

***



As the author of a shared science fiction universe (and the GM of the game that's been played there for the past six years or so) which is set about a thousand years in the future of Shadowrun where Nanotech STILL can't quite do all of the things it does in SR, I've always found the existence of such amazing nanotech by 2070 very problematic. I just don't think there's any way that's plausibly going to happen (maybe the future will really surprise/horrify me, I don't know). But I've never opposed the existence of nanotech in Shadowrun on the basis of transhuman themes in SR being the devil; just on the basis that 2070 seems way too early for mature nanotech to be plausible.

Something my nano grudge (and that prefix is not about the size of the grudge) produced, all similarities to the Revelation Space novels are purely coincidental:
The world is struck by a strange plague, nanite systems suddenly start going into overdrive, shut down, construct "nanite-teratomae" (building a weird amalgan of an RFID chip, neural pathways for a datajack, and Altskin armor somewhere in your gut), you name it. To make matters worse, these "crazed" nanites also lose the programming intended to keep them in the body as long as possible, so patients will sweat and cough and piss infected nanites which infect other nanites. The only good thing is that this is the only way the disease spreads. It's not the gray goo which turns everything into more nanites, only existing nanosystems are infected. Still, in a world of suborbital flights and crammed arcologies, that is enough to make the infection spread worldwide, every system which uses active nanites and is not completely isolated is either infected of shut down preemptively.

The end result, apart from widespread panic (shouldn't be too deadly, that only complicates things), is that active nanites can only be used in a sealed, sterile environment. You can still get nanofabricated stuff and DNI implants, just that those things have to be done in a cleanroom and the nanites have to be killed off before anything leaves the room. And in the public eye of course nanotech research becomes the equivalent of killing baby seals for science, so most programs are put on back burner.