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OneTrikPony
On a scale of 1-5 how munchkiny is it to use the Genetic Heritage quality, (Aug p20), to give a character a permanent genetic infusion, (Aug p94)?

also, is it leagal by RAW? Also, has there been new genetech released in books since Augmentation?
Irion
@OneTrikPony
Since genetic infusions do suck in my book, 0.3 points of essence gone for a small boni and mosty a small drawback, I would not care.
Glyph
Game balance-wise, I would consider letting a player take it with the Mysterious Implant quality (normally you don't get to pick it, so I would only give half the normal points for it, and I would still pick the addiction - that sounds fair).

Genetic heritage, I don't see, more due to the description of the quality than because of game balance. Infusions are relatively recent, and very unstable, and not suited for long term usage - someone with a permanent infusion would be like a Rifts juicer, really. I don't see a baby being brought to term and growing up with one of these.
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 22 2012, 06:54 AM) *
Game balance-wise, I would consider letting a player take it with the Mysterious Implant quality (normally you don't get to pick it, so I would only give half the normal points for it, and I would still pick the addiction - that sounds fair.


Hmm. I read that differently. The GM picks the addiction not the infusion. Good point about the timeline of infusions vs. genetic heritage tho.
thanks.

PS. Juicers Drool; Full Conversion Borgs Rule! biggrin.gif
Nice to find a fellow rifter on the boards.
Whitefur
You will get them permanently by rolling 5+ hits on your essence+edge dice. But only one out of four infusions are going to make a playable character. Inspiration is the only one that doesn´t give you drawbacks that are to severe to make the object unplayable.
Glyph
I've never actually played RIFTS, but "How can I make a juicer in Shadowrun" seems to be a perennial topic, which is how I know about them.

The long term effects of a permanent infusion are up in the air, but considering how hard the user crashes after the normal duration, having it last forever couldn't be good.

Braveheart could eventually give the equivalent of the impulsive and oblivious flaws, the same lifestyle cost increase that a suprathyroid gland gives, and eventually severe long-term memory problems.

Endure would be the worst, giving the user the effects of severe sleep deprivation. Slab or similar knock-out drugs would be needed just to be able to temporarily crash, but that would only keep the inevitable deterioration at bay for awhile.

Inspiration, which normally gives a huge, huge hangover after its duration expires, would probably give the character migraines. The constant bliss and pleasure would eventually burn the character out into a jaded shell, much like meth use does.

Sideways is the most viable out of the four, but it will still typically include an addiction to a street drug, and feeling no pain at all would probably give the character the mental problems associated with sensory deprivation eventually. Simsense might help alleviate that, and a biomonitor would alleviate some of the risk of not knowing when you are bleeding out from a cut to a major artery.

Permanent genetic infusions seem best suited for characters who are messed up - live hard, die young, leave a charred corpse surrounded by 20 dead security guards. cool.gif
Irion
QUOTE
Sideways is the most viable out of the four, but it will still typically include an addiction to a street drug, and feeling no pain at all would probably give the character the mental problems associated with sensory deprivation eventually. Simsense might help alleviate that, and a biomonitor would alleviate some of the risk of not knowing when you are bleeding out from a cut to a major artery.

First of all, why the addiction to a street drug. Since it is only pain receptors, it would actually not matter (If I am not misstaken there are people with a condition which also causes your painreceptors to malfunciton. I do not think they suffer from sensory deprivation, thought). If I do not feel pain, it is not a bad thing.
A problem would be, that you would start behaving a bit reckless. A biomonitor is a great thing, but it won't tell you on the fly, that the thing you are touching is really hot and you should not do it. So I guess you will always have little injuries and burns and you do not know where they came from.
But it is the only one, which is RAW (well, maybe inspiration) not a total pain in the ass.
(True, actually it is freaking good. Did not remember that one...)

One question still remains for me: What the hell are combat tests? Only ranged and melee combat (and maybe one additional die to reaction test) or ALL test made in combat (which would be to good!)

QUOTE
Permanent genetic infusions seem best suited for characters who are messed up - live hard, die young, leave a charred corpse surrounded by 20 dead security guards.

Actually, it is more for the guys who like gambling and win.

Honestly: If you do not have at least essence+edge 6, I would not dare it. Critical glitch and there goes your character...
(And edge may not be spend on this test!)
Yerameyahu
Presumably, Combat Active Skills.
Udoshi
I do not think it is too imbalanced.

The Permanent Infusion quality already exists: RC 106. Its a negative quality that nets you 10 points, and also sticks you with a drug addiction, but also a free Infusion of your choice.

a 10bp POSITIVE quality that does something similiar, without the downside, seems right to me.

In case people missed it, you can already start with it. It seems less munchkiney for people to pay FOR the thing they want instead of getting it for free.


Then again, our table doesn't really mind re-fluffing mechanics into a different name that is more apt/appropriately fitting/less common-sense-breakey while still maintaining the cost and effect of whatever it is.
Whitefur
The thing with not feeling pain is that your not gona feel your own skin. Hens no physical joy, am I still holding my gun?, did I wet myself, smells like it etc
I myself has cos of an accident this problem in one of my legs and its no fun. Always afraid to hurt it and you Walk like your dunk. No feeling in your feets meens you wobbel:)
Irion
Lets look at it. All exept sideway is useless.
I think sideways should only apply to stun damage like the pain editor.
Than it would be a good deal, but not that powerful.
Right now it is quite good for 0.4 essence, but on the other hand the nanohive in the cyberfoot is way worse.
CanRay
"Why are things squishy? That's because I wet myself." - Hardison, Leverage
Glyph
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 22 2012, 01:20 PM) *
First of all, why the addiction to a street drug.

I was going by how the Mysterious Implant flaw works, as well as the fluff of "most genetic infusions also trigger synthesis of an addictive chemical." This is dodgy technology, and the people pushing it are not really any different than the people peddling cram and jazz.
Irion
QUOTE (Whitefur @ Jan 22 2012, 11:10 PM) *
The thing with not feeling pain is that your not gona feel your own skin. Hens no physical joy, am I still holding my gun?, did I wet myself, smells like it etc
I myself has cos of an accident this problem in one of my legs and its no fun. Always afraid to hurt it and you Walk like your dunk. No feeling in your feets meens you wobbel:)

Not really. Pain sensation is quite different from warm/cold, touch etc. Those are different receptor cells.
Stahlseele
"most genetic infusions also trigger synthesis of an addictive chemical."
This would, to me, mean that a body starts producing a drug.
Which the owner of the body could, probably, have milked from his body and sold for a profit.
And the body itself would probably go immune against such a thing . .
In SR3, getting a chemical gland(bioware that produces chemical X) made you immune to chemical X at least.
Because the Body knows: OK, this here is mine, this belongs here, no need to freak out about it . .

@Irion: there are no pain receptors.
There are heat, cold and pressure receptors.
And if the input is too strong, then it's painfull.
Because it is too much for your body to handle.
So it tells you to stop doing whatever it is that makes you experience that much heat/cold/pressure.
OK, so there are receptors that react to puncturing wounds too, but that's still no PAIN receptor.
Yerameyahu
That's the last thing that could ever mean, Stahlseele. If I had to guess, it's supposed to mean that getting an infusion is, itself, addictive. You'd have to be a total munchkin to say that you get a free chem gland, free immunity, and become a walking drug factory… all as a side effect. wink.gif
Irion
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 23 2012, 12:25 AM) *
"most genetic infusions also trigger synthesis of an addictive chemical."
This would, to me, mean that a body starts producing a drug.
Which the owner of the body could, probably, have milked from his body and sold for a profit.
And the body itself would probably go immune against such a thing . .
In SR3, getting a chemical gland(bioware that produces chemical X) made you immune to chemical X at least.
Because the Body knows: OK, this here is mine, this belongs here, no need to freak out about it . .

It is late, I suggest you read it again tomorrow wink.gif
QUOTE
@Irion: there are no pain receptors.
There are heat, cold and pressure receptors.
And if the input is too strong, then it's painfull.
Because it is too much for your body to handle.
So it tells you to stop doing whatever it is that makes you experience that much heat/cold/pressure.
OK, so there are receptors that react to puncturing wounds too, but that's still no PAIN receptor.

Yes, there are no pain-receptors anymore, because of the definition of the word "pain". They are called Nociceptors.
Yerameyahu
It's definitely a good change, as well, that a chem gland doesn't make you immune. That never made sense. Even some animals that use toxins aren't immune to them; biology isn't magic.
Udoshi
Just a nitpick, but the Natural Immunity quality might be relevant here. It can protect you from the downsides of chemicals
OneTrikPony
I doubt that the insensitivity to pain that comes with the infusion Sideways is debilitating, It's probably more on the scale of Congenital Analgesia

I'm also rethinking my agreement that Infusions could not be an effect of the quality Genetic Heritage. It's probable that all Somatic gene therapies were first explored and developed as Germline therapies.

Thanks for all your input.
I've decided that permanent infusions as Genetic Heratage qualities are only level 2 on the munchkin scale. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
I don't see how, Udoshi. Unless the GM somehow decides that your Natural Immunity miraculously happens to be the specific addictive by-product of your unnatural Genetic Infusion. Even if, that's a lot of BP to spend on something. :/
OneTrikPony
About the "adictive chemical"

I'm pretty sure that the point is that the Infusions themselves are addictive not that the infusion triggers the synthesis of JAZ or novacoke. This could be by design or by accident. It's easy enough to understand that any of the mentally effecting infusions could create dopamine rushes or mess with those receptors.
Yerameyahu
Yup. It certainly doesn't mean 'choose any addictive drug'. smile.gif
Glyph
Going by the flavor text, it is by design on the part of the unscrupulous people pushing genetic infusions. Again, "most genetic infusions also trigger synthesis of an addictive chemical." The negative quality in Runner's Companion (under Mysterious Implant) specifies that the genetic infusion is accompanied by a moderate addiction to a street drug. So presumably the infusion creates the dependency, but doesn't synthesize the drug after the first time? Or it synthesizes the drug at regular intervals? I lean towards the first one, but either one is bad. Either you need to get a regular supply of a street drug, with all of the hassles that entails, or you get drugged up at certain intervals, maybe not always predictable ones.

It can be a random street drug, but I like making it a plausible one. Maybe someone with a permanent Endure infusion needs doses of slab to be able to rest at all. Maybe someone with a permanent Inspiration infusion needs to take dopadrine every now and then to come down from that exhausting, continual high.

I would be careful about allowing a player to take Natural Immunity for a drug - it is intended for diseases and toxins only. The problem with drugs is the line about the character being able to take a dose at a certain interval "with no ill effects". This is an innocuous line applied to naga venom or VITAS, but for drugs, the munchkins all squeal, glomp onto that line, and proclaim that this means they can take combat drugs, infusions, and so on, and get the bonuses, no problem, but then not suffer any ill effects afterwards. Which is patently ludicrous. If you are immune to something, it shouldn't affect you at all. The "ill effects" line is only there because diseases and toxins don't have any non-ill effects. So if a player asks you about taking that quality for a drug, be sure to have the rulebook handy. Not to quote, but to smack them with.
Sengir
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 23 2012, 06:02 AM) *
I doubt that the insensitivity to pain that comes with the infusion Sideways is debilitating

You know where the idea that Leprosy causes the victim to "fall apart" comes from? That's what happens when people constantly hurt themselves without realizing they did wink.gif
OneTrikPony
wow, that's a major stretch. Leprosy and analgesia? Not the same thing, not even similar symptoms.

People with CIP are pretty much normal, they're not numb. It's just that sensations that would be painful to other people are not uncomfortable to them. It's pretty hard on toddlers and children but adults learn to deal with it.

There's a fairly good description of a character with the condition in the Stigler book; The Girl Who Played With Fire.
Thanee
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 22 2012, 11:05 PM) *
I do not think it is too imbalanced.

The Permanent Infusion quality already exists: RC 106. Its a negative quality that nets you 10 points, and also sticks you with a drug addiction, but also a free Infusion of your choice.

a 10bp POSITIVE quality that does something similiar, without the downside, seems right to me.

In case people missed it, you can already start with it. It seems less munchkiney for people to pay FOR the thing they want instead of getting it for free.


This. smile.gif

As for the Combat Tests... read the description of Synch, which is the same effect (Sideways is a combination of Reakt and Synch, after all). The Sideways description only includes a short list of the modifiers, but not the complete description. It should work the same, though.

I think it applies to all offensive and defensive attacks made against opponent's that have attacked at least once during that combat.

Bye
Thanee
snowRaven
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 23 2012, 09:47 AM) *
wow, that's a major stretch. Leprosy and analgesia? Not the same thing, not even similar symptoms.

People with CIP are pretty much normal, they're not numb. It's just that sensations that would be painful to other people are not uncomfortable to them. It's pretty hard on toddlers and children but adults learn to deal with it.

There's a fairly good description of a character with the condition in the Stigler book; The Girl Who Played With Fire.


Without pain sensation, there is a great risk for not noticing small cuts, which may lead to infections that, if untreated, can cause bad problems. My mother has complete lack of sensation in her legs, and must be on watch for such things. My paternal grandfather had severe loss of feeling in his hands towards the end of his life, and if distracted (especially if drinking, or engaged in a radio show or book) would let his filter-less cigarettes burn down between his fingers - often not noticing anything until the smell of burned flesh reached his nostrils. He could feel warmth, but it was in no way uncomfortable and if he was doing someting else he simply didn't notice. The worst one burned through to the bone...
That said, it's not like you'll fall apart automatically just because you can't feel pain.

Another thing that can be a problem is biting your tongue/cheeks - if you don't feel the pain, you are actually likely to keep chewing until you taste blood, causing a fair amount of damage. There's two separate groups of people in eastern europe that suffer from hereditary lack of pain sensation, and the insides of their mouths get quite mangled up over time. It's unlikely to cause major in-game problems, though.

When you don't feel the pain, it's very easy to miss other sensory clues of minor injury when you are focused on something else. Ever found a bruise or small cut that you have no clue where it came from? Injured yourself in some way while drunk, angry, frustrated or working intensely and not realized that you were bleeding and in pain until you calmed down? Been in a fight and not felt the pain of an injury until afterwards? Even people with normal pain sensation can, in a heated situation, mistake a knife wound for a hard shove or punch (had a friend who this happened to - didn't realize he was stabbed until he felt wet...)

In all of those situations, someone who doesn't feel pain won't make the connection to the injury without checking, noticing it by chance, or having it pointed out to them by someone else. In a shadowrunning life, odds of small cuts and scrapes that go unnoticed would be pretty big, and you'd have to do a careful check-up after each combat to determine if you were hit, how badly, etc. Internal injuries may be present without being obvious even to a doctor at a cursory check.

Then there's the risk of aggravating wounds because you ignore the warnings - trying to stand on a broken leg; twisting a smaller spinal injury into someting much worse; accidentally pushing a piece of bone into the brain when investigating the strange sensation at the back of your head that turned out to be from being hit with a mace instead of a fist... grinbig.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jan 23 2012, 09:21 AM) *
If you are immune to something, it shouldn't affect you at all. The "ill effects" line is only there because diseases and toxins don't have any non-ill effects. So if a player asks you about taking that quality for a drug, be sure to have the rulebook handy. Not to quote, but to smack them with.


Or just let them. Then, when they try the drug...nothing much happens.
Sengir
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 23 2012, 09:47 AM) *
It's pretty hard on toddlers and children but adults learn to deal with it.

...because they hurt themselves all the time without realizing they did, leading to opportunistic infections which will again not be felt. Which is exactly what also caused the popular image of Leprosy making random limbs fall off.
OneTrikPony
Again, it's not the same thing. it's not lack of sensation from being a leper or diabetic or having carpal. People with CIP can feel; it just doesn't hurt. The kids chew on their lips not because they're numb and they don't know they're doing it but because kids chew on stuff and kids with CIP don't know when to stop.

the only reason i'm continuing to derail my own thread by arguing this point is that it would make me sad if someone took this point of view and used it to bother characters with damage compensators, pain editors, or sideways infusions. Not feeling pain is not the same as a lack of sensation or numbness.
Stahlseele
SR3 had a +4 TN to feel stuff, when the pain editor as active.
You basically needed a Biomonitor wired into your body with a connection to some sort of optical display, to know that you had been shot in the back . .
Sengir
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 23 2012, 03:37 PM) *
People with CIP can feel; it just doesn't hurt.

And that is the WHOLE BLOODY POINT. People who don't feel pain will hurt themselves without realizing they did, making them vulnerable to wound infections which they again won't notice because they don't feel pain.

Which is also mentioned in the descriptions of Sideways and the Pain Editor. The character has no idea of how badly he is hurt, if he did not notice the attack he won't even know he's hurt at all.
Yerameyahu
Totally, Glyph: you can't be immune to something *and* get the benefits.

OneTrikPony, you're *supposed* to bother characters with those things. You're supposed to bother characters with any things. smile.gif
Stahlseele
Well, the immunity with the chemical gland only helped you against the chemical you wanted to produce. Be it from the internal supply or from an external source. And it was used for built in weapons, nothing else. So if you took an enhancement drug, you could only coat weapons with it, sweat it out, spit it out or something else, but you could not have yourself be on a constant high from the drug without any ill effects.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 22 2012, 02:20 PM) *
First of all, why the addiction to a street drug. Since it is only pain receptors, it would actually not matter (If I am not misstaken there are people with a condition which also causes your painreceptors to malfunciton. I do not think they suffer from sensory deprivation, thought). If I do not feel pain, it is not a bad thing.


Having no pain response is a Very Bad Thing.
Stahlseele
Well, if you can't switch it on and off at least . .
Beleive you me, i would take that problem in exchange for never ever having to fear a visit to the dentist again <.<
snowRaven
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 23 2012, 03:37 PM) *
Again, it's not the same thing. it's not lack of sensation from being a leper or diabetic or having carpal. People with CIP can feel; it just doesn't hurt. The kids chew on their lips not because they're numb and they don't know they're doing it but because kids chew on stuff and kids with CIP don't know when to stop.

the only reason i'm continuing to derail my own thread by arguing this point is that it would make me sad if someone took this point of view and used it to bother characters with damage compensators, pain editors, or sideways infusions. Not feeling pain is not the same as a lack of sensation or numbness.


Yes - a normally functioning adult with CIP won't chew off his lip; but biting ones tongue or cheek while eating, you won't notice it much without pain reception: your teeth and mouth expect resistance, and your cheeks and tongue except contact and pressure. With pain not being a factor, you won't be able to judge that the pressure is too much, until it's too late, and you'll only relize you've bitten yourself when you taste blood or feel around with your tongue and notice the damage.

The same goes for small scratches, pinpricks, small cuts etc - it's often not enough pressure or contact to notice unless you're expecting it, and without pain reception something very sharp like a razor will slice deep before you even realize it's there. Ever cut yourself shaving? Does it 'feel' anything, except pain?

Cold and heat will also not be felt properly without pain reception. You'll notice that it's 'warm', but not that the temperature is enough to burn you until you smell burning flesh or see the damage. If you put your hand on a hot stove, you won't immediately have the reaction to pull your hand back, and the damage to your body will be much more extensive than it had been otherwise. The same goes for cutting yourself when cooking, for instance.

Someone giving you a hard push or punch is noticable, but you may not notice at all that said punch had a blade attached, because the entrance of the blade doesn't cause any pain - only pressure. Deep sensation is quite limited, so you'll likely not feel anything special there either.

Even if you have noticed a cut in a place on your body where you can't see it, you'll have to keep checking it, because you won't notice if it gets infected, or if it opens up again. Internal damage won't hurt and won't be noticable at all unless it creates a big swelling, a bruise, or reduced function of some bodily process.

The condition will be quite manageable to someone living a 'normal' life, but to someone constantly putting themselves at risk the way a shadowrunner (pr policemanm, or fire-fighter) does it will be quite dangerous. Even someone in a profession like construction, craftsmanship, or the like will be at high risk compared to someone with normal pain sensation.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 23 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Having no pain response is a Very Bad Thing.


For the people who are debating this thread, I already found a fix for sideways a while ago.

Those pain and touch receptors?
They're still there.
Your body just ignores them now.
You know what can fix that?
Surgery and come good metal hardware.

I'm kinda proud of myself because I made a Touch Link actually WORTH something.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Irion @ Jan 22 2012, 01:20 PM) *
One question still remains for me: What the hell are combat tests? Only ranged and melee combat (and maybe one additional die to reaction test) or ALL test made in combat (which would be to good!)


Sidways is a combination of a couple transgen treatments. The one that increases the combat skills is Synch.

QUOTE
Synch: Synch is a nootropic protein that affects cognitive
abilities in the brain cells of the visual cortex. This enhances intui-
tive comprehension and pattern recognition abilities. Characters
receive a +1 dice pool modifier on all Perception Tests. In addi-
tion, recipients accustomed to combat situation develop a battle
awareness based on fighting styles and moves, which allows them
to respond and adapt quickly to their opponent’s fighting style.
When in combat, the character receives +1 die to all combat tests
against each opponent after the enemy’s first attack.
This enhance-
ment is incompatible with Dynomitan.


So that's the extended version... and it clarifies nothing. The fluff suggests it's good for H2H specifically since there's specific mention of styles or moves. But, what would the liberal interpretation of a combat test be? I'd say any roll detailed in the Core book under the section labeled "Combat" give or take. So, dodging, shooting, punching, throwing, hitting a dude with a vehicle, basically any opposed test which takes place within combat.

The fact that Sideways doesn't have the "after the first attack" stipulation makes it better than Synch though, which is dumb and a good reason to bar it from Genetic Heritage. Getting Reakt, Synch+, and Pain Tolerance times infinity for 10 bp is some hardcore munchkin horse shit.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 25 2012, 08:38 PM) *
Getting Reakt, Synch+, and Pain Tolerance times infinity for 10 bp is some hardcore munchkin horse shit.


Is it really any worse than getting PAID 5bp to take all that stuff via the permanent infusion negative quality?

Considering the alternative, I would rather a player PAY to take something so powerful.

(also reakt and sideways stack if you're trying to be the most hardcore munchkin)
Yerameyahu
I dunno if comparing bad to worse is useful, Udoshi. smile.gif
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jan 25 2012, 10:38 PM) *
But, what would the liberal interpretation of a combat test be? I'd say any roll detailed in the Core book under the section labeled "Combat" give or take. So, dodging, shooting, punching, throwing, hitting a dude with a vehicle, basically any opposed test which takes place within combat.

The simpler reading of the rule would be that the ware gives a bonus to "Combat Active Skills" tests. As is indicated by the ware synch.
Yerameyahu
That's what I said. smile.gif But yeah, would it kill them to ever just be specific when they make rules?
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 24 2012, 12:02 AM) *
Totally, Glyph: you can't be immune to something *and* get the benefits.

I disagree partially. You cannot be totally immune to something and get its benefits. You can be immune to its ill effects and get its benefits as stated in the rules.
snowRaven
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 27 2012, 03:30 AM) *
I disagree partially. You cannot be totally immune to something and get its benefits. You can be immune to its ill effects and get its benefits as stated in the rules.


Then you aren't 'totally immune' are you?

Total immunity means just that - you are totally immune; it doesn't affect you.
toturi
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jan 27 2012, 10:42 AM) *
Then you aren't 'totally immune' are you?

Total immunity means just that - you are totally immune; it doesn't affect you.

Of course not.

But nowhere in the Immunity Quality does it state that it confers total immunity, does it? So with Immunity, you are not totally immune.
Yerameyahu
It's hard to say. In many cases, the ill effects are not separable from the benefits. A drug that supercharges you *must* crash you; you can't be 'immune' to having all your resources depleted at an accelerated rate. The upside of NoPaint is pain resistance; the downside is loss of tactile perception, so you can't get one without the other. And so on.

But, I was mostly speaking from a practical point of view, not biological. smile.gif If you're talking about strict RAW, you could certainly read it as 'just the ill effects go away'. However, if you're being *strict*, Natural Immunity only allows diseases and *toxins*, not drugs. (This is exactly what Glyph was talking about at the time, and I thought he explained it well.) It's clearly not intended as a drug-boosting quality. The Natural Venom quality does say 'complete immunity', but it too is only for toxins (obviously). Are you referring to something else?
snowRaven
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 27 2012, 03:52 AM) *
Of course not.

But nowhere in the Immunity Quality does it state that it confers total immunity, does it? So with Immunity, you are not totally immune.


Oh, certainly! But with that reading, you also have to specify what, exactly, are 'ill' effects. Negative dice pool modifiers? Loss of memory? Reduced stats? Pain tolerance? Increased stats? Berserk rage? Astral perception?

You'd generally have to specify that 'ill' means 'bad for the body', and the way drugs work is not 'first we give this bonus, then we change the effect of the drug'. Most drugs work like this: 'we give you an effect of the drug, then the drug wears off' ony after that last part do you get the 'negative' effects, because they are produced by your body when the drug goes out of the system.

So in most cases, you'd either get all normal effects, or no effects at all. With some drugs you might rule that part of the effects are 'ill effects' and part of them are 'beneficial', but that's stretching it for most things.
Yerameyahu
Yup. That's because it's talking about diseases and toxins, which produce basically nothing but ill effects. If the GM is breaking the rules to allow drugs, he should also break the rules to make the immunity more explicitly 'total'. It's silly to follow the RAW in one place, but not another (… basically, when it's convenient). smile.gif
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