that would still be a disguise test, just to obscure your original appearance and not to impersonate someone (e.g. another form you can specialize in)

Either way, we understand that the numbers don't capture everything. Changing your physical appearance by whatever methods can be understood as *required* for the Disguise test itself; you can't just say, 'I roll disguise' and miraculously change.

Convincing people that you are female without any traces of a bust while showing a profound mustache is the pornomancers domain.

Discworld Dwarves come to mind.

Wait, shouldn't we then get bonus dice to con (seduction) just as well? Pornomancer would be happy

Speaking of it, would multiples stack?

I think that a Centaur with double Shiva arms (12 possible cyberlimbs altogether; lets go for bulk mod also) would be able to get hundreds of Cyberbreast implants quite easily.

you only get a DP bonus if the target likes big breasts -> +2 romantically attracted

For disguise, you should get the bonus every time when you go from flat to busty or the other way, because it changes your appearance

I think you're being silly, Xenefungus, but that's probably *why* there's no listed bonus. Tastes vary, context matters, etc. The mechanical bonus (or lack thereof) is simply not that important. It's about roleplaying.

Thats depends on what kind of table you got.
Mileage may vary.

Disguise test makes no sense what so ever, if the character is just changing the settings of their implants, thats is just a simple absolute change in the characters look.
After that you just use con to get the ones looking for you to believe your not you.

That's just a muddy area between the skills, Mäx; nothing can really be done about that. Technically, changing your appearance is the domain of Disguise. You could construe *anything* as Con if you rationalize hard enough, hehe.

well, in combination with fiber-optic hair, color-changing chlothing and altskin w/ shade&shifter mod it would be a disguise check.

Not to me.
I kinda think that character actually has to do something for there to be a test, as the test is for seeing how well a character succeeds in doing what she tries to do.
There just isn't really anything that the characters skill would affect when using those to change ones appearance, unless your trying to make yourself to look like some specific person .

Well, you're wrong, as far as the limited and imperfect rules available to us go. In an ideal game, perhaps there would be a distinction there. In SR4, all those chosen changes and tactics represent the skillful application of Disguise knowledge.

This is actually an interesting idea, a true transgender character who can pose as women or men at a whim - with functional parts, even, at least - at present - if he starts out as a woman. However, I'm thinking there is really no reason not to have cybergenitalia for women, too, even a uterus, as a medicinal implant to help conception or carrying to term, so basically you could take a neutered clone and turn it into anything you wish.

For the disguise deal some more cosmetic cyber or bioware would be needed to slightly change the frame and posture, and add or subtract a bit of shape in other places.

@Tehana, and I'm spoilering parts of this so that only people who really want to can read it:

You're probably right about the whole (dis)respect issue. However, railing against it in general on an internet forum - and this forum in particular - is of limited use - because you're surrounded by people who probably say about themselves "Of course I (don't dis-) respect women", the validity of which you are challenging. Also, they will accuse you of presenting us with your gut reaction as the female point of view.


What I think might work on this board is actually calling out individuals about individual statements: What were you thinking when you wrote that?

Check "False Front" in Augmentation, p.68, probably in combination with chameleon skin.

It used to be that way (well, at least the display of genitalia;) ). Until the time of the French Revolution men wore extremely tight trousers, made from the finest possible cloth to show their wealth. Before that men wore sometimes enormous codpieces, not as revealing but quite a testament to how men used to show off with their supposed endowment

Regarding the idea of changing such a fundamental aspect of oneself, I'd argue there are far more radical options. Take the Cyberskull for example, having one means you do not have a face any longer -- sure, it might look like your old self, but it remains nothing more than a shell which might as well look totally different. Or an Attention Coprocessor, there is a chip in you which literally tells your brain what to think about and what to ignore, how creepy is that?

Eyes. Windows to the Soul.
Squishy Parts. Out with them.
24/7 live action TV!

Yeah, having one's face ripped out and replaced will be a major thing for most people - just ask anyone who's had their face destroyed and reconstructed.

As for the sensitive issue of cybergenitalia...

Yes, many women out there would doubtless have a hard time replacing their breasts - for whatever reason. The fact remains, though, that there are also many women who would replace them, if it was cheaper and fairly riskfree, and didn't disrupt natural function. The ability to alter breast size at a whim, while not something the majority of women might choose, can be a very valuable ability in the world of shadowrunning though.

Many men are breast-fixated, and easily distracted by prominent breasts - this can serve as a distraction, as a way of hiding (fewer men would remember her face - sad but true), or as a way of getting a social edge over many men (they are more lilely to be embarrased, become lecherous, be distracted, etc). It can also be used to 'escape' warrants or pursuers - if people think they are looking for a woman with really big breasts, or a flatchested one, they are less likely to look closely at those who do not fit that description. This goes for men and women both.

That said, even today it is more or less 'norm' for women to 'use' their breasts (for lack of a better term, I know it sounds crude...) using padded bras, push-ups, flattening sports bras, and revealing necklines, bulky sweaters--even cleavage make-up (rarer, but it exists), to acheive certain effects. It is not really that big a step to 'use' breast implants that can change size, once you've accepted augmetations or if you already were planning to go for implants (for whatever reason)

Penile implants aren't quite as versatile, though every bit as sensitive a concept to many men as breasts implants are to many women. Few guys I know would choose to have it 'chopped off' just to gain a few inches.

As for fixation...there are many people out there, of all genders and all sexual orientations, who have fixations over breast size and penis size. Granted, men in general are more fixated on size regarding both - but I have known many women, gays, lesbians and even a few transgendered with similar fixations, and/or immature sense of humor regarding genitals.

I do think all of the genital augmentations have a very real and solid place in SR, though - the SR world is more open when it comes to sex, and more fixated on it - for good and often for bad. Mutilating and rebuilding your genitals is an excellent concept for the dark, dystopian cyberpunk future that is shadowrun, where humanity is a commodity to be sacrificed for a small edge or reputation.

If nothing else, on the really sleezy/disturbing end, there'll be a demand for those implants for bunraku puppets and joytoys, to allow for further customization for the preference of the customer, and the consent of the puppet or joytoy isn't something the syndicates who would do such things loose much sleep over. So, on that level, these implants do have a place in the setting, if, albeit a very uncomfortable one.

Heck, of the characters in my game, I can't think of any that have gotten these implants voluntarily; all of them are former bunraku puppets rescued by one of my more hooding-happy PCs; I ended up creating "Bunraku Standard" and "Bunraku Deluxe" cyberware suites when I realized that all of these puppets had pretty much the same cyberware, and those savings in cost would be something the syndicates would want... and then also made selling the cyber after freeing the puppets a much more risky--and morally dubious--proposition, which also felt appropriate for the setting.

As i said further upthread, i'd get one.
Not because of size, 2 hands width is quite enough, thank you very much, but because of control mostly.

Personally, I still think there should be a cyber-vagina on the cosmetic cyberware chart alongside the cyber-penis. I suppose there's any number of reasons it wasn't introduced when the cyber-penis was, or the decades since then, but I can't think of any particularly good ones.

Hell, toss in a cyber-anus, too. Why? I don't know! Why not!

(The most compelling answer would be: if your character is of the 'was a ruined burnt husk of a human torso' bent and got rebuilt with cybertorso included, rebuilt cyber-genitalia is quite in-character to want')

@Eimi: Agreed. And I'd include those for the same Essence costs and Availabilities as the other cyber, and with that, be able to stat a truly transgendered character. (Betan hermaphrodites, anyone? Bel Thorne would make for an excellent runner... and I've already statted out an SR4 Admiral Naismith, just for the lolz...)

Don't forget you're talking about cyber, though. It's all fake; get bioware if you want real parts.

Its alot cheaper too.
Breast/Penile implant : 3.000Y
Minor Biomod : 100-2.000Y
Perfetly fully working, no drawbacks and 100% organic if this is what you want.

Btw sex change is 20.000Y and you are fully functionable and 100% real. Former men would even be able to carry children if you throw in a genefix too.
Just to show how advanced the medical possibilites in SR are.
And it goes the other way round.

Right. So, getting cyber is an actual choice, and in many ways an inferior one. That makes it easier for us to speculate about the actual customers for it.

Like I suggested up thread: I bet the primary customer for cyberbreasts (by units purchased) are syndicates implanting their bunraku puppets and joytoys. It's cheaper, it's "real enough", and when a puppet dies or retires, they can pull the 'ware and implant it in a new puppet.

Wait, women don't judge men based on penis size? Excuse me while I go laugh my ass off.

Okay, I'm done now. While men are frequently crude and make obscene remarks about a woman's breasts, and we love to gawk at particularly impressive specimens, I've never known any guy to reject an otherwise attractive woman because her breasts were too small. On the other hand, plenty of women I know have broken up with guys because their package wasn't up to snuff. One woman wouldn't even date a guy if he wasn't packing at least seven inches. Hell, penis discrimination actually makes more sense than breast discrimination since it's directly correlated with sexual pleasure for some women, whereas a large rack is pretty much just for show.

Let's face it. Being a woman sucks. Being a man sucks. Doesn't matter what you look like or who you are, someone somewhere is gonna discriminate against you for some reason. Suck it up and move along, life is too short. And if you can't, get an implant.

@tehana

Sorry if the base frat-boy jocularity of this thread offended you, some of these lads (myself included) don't get out enough. As to the slang involved, I am afraid that sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth, especially on internet forums. I for one am not a fan of political correctness (I believe it reinforces rather than reduces prejudice), and I am afraid I tend to sling a lot of slang for both female and male genetalia on the rare occasions I enter into discussion on either.

However, despite the tone of some of the comments I will also point out there were some legitimate points of discussion (cyber breasts *costing* not adding 2 capacity, whether the ability to alter breast size should aid Disguise tests etc).

It was brave of you to let us know you took offence at some of the comments, I am sure I can speak for all here when I say no hard feelings.

And before any wag jumps in, pun not intended.

Life sucks. Life sucks even worse in Shadowrun, but who cares, there's Porn BTLs that's better than cyberbreasts anyhow!

Odd, I just realized that the vagina implant only exists in the German book while the original Augmentation indeed only has the male variety. For those interested in getting one, same stats as the penis.

What would a retractable Cyber-Penis cost in terms of and essence?

3000Y in Standard quality 0.25 Essence or 1 Capacity avail 5.

The standard implant from augmentation is NOT retractable ....

Because this Thread would not be complete without it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4

Yeah, those choosing to get cyber-versions would do so based on the extra possibilities that infers - changeable breast size; erection/ejaculation control; sensitivity controls; enhancements; less worry about wear and tear...

'Normal' people looking for a bit of a boost would likely go the bioware route, whereas cyber is more for the freaks or those with special uses in mind.


...and yes, men ARE judged by penis size by many women. However, they aren't judged by every other person they meet on the street, whereas women face breast-size related reactions many times a day.

That said, it is in my experience more common for men to be discriminated on size in the bedroom than for women. So, women are discriminated against in daily life, and men are discriminated against in private situations where they are the most vulnerable. Both suck royally, and men and women both should learn to treat each other with a little more respect...

Where is this written?

Nowhere.
But it's also nowhere written that a Troll can't fly . .

On the other hand: retractable/in/deflateable is, basically, the normal modus operandi of the original equipment . .

First off, I think everyone here could do with a good read of this article. I was trying to get Tehana to link to it all of yesterday's conversation.

A lot of you are going, "hurr hurr, breasts, genitals, stop being silly woman, we're just talking about a game / being funny males to each other" and, well, I want to say that that's fine, but I also want you to realize that doing so kind of excludes people that might not feel comfortable with that kind of discussion - like Tehana. I want to thank the couple of you that have actually apologized and encouraged her to continue posting on this subject; I like seeing when geek guys realize that there are other folks on this board that ain't them. I have a feeling that we have far more lurkers on this board - and a fair number of them of the fairer sex - and I'd like to encourage them to come out and speak about this, and not feel minimized because The Guys are having a discussion.

(This is where I was coming from beforehand when I said, "and we wonder why we can't get more girls into the hobby.")

I'm not asking you to change your opinions out of hand, I'm just trying to get you to realize that what you're saying can make people uncomfortable. Dig?

On the subject at hand, regarding females and augmentation and transfolk and such:

Your genitals, whether or not you realize it, is part of your gender identity. I don't mean your physical sex; I mean the part of your brain that says, "I am X." Talk to a transfolk at some point about how they feel in their bodies, especially if they're pre-op; you'll get all sorts of interesting discussion. I've known some FtMs that bind their breasts down, or MtF that wear chicken cutlets and crotch shapers.

Outside of pure, raw, physical numbers, augmentation, whether cyber or not, is a Big Deal Decision. A character might not think about lopping off their genitals and replacing them with cold hard steel, but I can imagine that there are just as many that it would be a lot of thinking and debating. It ends up becoming part of their gender identity, honestly like any other augmentation, I realize, but there is something special mentally about getting your genitals augmented.

I will again come out with my position that the cosmetic surgery, augmentation, and trans discussion in Augmentation was a welcome thing, and I honestly salute whoever wrote that section. I'm not trans myself (but as Tehana noted, we have friends and close family members that are) and it's good to see something in this hobby that's inclusive, not exclusive.

One final note - as I book it out the door to work - the folks saying that men have it just as hard as women for discrimination blah blah blah? Men aren't the ones that are getting begged online for pictures of their breasts, or coerced into taking naked cell phone pictures for their SOs, or feel uncomfortable going to conventions because of the creepy attention they get, or basically, being the constant center of attention for men. Yeah, women joke about men's penis size - but guys are the ones that are eager to get a woman's clothes off and rate them against whatever fantasy they have in their heads. I'm not saying it's exclusive to them, but you really do need to think about these things.

And with that, I'm late for work....

repeats: we do?

Well, i meant truly retractable, not just inflateable - the description only mentions altering the size and erectiopn/ejaculation control.

Ok, all these things happen - we as men do them. However, you also have to feel for those nerds who don't get out much except for conventions. Look, it's hard, too, for these people, and if the only women they see regularly happen to be acting in porn movies, what do you expect? So now they see a girl gamer, and they feel empowered because they are on their own turf, and they do things which can come over as creepy.
It's also really hard to avoid, sometimes: For example I went to a LARP once where there was this girl who had a totally awesome succubus costume. And that was just so damn hot, you couldn't stop looking. It wasn't even skimpy at all, there wasn't any cleavage, no short skirt or anything, she was wearing tights and leather armour, it was just very well made and she acted the part. (Including jumping on people and "biting" their throats, and fast, it was positively scary.) So would I be wrong in giving her my attention? I didn't hit on her, or anything, after all, we were all in character all the time, and the only appropriate IC reaction was being scared. But a socially challenged guy might try and then not know where to stop. And then your problems start.

So that being said, I have with some effort convinced my girlfriend to play SR with me, and she half-enthusiastically goes along with it. YES, her character has cyberware breast implants, as she's playing an ex-hooker single mom sam/face who runs in order to give her son the perception that they're middle class. And one of things she was most enthusiastic about was protecting other hookers when the other characters talked about things like hiring hookers to seduce people and then killing them to get rid of evidence. Now that's insensitive of them, right? It led me to believe that SR as a game breeds harsh social darwinism, as people at the very bottom of the food chain generally get little respect, and little consideration.

Anyway... as a powergamer I should never put breast-implants in a character because they have no mechanical benefit, and breast size is fluff.

lot of that article and comments just confuse me.
Especially lines like this:
"The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between"
But i have admit that maybe i just play wrong kind of games(ie, the kind where you often choose the gender of your character and thus characters of both gender are just as competent)
Or the assumption that only women find the outfits of many females characters in games/comics/movies riduculous, but really what can one do about that, stop playing/reading/watching?

Coerced might be too strong a word, but I've been.

Been to some places in China where Westerners are what all girls are lusting after (and no, it's not just about getter papers/money), done that. (Though I probably lived it completely differently from the way a woman who lives it everyday in her environment does).

But I agree that women are more victim of sexism than men...
And I think that Tim Minchin expresses the way I feel better than me.

I was trying to figure out what any of the general status of men and women had to do with tehana's specific reaction to this specific thread, but apparently I was being a bad person by asking questions. I still basically agree with everything said about the general issue (e.g., ravensmuse's post), but I'm still wondering what the relevance is.

...

After some time for homogenization I think I can better summarize my feelings on the subject.

I do have the choice to get offended, I did choose this, I take responsibility for that. I hold the option and I chose to. That said, I found the overall discussion of this to be offensive due to the disassociation of emotion with an intimate body part. I am a female, and have feelings on my gender and sexuality that have been effected by men. My experiences in the Role Playing hobby have also formed these feelings. It can be very difficult to be a female in this hobby that is often dominated by men. Sexualization is something I've experienced at nearly ever interaction I've had in this hobby and it does get pretty old after awhile. I would say that my experiences aren't unique among my female geek friends. It's very commonplace to become a sexual object in a group of men, whether it be a geek community or not, but it does not make it any less exhausting.

My original point was that there is a great deal linked between genitals and sexuality as well as femininity. From a female perspective I feel that it will be a rarity for someone to make the choice to remove their breasts in favor of cyber breasts. I am positive that there are women that are not connected to their genitalia and would make this choice, but I still feel that in many cases it would not be a choice made lightly. I simply felt that the discussion was lacking in respect and gravity for the topic. That's simply my perspective on this subject, you don't have to agree, I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to.

On the point of transgendered folk, I wanted to share a couple interviews of a model I've grown very interested by. Lea T. She's a Brazilian model that grew up in Italy and was good friends with Riccardo Tisci. After he came to Givenchy (A very influential design house) he asked his friend Lea to be in a campaign for him. The catch? She's transgendered and it has caused quite the stir. She's quickly become one of the most desirable, talked about and prolific models in recent history.

I've found her interviews to be some of the most candid and introspective on the subject of gender identity disorder. I think her candid discussion of her genitals and the connection she has to them is very appropriate to the subject at hand.

This first interview is from Oprah. I know, Oprah. But the first few minutes are very good as is the last minute or so if you don't feel like watching the entire thing.

This second interview is better, but unless you are familiar with a Latin based language you might have issues understanding. Her accent is very thick. But it's good if you want to give it a try, her discussion on the issues she faces as a transgendered woman are heartbreaking to say the least.

Either way, I'm glad this discussion is at least happening, even if everyone isn't agreeing, because at the very least it's being discussed.

Just for the record, some of her beliefs are controversial at best and outright rejected as being harmful to members of the trans community at worst. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, but she is by no means an authority or speaking for all (or even close to a majority) of trans women.

(Just to get that disclaimer out there.)

I was unaware. I'd love to read more if you have a link or two or would like to elaborate.

I was simply posting her interviews because I felt her opinion and experience was relevant to the discussion. I didn't want to imply that I felt she was the voice for the TG/TS community. She has a right to be what she wants to be, just like everybody else. I don't know, I'm not part of the trans community beyond close friends and family but I didn't know that it was such a black and white issue where an individual wouldn't be accepted because of their experiences.

I'm not really up for elaboration, to be honest. And I'm not saying SHE isn't accepted, merely that some of her opinions and views on what 'makes' trans people trans, or their mental health status as a result thereof, and soforth, are not so readily or widely accepted. She's welcome and free to her opinions and beliefs without ever risking being accepted by the trans community; being on such a widely viewed public platform as, say, going on Oprah and expressing some of those opinions and beliefs to the not-so-informed viewing public as what seems like fact is where things get slightly more contentious (but still limited to 'she is not an expert on these matters' rather than 'she is not trans').

It's tricky. And this is far too much digression for dumpshock. I'll simply state that I personally haven't/wouldn't have any of my characters have any of the breast/genitalia cyber-replacements or exotic biosculptings without very good reasons, because they will have some profound impacts upon said characters. But I still think they should be available, and are viable character choices.