Gangers should be able to handle themselves in close combat. Not necessarily enough to beat an adept, but enough for a bar brawl.

Ranged dodge works against all ranged attacks you are aware of. You won´t need it for physical driving, where you roll Reaction+Handling+Vehicle Skill for Full Defense.

I dunno, Critias, seeing this kind of thing makes me think it was an appropriate comment. Some of these tactics are truly exotic, while others are merely extreme. And, to me, yesferatu hasn't seemed to be asking for 'the ultimate theoretical rigger' build in this thread. It's true that such suggestions are interesting and possibly valuable, but when someone asks 'does my ganger need any close combat?', it's important to say, 'yes, he's a *ganger*'.

I'd just hate to see the thread derailed by folks banging their heads against one another and chanting ROLL PLAY versus ROLE PLAY while doing it.

I'm not a mod or anything, so it's just me sharing my opinion, here, but it seems more likely to be productive if people just individually share their advice and thoughts -- and then Yes can just sift through them all and see which stuff he likes -- instead of people actively bickering about the advice someone else gave. It just creates a different tone and noise:signal ratio to a thread, I think.

I was individually sharing my advice - make an interesting character - and not bickering about the advice others were giving. And then, interestingly, you chose to bicker about the advice someone else gave, which really created a different tone and signal-to-noise ratio in the thread. But I'm not a mod or anything: it's just me, sharing my opinion, here.

If you can't see how using a term like "optimization crap" might be inflammatory, might be bickering about the advice someone else has given, and might derail this thread, I don't know what to tell you.

As I like to think my track record will show, I'm actually in agreement with you, generally speaking, when it comes to prioritizing fluff versus crunch during character creation and actual play. I was just trying to keep the thread from degenerating into the absolutely never-ending fight about who is indulging in badwrongfun. You seem to have taken some offense to my polite request that we not indulge in that sort of thing, as your sarcastic response shows, so I'll just bow out instead of contributing to the problem I was trying to avert. Knock yourself out, and I'm sorry that my plea to avoid arguing seems to have rubbed you the wrong way.

My opinion is that Udoshi's tactics are… special. It takes a certain table to appreciate them, and yesferatu's questions didn't seem to match. In the interest of helping the OP, we commented.

My opinion, and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, is that you when numbers make comments that are clearly in response to another post, they shouldn't then turn around and claim that they were just stating their general opinion, MAN, and why is everyone acting like they were arguing?

As if there were something wrong with direct arguing.

Seriously, I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that the meta-meta-critique is just as unproductive as the meta-critique itself, as you've clearly just learned. Now I think it's to be followed by at least one of us feigning crucifixion and at least one of us storming away in a huff. But I think we're wrapping it up too quickly: we need another couple pages, at least. ;)

I thought you guys were being helpful. How could I have been so misguided?

Please tell us about your current vision for this character.

You fool!

So...here's what I've got so far...*Keep in mind, I'm all over the place on this guy and I'm coming off a 3 year magic-only stint.
He's a work in progress...and probably needs some tweaking and filling out.

Gremlin - The Scavenger
Greedy, young and foolish vehicle freak.

Human
(240 BP)
B: 4
A: 5
R: 5 (9)
S: 2
C: 2
I: 3
L: 4
W: 3
Edge: 5

Skills: (I'm a bit of a group fiend/jack of all trades) (80BP)
Biotech Group: 1
Cracking Group: 1
Influence Group: 1
Electronics Group: 1
Mechanics Group: 2
Firearms Group: 1
Stealth Group: 1

Pilot Ground: 4 (28 BP)
Navigation: 1
Perception: 1
Armorer: 1

Contacts: (12 BP)
KE Dispatcher: 2/2
Fixer: 2/2
Street Doc 2/2

Knowledges: (21 Free)
Gang Territory: 4
Junkyards: 4
Safe Houses: 3
KE Procedures: 3
Docwagon Procedures: 3
Auto Mechanics: 4

Cash 250,000 (50BP)
Cyberwear: 200,000
Synaptic Booster 2 (160,000)
Reaction Enhancers 2 A (40,000)

Workshop:
Auto Shop 5000
Auto Tools 500
Armorer Tools 500
Bioware Tools 500
Hardware/Electronics Tools 500

Leaving 43,000 for vehicle, comlink/programs & Misc gear

I wanted to get some extra BP for enemy and possibly bad reputations - we'll see what my GM lets me get.
I like the idea of a former/current go-ganger who has gotten himself into trouble picking off the spoils of urban conflict.
I'm not sure how far into organ-legging I can (or should) get away with, but I figure rival gangs don't like it when their wrecked bikes and people disappear.

Synaptic Boosters and Reaction Enhancers do not stack. Also, you are getting precisely 0 use out of Synaptic Boosters rather than Wired Reflexes - you have essence a-plenty. Get WR 2 instead and then get useful things like Muscle Toner.

You are paying 10 bp to be human.

Cracking 1 is not useful to you. At all. You are not remotely good at hacking. You are not even passable at hacking. Lose that, if you really want some ability to do basic hacking, buy an agent.

If you are going to have that many logic skills, at least get skill enhancers rather than having Mechanics 2. Specifically:

With all that money you're going to save by not wasting it on Synaptic Boosters, get Cerebral Boosters 2, PuSHeD, Encephalon 1, and a cyber lower leg with a Nanohive (if anyone QQs about that, point out that Damien Knight does this too) and some armor. That will make you actually good at that enormous pile of skills you have at 1.

Firearms group is a major no-no. You do not want to suck with three different types of guns, you want to be good with (at least) one. Drop that like a hot potato and get Automatics.

If you are looking to make a jack-of-all-trades type character, check my sig and look at the Generalist, who is a good jack-of-all-trades type (although he is a street samurai/face/B&E/hacker and doesn't include driving in that, you can probably learn some things by looking and could likely modify him into a driver).

Or just use karmagen ^^

Thanks, UmaroVI.

So you'd go with an ork?
I've been going back and forth on the groups thing vs. specific skills.
I hate defaulting and I figured I had enough edge to sneak out a roll on anything if I had to.

I think I'll need enough hacking to take over the occasional vehicle and sneak past security, but not take on a dedicated hacker.
Can't I just buy a decent com and maxed out my programs? Out of curiosity, are all your sample hacking packages the same?

So Wired II does stack with reaction enhancers, but synaptic boosters don't?
I only went with the synaptic boosters cause I'm a sissy about essence.

Yes, you can be an ork, keep your stats where they are (getting +1 strength for free) and save 10 bp. You also get lowlight vision, whee.

Edge and low skill is OK for skills you'll use sometimes, it's not OK for your core skills. It's also not a good idea to take Firearms 1; just pick a flexible type of gun and carry different ones.

Hacking is skill based. You currently suck, badly, at hacking. Hacking is not actually that expensive, but you cannot get away with half-assing it like that. You can get away with a hacker-agent, though. Alternatively, you can reconfigure your hacking skills a bit. If you take my advice on the PuSHeD, Encephalon, and Neocortical, that gives you decent bonuses to your hacking skill groups. But you have the same problem of sucking at every aspect of using computers instead of being decent at 1-2 of them. Instead of Electronics 1 and Cracking 1, try having Computer 1, Hardware 4, Hacking 4, Electronic Warfare 1. That's 40 bp (so you do need to free up points), but that plus a decently good commlink will make you a meh alright hacker. Look at the Mercenary Rigger's commlink and programs for about as cheap as you can get without sucking.

Don't be a baby about essence. Synaptic Boosters are for adepts and for full-replacement cyberlimb characters, not for you. And yeah, WR and RE stack, SB and RE do not stack.

You do want to consider if getting all that targeted cyber, bio, and nano fits your character concept. It's fine for many, but you should consider it. Likewise, human/ork has plenty of non-numeric consequences for the actual character.

Which cannot be said often enough. Concept First, Numbers second.
If you are only doing it because the numbers work out better, you wre probably doing it for the wrong reason.

This is basically begging for PuSHeD from augmentation.


Bonuses to Reaction stack from various sources, but not passes, unless the implant say otherwise.

Also, seconding the Karmagen suggestion. It sounds like you want to make an all over the place driver/mechanic/ganger, and karmagen does generalists very well.

Like TJ said, concept first, number second.

There is a big difference in terms of character between being an ork and being human, and more so if you are just after the free points: there is a big difference between an "average" STR & BOD human and the wimpiest STR and BOD ork in all of orkdom (hell, even other orks look down on you as a runt).

If you want to go with the synaptic boosters, go with them. As well as being more cyberware scanner-friendly than wires, it does give you a lot more essence to play with in game. Also, you should be thinking about how your character got the fairly significant 160K to pay for them - did he have a big score at one point? Did he steal/"borrow" the cash from his gang, or did he find a cache of money at a rival gang hq while the gangs were "playing" and keep it to himself? Such questions help flesh out the character and what he's been through to get to where he is.

As much of a fan as I am on skill groups as well, I think you are spread very thin. I would recommend dropping the Cracking group and getting an agent to do your heavy lifting for the time being. I would probably drop the Mechanic skill group to 1 (the difference to your Mechanic DP is minimal, and how often are you going to be using that skill in life-or-death situations?). That gives you 20BP to bump up one or two of your other skill groups, and I would pick the one or two you think you will be using most in game (for me that would be Firearms, Influence or Stealth, depending on what your character wants to emphasize).

If you want the Firearms group, don't be afraid to take it. If you have a high base AGI and/or muscle toner/cyberarm plus smartgun link to boost your DP, you still should be a fairly competent support fighter.

As others suggested, Pushed and/or a cyberarm nanohive with Logic nanites could help boost your LOG based skills as well as your mechanical prowess.

Finally, no Juryrigger +ve quality? Sounds like it is made for the scavenging go-ganger wrench monkey ...

It's true that many smaller purchases probably fit a ganger backstory better; piecemeal incremental augmentation.

Re: Firearms Group, on the other hand, you might not need Sport Rifles, etc. in your ganger's abilities. So it really depends on you. I feel like Automatics is a very reasonable ganger choice (you can just use Machine Pistols), but pistols and shotguns also might make sense.

This is not true. Reaction Enhancers says it doesn't stack with other initiative enhancements other than Wired Reflexes, WR says it doesn't stack with other initiative enhancements other than RE, SB says it doesn't stack with other initiative enhancements, period. SB and RE therefore do not stack.