How is the GM breaking the rules to allow drugs? Isn't drugs on the list of items which the character can be immune to? The RAW is explicit that you can be immune to drugs, it is also explicit that the character can take one dose in a time period without ill effects.

The way drugs work in SR4 is 'first we give this bonus, then we give this ill effect'. I do not assume that SR4 biochemistry has any more than surface resemblance with real life biochemistry.

… Um, no. It says 'diseases or toxins', AFAIK, which is why Glyph and I both pointed out that fact. Where are you looking? I wasn't even aware there was a list, which would be a very nice, but very D&D-like, rules strategy.

First, Drugs ARE Toxins, of a sort...

And Second, straight out of the Rules for Natural Immunity.



So, Yes, By RAW, Drugs are something you can choose. And secondly, Toturi does have it right. There are Beneficial Effects, and Ill Effects, and they are definitely seperated in the descriptions of the applicable Drug. And I have to agree. Drugs, and their abuse (even the designer ones that have no obvious drawbacks, which is how I would likely utilize the Natural Immunity Quality, as a form of planned avoidance) are a staple of Cyberpunk.

Yes, this may be bad writing, but it is still there.
As long as the GM and the Player agree on the conditions of the Immunity (as is required in the Quality), it is, technically, allowable.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, but crashing after overdriving your system is NOT an ill effect from the drug. It is the drawback from the "benefitial" effect. So it would not apply.
An effect has to come directly from the drug.
For example:
If I go injected with adranelin, it will have an effect on my system. That after running for several hours like a maniac I am tiered, is not an effect of the drug. It is an effect of the drug wearing off.


Nearly everything is techniqually allowable or disallowable... We have no way to set up an experiment afterall. And the rules of shadowrun are really not very detail oriented.

Tell me something and I tell you how you could arguee the opposit if you just "assume" a few things...

(To make a system really immune to this kind of stuff, you need at first 2 pages of word definition, followed by 4 pages of tables listing the modifieres and how they stack and by what they are limited.)

But abuse of the *rules* isn't. Thanks for showing me where it says 'drugs', though. It still sounds to me like they're describing negative, 'toxin' substances; 'you drugged me!'-type stuff. They're not using rules keywords, after all ('poison' instead of 'toxin'). It certainly seems like a defensive Quality in intent, and they would've said 'drugs' the whole time otherwise, instead of only the fourth mention.

As with most rules, things are abstracted for sake of playability (though at times it seems the results are the opposite of that...)

In most cases, the damage you take from a drug, or the temporarily reduced stats, only come into effect after the drug wears off. If the drug isn't working anymore, how can an immunity to it have any effect?

Even assuming that you still get all the beneficial effects with immunity, the only ill effects that are actually produced by the drug would be any listed 'effects' that can be deemed negative. Take 'Red Mescaline' as an example:

Duration: (18-Body) hours
Effect: +1 Charisma, -1 Reaction, +2 Perception, +1 Willpower, Disorientation
Description: At the end of the duration, Charisma and Willpower are reduced to 1 for an equivalent duration.

The Charisma and Willpower 1 isn't an effect of the drug, it happens after the duration runs out. The Disorientation and -1 Reaction, however, are effects of the drug, and can be deemed 'ill' effects.

I'd say the most liberal interpretation of the RAW would be that you don't suffer Disorientation and -1 Reaction while the drug works, but you still get the Charisma + Willpower reduced to 1 after it wears off. Possibly, addiction could be deemed an ill effect, and if you have immunity you can't get addicted...

Personally, I'd rule that immunity removes all effects, though.

Ha, that's a good point. Diseases and toxins have their ill effects *while* they're in effect, not after, so it fits perfectly. I agree that I would never even allow that lesser trickery, myself.

I'd say your interpretation would be one of the stricter interpretations of the RAW.

However most liberal interpretation of the RAW would be that not only do you not suffer Disorientation and -1 Reaction while the drug is working, but you still get the Charisma + Willpower reduced to 1 due to its wearing off and you also do not need to roll for addiction.

Except that, as written, the penalties suffered when a drug runs out aren't listed under 'Effects', and happen after the drug stops working...so it's quite a stretch to rule that this is part of the effect of the drug.

Hence liberal interpretation. Furthermore, the text does not explicitly say that the drug stop working, only that it "wears off". A (admittedly) liberal interpretation of "wear off" could well be that the positive effects end and the ill effects start.

@toturi
Well, thats not liberal... Thats quite beyond.
If you take this as a basis, you may arguee for anything you like and against anything...

Never the less it seems very often to be a popular form of interpretating the rules, untill somebody does it that way and aims a bit higher...
Then it is nonsense...

Agreed...
And no problem. It opens itself up to rules abuse, but when you have a GM with some common sense, it is not really applicable in actual play; at least not at our table. Though we do have some lively debates on this particular topic, from time to time, when someone else discovers the (likely erroneous) possibilities inherent in the Quality.

Much like the discussions of the Bioware Chemical Gland and what it means to have a drug (assuming it is allowed) permanently coursing through your body. Since you cannot have the drug "wear off," since it never does, you never suffer the "wear off" effects. Good Times.

Very true...though taking it for 'Long Haul' or 'Oxygnated Flourocarbons' can lead to interesting possibilities...

It says 'doses at regular intervals'. But those aren't natural anyway.

The RAW can be wonky if you don't make an effort to see the intent of the rules, open to interpretation as the latter often is.

An example - Thorns, a negative SURGE quality, cause discomfort, resulting in... a +1 to all Physical Tests? Obviously, the writer was confused. In SR3, a penalty would be +1 TN, but in SR4, a penalty is a subtraction of dice. So it should be read as -1 to Physical Tests. Going strictly by RAW, though, taking the Thorns negative quality gives you a +1 to a lot of dice rolls.

How congenital analgesia in action would be portrayed in Shadowrun...

(Skip to 4:01

- J.

Aren't the drugs you get addicted to mentioned in the descriptions of the infusion. All four of them mention a drug they produce in your body.

Tetrahydrocannabinol (marijuana) for Braveheart.
Ethanol (booze) for Inspiration.
Opiates (heroin, morphine, oxy etc) for Sideways.
Endure mentions caffeine, kind of lightweight for a street drug but if you ended up on it permanently you'd need to take something to sleep.

Mores the point the negative effects from Braveheart is insinuated to come solely from being high as a kite, so if your immune to dope you won't suffer any of the negative effects of the infusion. That may also be true of Inspiration but the other two infusions seem to get at least some of there benefits from the drugs hey produce in the users body.

Also hypoalegesia (the inability to feel pain) can cause some pretty severe problems. My mother just lost a toe to an infection and my wifes aunt died after her foot became gangrenous without her knowing. Both had hypoalegesia in there legs(caused by hypertension and diabetes respectively) both could feel something but didn't classify it as a serious problem because it didn't hurt. People with these issues need to be diligent about checking every little sensation because our mind tends to filter out most sensory input that isn't flagged "important" via pain.

Another interesting bit of trivia. Common problems for people with congenital analgesia not mentioned in the wiki article is joint degradation, bone infections and skeletal tumors. Apparently when you can't feel pain you often sleep in positions that puts a horrible strain on your bones and joints without knowing it. This damage is pretty much impossible to detect till a bone disintegrates because the only real sensation you get from your bones is pain.

That's true, main75man, but I thought people were talking about the Mysterious Implant ("The character starts off with a permanent Genetic Infusion (p.94, Augmentation) and a permanent Moderate Addiction (p.80, SR4) to a street drug of the gamemaster’s choice.") option. You're right that non-Mysterious choices have specified effects already. The point, AFAIK, is that you can't get your Infusion to just randomly produce drugs for you.

If it was beyond a liberal interpretation of the RAW, then I would have strenuously disagreed with it.

Nonsense or not, it is still a RAW interpretation of the rules, although a liberal one.

Players don't get to pick their permanent Infusion with the Mysterious Implant quality.


Enjoy your +2 to athletic tests and biological addiction to Nitro.

I think you mean, take Permanent Infusion four times.

What book is Permanent Infusion in?

EDIT: Disregard. I see it under Mysterious Implant. And yes, the player isn't supposed to pick it. They just pick the Quality and the point value.

- J.

Which doesn't necessarily mean the GM will choose the numerically worst option. But, it does mean the GM probably *won't* pick the perfect one you wanted, and you'll have a real Moderate Addiction to something you have to *buy* no matter what.

The OP was about buying it with Genetic Heritage, as a positive quality. It doesn't fit that (too new, too experimental, and I can't see a baby growing up with it). I could see allowing it as a separate positive quality, but I would still probably include the drug addiction - stuff like Sideways is too powerful if it doesn't come with any drawbacks (sure, no pain sensation is a bit of a drawback, but biomonitors are pretty cheap).

How the character came by having genetic infusion as a Genetic Heritage would have to be plausible.

Genetic Heritage (genetic infusion) as a stand alone? Probably not.

Genetic Heritage (genetic infusion) + Escaped Clone? I can see that happening.

There's still no safe way to artificially accelerate clonal development safely in SR is there?

EDIT: The pain editor used to do exactly the same thing Sideways does, didn't it? How is it *gamebreaking* now when you have Possession mages break the game on its knee with minimal effort?

- J.

I am not sure. Isn't there?

Maybe there is no safe way to artificially accelerate clonal development in SR, but I think that as long as it is possible to artificially accelerate clonal development, no matter how risky or how bleeding edge it may be, then the character concept could hold up.

I like your thinking.

- J.

does the idea that pretty much all Somatic gene treatments will have been tested and developed as germline modifications in animals (and metahumans) seem plausible?

If I write up a character with a "heritage infusion" the story would be that his mom (an ork) was a Yamatetsu experimental "volunteer". Some of the stuff they did to her was passed on to the character in some unexpected ways. (there's tonns of cannon for that going back to before the 40's, starting with the very first trilogy)

The topic has come up among our group before.

Basically it comes down to this: Forced growth spare parts 'gimp' clones that get grown in a month or two? Yeah, THOSE really don't have any viable mental activity to become a person.

Regular cloning, tho? Dolly the lamb with humans?
That shit works really good.
You can't grow a person from scratch, no - but if you're willing to wait 9 months and a few years, then yeah, test-tube kiddies are better than ever.

Being a clone isn't a far-fetched concept. being a forced growth clone is - and there's a difference.
Personally, I think there's a bit of room for a middle ground - slower-growth(but still faster than normal) clones with viable brains exists. They are mentioned in the augmentation Jarhead rules for, you guessed it, Clonal Brains.


Also, regarding qualities like genetic heritage:
Would it really be so far fetched to take the quality and say 'yeah my character got this after being born due to a really nasty retroviral injection. Like way worse than genetic infusions drug packages USUALLY come with. The quality works the same'
I never really get arguing semantics over non-mechanical fluff issues with the name of a quality.
You could call it fricking anything else, and people wouldn't have a problems associated with when your character was born.

I have no problem with that; a rose by any other name...

the only argument against having an infusion as a Genetic Heritage trait would be that, if its actually an infusion, then your zygote would have to have been infected which would mean that you're only 5 or 6 years old in 2073. So essentially I'm doing the same thing with my character concept. I'm taking an infusion and calling it by another name; a germline therapy.

Since I'm allready off work and I allready drew the picture, I'm going to write this character up and post it her tonight to see what people think.

About the force growth cloning thing; It kinda stretches my suspension of disbelief. (yes I realize this is SR and I should get over that but it's just one more straw on the cammel's back.) It's not the brain development that bothers me though. You could let the clone grow for three years and have a viable brain and if you "wake it up" at that point you'll have someone with the brain plasticity of a three year old--and the mind of an infant-- so what it works fine. The major issue is how to make an adult body in those three years. That would be impossible with out Eclipse Phase level nanotechnology or Startreck fabricators.

Yeah, it really just depends how married you are to the sense of Genetic *Heritage*; worst case, rename the Quality 'Permanent Infusion'… but honestly, you should just pay the Essence. Genetic Heritage is already shaky enough on the Essence question.

Shakey on the essence question? I don't know what you mean by that? are you talking about the essence reduction for future genetic treatments? That didn't strike me as overpowered.

Didn't say 'overpowered', but yes, I meant it's weird you're getting the free modification *and* a special discount; by contrast, the Permanent Infusion has no such effect. It's just a funky combination to me, and we're talking about people just wanting the Infusion.

I meant that you should just buy the infusion at chargen as normal. If the GM requires a BP sacrifice to get the 'Permanent' result, I'd think 5BP.

No, that question has actually been answered pretty conclusively and officially. You still pay essence for it, which.... makes it basically exactly like permanent infusion.

One of the more useful faq answers. Get with the times, man.

Sorry, did I mention that I've been away from SR for a couple years?
OHH... So you pay the essence cost of the gear you get with the genetic heritage quality?
That kind of flies in the face of the sentence; "Such an inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic modification (see p. 72) for free."
Where is this official FAQ

[edit] It's not available on the SR4 site I just checked. Is it posted somewhere else?

Official FAQ is here. It says that you have to pay Essence (and BP for the Qualifty), but not nuyen.

Free means free as in money. Not free as in essence. There is basically nothing in the system that gives you more essence to play with, and if it did that, it would be really broken.

Its a balance thing. Part of augmentation says you can get some/most bioware as geneware. The other half of the balance is so you can't use genetic heritage to start with, say, a synaptic booster 3 at no essence loss.

Okydoke...
[Be patient...]
[Be calm...]
[Be nice...]
[Head:Desk]

WTF!? That's the reasoning in the FAQ? do they not know what genetic heritage means? Or did they just forget what essence is?
"It is thus possible that children have inherited genetically-modified genes from one or both progenitors."
Is there some definition of essence now that means that I get 6 points if I'm born with black hair, 6 points if I'm born with one arm, 6 points if I'm born with friken rabbit ears and puppydog nipples, but only 5.8 points if I'm BORN WITH extra elastin. Is it even possible to be born with 5.8 points of Essence???!

I love this game until I try to play it. What ever. I don't want to derail a thread that's about to die anyhow.

thanks for all your help everyone, and thanks for the headsup on the FAQ

On numerous occasions the FAQ has proved unreliable, most recently with regard to Threading. The FAQ states that it's a special non-action, but the most recent errata (it's only a month or so old, IIRC) states that Threading is explicitly a Free action. The FAQ can be nice, because it's an attempt to deobfuscate the rules, but it's not RAW. Make sure that any ruling you pull from there will work at your table before actually using it.

Emphasis mine.

Come on. The faq was updated what, two years ago?
The errata two months?
Give them some time to get their shit straight.

Thats a bad finger to point at the faq for being contradictory about. The faq about specializations and splitting pools is a better one.

Other than that, agreement. A good deal of the FAQ is full of lies and outdated rulings for 4th edition that don't apply to 4A because the rules have changed since then (mystic adepts, looking at you). On a whole, the FAQ is useful, except for the places where it is flat out wrong.

Use it with a grain of salt.

The game balance point for Genetic Heritage combined with Transgenic Alteration is valid. I guess that's not my bitch. It's the "We would like to have this super powerful tech in our game without having it be a game changer" effect. If genetic manipulation shouldn't change the game then they shouldn't have writen it that way. I know this was the old fanpro crew. And I guess thats why it makes me even more sad.

I still can't open the cyber gear FAQ on the sr4 site. It goes to a; "We can't find that page" page. Even tho I can't read it I'll abide by the FAQ. Like it says in Udoshi's sig; I want to be able to slap the creation down and have not a single person who sees it be able to question even the smallest part.

I haven't been able to get the links to work, either. Instead, I just scroll down the page. Using the search feature of your browser can help find the part that you're looking for, such as "genetic heritage".

Sorry, Udoshi, I meant to write 'just pay the NUYEN'; I think I clarified that in my next post, but I forgot to actually change my error.

My point is that it'd be weird have a 'free infusion' Quality, when you could just… buy the infusion. Might as well have a 'free datajack' Quality.

Change the URL to Old.sr4.whatever. Stuff's still there, but all the links are broken.

IE http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/ or http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4a/sr4a_changes.pdf

Edit: .... also If you're running into the problem I thin you are running into, clicking the CYBERWARE FAQ just scrolls you down to the relevant section automatically. It doesn't actually open up a new page. The transition to the new site broke the link.
You can accomplish exactly the same thing by using the Search Function.

@Yerameyahu
Well, there are lot strange qualities in the book.

But hey, what is the fuzz.
Sometimes I think people are just a bit upset, because they can't abuse a the rules as they would like to.

I am very much under this impression, whenever it comes down to the FAQ. There are actually no real contradictions to RAW, because RAW is more then vague on most topics.
(And yes, nowhere in the book is mentioned, that "Specialisations" are dicepool modifiers...
Yeah, I know about the phrase everything which is not describet otherwise)
The problem here is, that there are a bunch of terms flying around in the book. Situational modifier, boni, skill-boni, skill modifier, attribute modifier, bonus dice and so on.
There is always mentioned something, which is not called "dice pool modifier".
(If you think of it, it is quite impossible to give a bonus in a text, without calling it something... The only exception would be modifications, which are only in tables. (And those are all dicepool modifier)
The point is people always go for the option the most benefitial for them... So whenever the rules are stated more clearly, there will be people crying about it.