Pretty self explanatory. I'm looking at my next Metamagic feat. I'm seriously considering getting a high powered ally. The fluff backstory would be an ally spirit who is an ancestor spirit (of some kind) with a smattering of modern languages/lore to be a bit more 'street savvy' (matching my character's persona). This also fits quite well with a LOT of my character's persona and resent, in game events.

Downside? It is going to cost a LOT of karma. I mean a LOT. Knowledge skills cost the same as Active Skills and I want to give this thing a few skills/powers. Am also seriously thinking of Invoking the sucker (and yes, that is legal by RAW).

So... has anyone done this? Built a huge, honking ally spirit? Is it worth it? I've seen Frank Trollman's thoughts on this and he suggests that it is, but you're going without spending any karma for quite some time and that can be a tough ride (I'm paraphrasing a bit but you get the idea). But I'd like a bit more info, differing perspectives, etc.

- J.

Ally spirits are awesome. The biggest - and this is a big one - thing they offer is unlimited services, including registered ones. No summoning, no drain, no binding materials - they are just on-call and really kick ass. You will also note they get one optional power per force instead of 1 per three.

Fun story. I had a shortlived (the game fell apart for OOC reasons and real life rearing its ugly head) psychic summoner/divination specialist who's spirits were patterned after elements and emotions of her own psyche.

Due to karmagen, and not wanting to make a ridiculously powerful monstrosity of a character - just a neat one - I ended up having gobs of karma left over, and ended up getting an ally spirit during creation. I had barely enough for two spirits, actually, at force 6. (It turns out if you're making a starving artist mysadept, you don't really need to spend a lot of points on money). One was a distillation of inspiration and creative essence, the other was more reason and logic, who halves of a whole.

I ended up running the trio as being nearly the same person - each with their own quirks and habits divergent of each other, despite being in constant contact with each other. (there's even a nifty metamagic that lets summoners see through the eyes of their spirits in one of the new books!)
They were going to use the runner name Graeae, for the greek crones who had to share an eye. The rest of the team was kind of baffled, and the free spirit(A samurai, who became a rollerskating ballerina package courier inspired by movies once free) on the team was kind of impressed and amused, and eventually figured out how she was doing it.


To answer your question, ally spirits are pretty awesome. If your gm is into it, they can really bring some life into a game. To help on the knowledge skills aspect, ask your GM if the spirit can benefit from Free Knowledge Skills. Due to force being used for both Int and Log, that should be enough for 6 knowledge skills at Force, which is enough to bring some life and character to the spirit.
I would suggest two guidelines while doing so: 1) No splitting those points - spirits get skills at Force, even knowledge skills. While that formula could let you get 12 skills at half force, keep with the fluff. 2) Your GM picks half of the knowledge skills to represent the NPC's growing interests - it IS a living entity, even if it must be loyal to you, and two players can often come up with something more interesting together.

I do not believe invoked ally spirits get great form powers, sadly. I recall reading about it in the faq or something. Might be worth looking into.

Interesting backstory you had there. Shame it didn't pan out

My character is a young Pueblo Coyote shaman dryad who roams the PCC on a bike, never really settling in one place. He's part face, part trickster, part street gangster/smuggler wannabe. He's got close ties to the Koshari and his home tribe and torn between the two worlds - embracing modern living and all that it encompasses, or clinging to the "old ways". I wanted to create an ally who represents aspects of his "street smart" persona and wanted an ally spirit to help "remind him of the old ways" from time to time and act as his guardian and protector (hence a sufficiently high force rating).

The metamagic you are referring to is Synesthesia and funny you should say that, I was thinking of getting that one for this exact purpose too... I already have Invoking and being a high charisma Dryad, he's the spirit specialist of the group. (so the idea was Invoking, Synesthesia and Ally Spirit, in whatever order).

I will push to ask the GM on getting Knowledges as per standard chargen but I touched on this previously and asked for a discount and he said no. So I don't think he's going to give me a free ride on this one. But he may go for the idea of picking some skills himself.

BTW, I am very cognisant that this could break game balance but the GM needs to be more worried about his brother playing a Voodoun combat houngan who has learned Centering and Invoking. I'm not looking to break the game in anyway.

- J.

One big thing that makes them good - unlimited Aid Sorcery.

Aye. My Summoning and Binding is decent but Sorcery skill group is only 3 I do not have Centering either.

- J.

I coulda sworn that there was an explicit prohibition on having multiple ally spirits at one time, but after going through the section on ally spirits on Street Magic, I can't find it.

Yes, I noticed that too and pointed that out to the GM. I think he may have fainted at the suggestion.

No, the real inhibitor is cost. Two Force 8 ally spirits without the extras is still 128 karma....

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. Get two Force 4s for cheaper, easier, same amount of dice on Aid rolls... interesting. But I'm pretty sure you can only add dice from the one source type. Would that even be legal?

- J.

Force 8 is a little excessive, IMO. Force 5 is much more reasonable, and still constitutes a heavy hitter. Arthur Garrett has a Force 5 ally (scroll all the way to the right) with plenty of powers for versatility, for a cost only 20% over the base cost of your Force 8.

Appreciate where you are coming from, but my question is not whether I should summon a Force 5 or Force 8, but rather "has anyone done it, and if so, what was your take away on it"? (E.g. was it too powerful and ruin the game, did you hate having to save up all that damn karma, did slowing your advancement relative to your fellow PCs put a damper on things, etc).

I see your point, I can do a Force 6 easily enough (GM has even said so) - but I have several ingame reasons for aiming high and my character doesn't believe in doing it by halves. He wants a guardian spirit, so that means something pretty beefy. Also, I have an Aspected Domain (recently acquired) which I can use to summon the critter at a minimum Force of 8 (+2 effective Magic rating). I also like the idea on making it a big "quest" (so to speak).

That said, IF others have tried this and can honestly say that it did limit their fun, I will happily downgrade the Force to something more sane.

cheers,

- J.

Aspected Domains do not work like this.

I thought I was going to get all smart and tell you off but arghhh you are correct.

For some reason I thought it worked both ways but upon closer inspection you're right. It downgrades your Magic if it is not aspected to you, but if it is aspected to you it only adds a dice pool modifer - it doesn't raise your Magic rating.

Well that blows. Although it also makes Filtering far more useful.

- J.

Sorry

Aspected domains are still PLENTY good, and also help with drain resistance.


That being said, Ally Spirits are amazing.
Just think of them as a spirit with three times the amount of optional powers, customizable skills and powers from all your types, and, oh yeah, they are Magicians too - This means they can Manifest as well as Materialize/Possess. And they come with Banishing resistance.

Basically they're voltron spirits.
they are -expensive-, but.....

A better question is, what about your mage? What kind of tradition are you, and what's your edge?

Regular shaman as defined in SR4A. I originally was looking at Voodoo or a Custom tradition but it felt too cheesy and I couldn't bring myself to do it (was going to go Posession route). We're playing in Denver so I felt a regular shaman out of the PCC was appropriate.

Edge currently 3 but probably have the karma to bump to a 4. I love my Edge. It isn't my dump stat.

- J.

The reason I ask about edge is because ally spirits get edge equal to their summoners, instead of Force.

This matters because they have banishing resistance.

What is ALSO worth noting is that Invoking is a Binding test. I'm not saying that you can use Banishing to strip away invoking, but rather, tecnically hits on Binding tests give a spirit more services.
Its something to bring up with your GM an figure out how you want to work it before someone tries to poof away your ally.

Obviously its in your best interests to make your ally as resistant to banishing as possible, and more edge is never a bad thing.

Mechanically, if he's going to try Banishing, he's going to realise what a useless skill it is. And he tries it without rolling dice, the players (collectively) will probably gun him down.

- J.

I would say no, based solely on that you cannot use extra dice from multiple foci on the same Test then you shouldn't be able to do so with Spirits. Whatever you decide, though, please bear in mind:


Also, have you seen my works?

EDIT: I got to use my Inhabitation technique in the link above with a F8 Ally Spirit on a Nosferatu mage. The results were very interesting. It should also be noted that the campaign (over a year) was completed basically after that was accomplished.

That is a delicious idea Neraph (and nasty) but remember, I'm not trying to break the game. Also I can't select Inhabitation for an Ally as I follow a tradition which uses Materialisation.

- J.

You actually could, those normal limits are off concerning ally spirits. It's not so easy, though, having a Inhabitation ally spirit merge into a flesh form. It has got a high Force attribute, after all.
I'm saving up for an Inhabitation ally spirit with Force 7 right now. This will likely take me a while... And I honestly think that it might impact the game in a way halfway as if a new character/NPC joined the group. Aside from that, it'll be fun

Ok... soooo....what happens if I get the Ally to Inhabit my body? I read Neraph's thread. My understanding is the summoner's soul is destroyed in the process, the spirit binds to the vessel and may/may not absorb the host's memories. So given that the summoner's soul is destroyed in the process, doesn't that mean that the Ally by default, becomes a Free Spirit? *scratches head*.

Hypothetically that is. I'd never try this in game. My GM is too evil.

Although, getting an Inhabitation ally of sufficient Force and getting it to possess the biggest, baddest mofo I can find is extremely tempting... (but I like the idea of it being able to appear out of nowhere via Materialisation way too cool...).

- J.

The key shenanigan, if I remember right, is getting an ally spirit with Endowment and Inhabitation to give YOU inhabitation, then you inhabit something. Don't do this, it is super gamebreaking.

We have access to the Koshari leader for Denver as an NPC. Or the Russian Vory head for the CAS sector. He's an utter prick in our campaign.

Hypothetically, we could just capture him, prepare him as a vessel and voilla...

- J.

Actually, This is one area in which you DO have the freedom to break the mold. Ally spirits aren't based on your tradition. You just get to pick the type it is when you make it.

Thanks for that. Also, I found the FAQ just before you posted it. Curse my luck...

On the subject of Invoking, the drain is only calculated at 50% more than the Force. That doesn't mean I need Force +50% higher rating binding materials, does it?

- J.

Nope... It is still a Force equal to what you bound. Invoking just supercharges it a bit.
We have a Character in game with a Force 5 Invoked Ally Spirit. It is interesting.

You're welcome. Man, I'm glad to see my research on this subject is paying off. I wanted to respond to this in more detail, though:



It actually reads as follows: During merging, the vessel's original spirit (if present) is consumed and for all intents and purposes that chracter is essentially lost (though, as always, gamemasters may decide otherwise if appropriate to their stories).

The last part is important. There's another paragaph SOMEWHERE in that book that suggests that a host spirit *may* merge with the inhabitation spirit, and not be entirely destroyed(gm's discretion), but fuck if I can find it in there.

My psychic summoner's endgame plan was actually to do exactly what you suggested as a form of escapism(some ugly life circumstances she did not want) and twisted psionic apotheosis. Her goal was to, somehow, save up enough karma/reagents/knowledge/magical lodge/time to summon up a max-force ally spirit(her idealized self), bind it, invoke it, and have it Inhabit herself.
If successfully pulled off, the character would basically become an NPC.
But given the nature of the spirit, where it came from, we thought it appropriate for the magician's spirit to live on, so to speak.
If its something you're considering, especially if your character is designing your spirit formula from scratch to do what they want, its an option you should really talk with your gm over. It kind of deals with vague soul things and metaplanes and behind-the-scenes setting mechanics that differs from game to game. That being said, there IS a small opening to have an Inhabitation spirit that ISNT a horrifying/steriotypical/malicious soul eating BUG inhabitation spirit. (also please note that free spirits can gain a unique power that really lets them break the molds: sm 107, its possible for a free spirit to learn to manifest, while retaining the possession it was born with.)

One thing I had toyed around with, for example, was a free spirit of Progress or Evolution: an inhabitation(maybe possession) spirit with the Greater Power of Hidden LIfe. Kind of like the Borg, they seek out exceptional individuals, and offer to join with them. They gain access to the spirit's resources and powers, and the spirit gets to add their distinctive awesomeness to their own.
The difference is that when the host dies, the spirit lives on because it has Hidden Life. It just isn't killed when it normally would be.
One other thing to consider is: Inhabitation spirits can learn to Project - it kind of makes sense that, say, if this spirit wasn't of a type that ate their hosts soul(Bug!), that they could voluntarily leave, and maybe return control every once in a while, if sufficiently motivated.

I suppose what I'm suggesting is the possibility that some inhabitations spirits are more like ghostly Goa-uld(from stargate). If they are of a type that doesn't necessarily consume their hosts soul to further the propogation of their own species, that it opens up a lot of freaky and intriguing possibilities when you are dealing with spirits that are not Bugs.

You're right, though - the spirit would probably go free. Rather, they would make the edge test for going free described in street magic. No matter who the character's personality ends up being, it is going to be an entirely new character.

I plan on researching the formula from scratch but yeah, from an RP viewpoint I dunno if he'd want to lose his own soul in the process, or have it transform into something else. He is very much an individualist. Materialisation was always the primary focus. Long story short, there is a very real situation my character will be singled out by Vory for a hit or capture for interrogation some time in the not too distant future. If so, I want to make sure if he is captured I can get something to come help bail me out. A honking high powered ally spirit seems like a good idea. Especially if I can pick up Synesthesia along the way as a metamagic power.

I find the whole ally-spirit-inhabiting-you prospect super interesting. Assuming the soul is NOT destroyed in the process, it would also make the bugs potentially "less" evil (and perhaps explain why Dunkelzahn never offered a bounty for bug shamans like he did toxics and blood shamans). Perhaps they are just part of the natural cycle of life then, rather than something twisted and wrong as we all assume.

Side note: Can a free spirit learn Inhabitation? I don't think so by RAW.

- J.

SM 107: Optional Powers can come from one of the following
blablabhal
One of these powers available to some spirits: astral gateway, aura masking, divining, essence drain(some restrictions apply), materialization, possession, realistic form.

So raw, no. But an inhabitation spirit could learn to possess.

Self inhabitation IS interesting, for sure - the other possibility is just that there are two kinds of inhabitation. One that eats your soul, and one that doesn't. I'm not sure which is worse - that bugs eat your soul, or that it doesn't, but makes you watch as you turn into something inhuman.

Either way, if your character is making an ally formula from scratch, they should have some sort of influence over it - but at the same time, the exact intricacies of how Inhabitation works is one of those big secrets in shadowrun that not a lot of people even have information on. Looking into such information could make for a fantastic astral or metaplane quest.

Damn... shame on not being able to learn Inhabitation Probably a good thing though...



What metaplane would that involve a journey to... ? I can only imagine...

- J.

My guess would be finding a spirit that has experience with Inhabitation. Perhaps a former ally spirit, or even asking dragons - even lesser ones - probably knows a thing or three about ally spirits, and also tend to know all sorts of secret draconic drek. Infosteals from magical research corps could be fruitful, too - the head of ares R&D is a bug, right?

I would think the metaplane of Death or Purgatory(augmentation 156) would be a good place to learn about Inhabitation, given the nature of it consuming the host. Especially if, as you mentioned, its more of a natural cycle of life and death that everyone assume is bad.
You know. The same plane used when making cyberzombies. It even mentions needing a spirit guide.

If you want to do that crap *at chargen*, though, you might as well just be a Free Spirit. What a mess.

Powering yourself up via Possession/Channeling is a much more… uh, traditional method of doing something quite similar.

Got a spirit guide I can use. Would present some interesting roleplaying options too.... heck, I might just do this to see what the GM does, even if I have no intention of creating an Inhabitation ally hahahaha.

- J.

That's why my Ally spirit thread is so long - there was quite the debate on whether or not it would work. I think that if you use Control Thoughts on the spirit as it merges with you you should be fine.

Interestingly, Ancient Knowledge, who was a freelance writer for Catalyst and a member of the forums here, was apparently pleased with my concept. He was working on another magic book when things got to the point where he quit and released his unfinished work for free. I present:



Sound familiar?

Yeah it does. Well beyond what I'm looking at.

I don't want to snap the game in half, but I'll happily dance and skirt the line of good taste as much as I can...

I'm very cognisant of ruining other players fun on this one.

- J.

OK my GM won't allow any optional rules on Free Spirits. If anything I'm going to get screwed worse. So I'm just going to stop hassling him, make a Force 8 Inhabitation spirit instead of Materialisation, give it a limited number of knowledges and call it a day. If I make the spirit a True Form merge, I can effectively make it a Materialisation spirit. Also, I can then save the Inhabitation power for when I REALLY want to do something nasty (like capture and inhabit a key NPC).

- J.

Out of curiosity, post creation, there is nothing by RAW that states an Ally cannot learn any other powers when you enhance it (see Enhancing an Ally in Street Magic)?

- J.

I like how a Force 8 Inhabitation Ally counts as 'stop hassling'.

Less emails/phone calls asking about whats permissible outside of the game?

- J.

Spirits can indeed learn additional powers after they have been created. You need to perform a Rritual of Change, and then pay the additional Karma for the powers/skills/spells/etc. bestowed. Note that increasing Force costs 16 karma instead of 8 with a Ritual of Change. All other Costs are the same.

Cool. So ANY spirit power is on the table then - not just the ones I can summon?

- J.

I do not think so. You can give them new powers from within the usual list of spirits you have access too.

A spirit that goes Free, however, is able to take almost any power they like.

I got a special pass giving my spirits Aura Masking because I had Masking and Extended Masking metamagics, and aura masking duplicates those effects, so sometimes there is room for the GM to let you bend the rules a little to do something cool

Yes but by RAW it doesn't say you *can't* - I am assuming that Free Spirit powers are off the table obviously.

It doesn't make huge sense to cap the power types anyway. Technomancers can spend an Immersion grade learning to create a Sprite that they couldn't previously. I don't see why magicians can't spend a grade learning to summon a spirit type they couldn't previous (I'd love to summon Plant and Guardian spirits) or go on a metaplanar quest to learn a new spirit power that they can imbue into their allies.

- J.

The why is pretty simple: cuz they can't. Feel free to house rule anything that's fun for your group, though.

Can you quote a page reference and a book title please to back that up?

- J.

In the Ally Section... Where you can only select powers available TO THE SPIRITS YOU CAN ACTUALLY SUMMON.
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Don't remember the page, though.

Oh... And Spirits are not Sprites; and Technomancers are not Magicians... Don't compare tham and you will be much happier.

I have re-read it and it says that is for ally creation, not enhancing. Nowhere does it state it can't be done.

Where is toturi when you need him?

- J.

If you cannot create it with it, then you cannot enhance it with it. They use the same rules, after all, with only one minor tweak after creation (FOrce costs 16 Karma per point after creation)

If you're going to start using the "if it doesn't I can't" standard, you might as well just stop and houserule anything you want. It's just faster.

My GM is being a tightfisted asshole on this one. RAW is all I have.

- J.

Hehe, so the solution is to assume RAW includes anything not disallowed? I'm just saying that there's an inherent disconnect there, not that you shouldn't do it. Hehe. Something along the lines of, 'Dad said a gun's too dangerous, so I'll stab him instead'.

I don't think I'm being anywhere as obstinate as other people on this board. I will discuss some ingame options with him and house rules that I think might be reasonable, but I think my GM secretly hates the idea, won't admit it and deliberately trying to steer me away. I am not easily deterred.

- J.