And here I fail to see the second page of the thread.

Hello dead horse, nice to beat you some more.

...not if cast on the physical plane...
Because if invisibility can "bleed through", why can't a manaball in the other direction?

It was quoted upthread but it seems worth reiterating: SR4 BBB, pg 201. "Though mana-based illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test. Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras." (Emphasis mine and probably some other people's.)

Another way to look at it, what is the effect of an Invisibility spell on a blind person? There isn't one, because they're not seeing something they already can't see. But blind mages can assense just fine, because assensing has nothing to do with the visual capabilities. Invisibility on the astral plane is fooling a sense that doesn't exist there.

As for the creation of a specific spell that fools assensing-- I wouldn't allow it in my game but it's fairly low on the list of things I care about. This is less about game balance and more about how I see (no pun) the world of SR working. The Astral Plane is a place where things appear as they are. Even Masking can't make things disappear, it can only alter them.

Because you don't properly understand how dual natured objects and people interact with both planes at once, I think, is what it is.

IE: manaballs WILL affect all dual-natured people in the area of affect.

Astral mage casts a manaball on astral? Hell yeah those ghouls in meatspace are getting hit by it.

It works for the same reason a mage can turn on astral perception(not projection) and immediately start manabolting spirits.


Grounding was removed in 4th because it was problematic, but your perception of the 'seperate planes' as, well, seperate is kind of not right. The physical and astral are two layers of the exact same existance - what you see in the astral is the same as in meat, just really gray and faded. There IS overlap in certain specific cases within the system that ISNT based on grounding - that is, third editions ability for astral spells to follow the path that a magical link like an active foci presented to erupt into the physical realm when it shouldn't normally be possible.

Which skips the point that Invisibility fools the visual sense and assensing (basically, looking on the astral plane) is explicitly not visual.

@Udoshi
Now you may tell me where in the name of hell we said, that the guy checking your invisibility is dual natured?

It's already there, in Digital Grimoire. Manascape (the area version) fools assensing and all manner of magical senses, but it can not create new auras - only alter existing ones.

Are you saying that if you cast Invisibility on yourself that it doesn't work?
And then turn on astral perception to check for astral threats, and it stops working?

All those sneaking past spirit examples people bring up with wondering whether invis works against them? Yeah. Spirits are dual natured, buddy.

But, basically, like I said, I don't think you properly understand the interaction between the planes and spell targeting - and I think you are under the impression that Invisibility stops working when the mage it is cast on looks around on astral for a moment.

Quote your sources with a page #, please. If you can back this up, I really want to see it.

Incidentally, I say that spirits have only astral sense unless they gain a physical sense from another source (Enhanced Sense: X). So they're not really dual-natured for these purposes. The RAW only partially supports this (obviously cool) theory, though.

It does not stop working but is still only conceals you on the physical plane. The aura of the spell also remains unchanged and detectable on the astral plane.

Materialized spirits are dual-natured. No, invisibility would not work against them. They can use astral perception to locate you. Sneaking i.e. using infiltration would work, though.

@Yerameyahu: That is a houserule. If spirits did not have physical senses how would they use Perception, which all spirits get at F? Also the description of dual-natured (as critter power) tells us that such creatures perceive both planes at the same time.

@Udoshi
Streetmagic page 160, black box



I did not say that. The point is: Invisibility cast on the physical plane can't have an effect on the astral plane. Simple as that. This means it makes you invisible on the physical plane, but not on the astral one.

The question is, would it work on the astral plane at all. Thats something different. But due to the rules of illusion spells, it seems unlikely.

I know, Dakka Dakka, that's why I clearly mentioned it as such. Perception is exactly what I meant when I said the RAW doesn't fully support it, as well. On the other hand, we know spirits don't see like humans (or even metahumans) do. Dual-perception is hardly the definition of dual-natured, though; what matters is 'present and active' on both at once.

As a critter power it actually is part of the definition:
It only gets weird when Street Magic (I think that's where it was) tells us that Spirits are unable to perceive the photons coming from a TV screen Sound form a TV is no problem however.

That's a description, not a definition. I'd read that as saying they use what senses they *have*, not that dual-natured means you necessarily have all those senses. There's something fundamentally different from a basically physical critter who has dual-natured access to astral (inc. astral-perceiving mages), and a basically astral critter (spirit) who can gain physical presence.

Agreed, which is why I prefer my funny system. Makes no sense that they can hear and not see, etc.

@Dakka Dakka
It is Runners Companion

I still can't tell for sure what the author actually wanted to say...

He wanted to say: NO SPIRITS ON THE MATRIX !!!!!!!!!1111111oneoneeleven

Well, actually sprits can still use the matrix...
They just need some work arounds.

It is some of those rules, which just make thing more complicated than they would need to be.
Give spirits only astral perception and everybody knows what they can or can't see.
With this, it is a guessing game.

No simsense is an awnser but they see like normal people but not quite...

Right, Astral Perception + 'Enhanced Sense' Powers. As if spirits can't stand a minor nerf.

This is more than a minor nerf. Without physical perception a spirit:
- can never read or perceive pictures
- cannot identify anyone the magician names unless both score 2 or more hits on an assensing test.
- has no understanding of color
- cannot locate shots or other sounds
- cannot identify smells
- is unlikely to understand a magician's orders unless the magician uses his astral impressions of the world to word his orders.
- will still have problems with those orders as astral impressions are very personal and can differ widely from person to person.

Yup. That's why it's great. There's no reason a non-Enhanced spirit should understand any of those things (color, smell), plus there's a certain amount of 'summoner telepathy' assumed ('kill him'). No more free ride! Hehe.

It's either that, or you have to delete all that random 'can't read things' crap, *and* give spirits the complete human suite of senses.

Which is okay, in my book. After all, Buttercup reads Comic Books.

You know what can work for hiding on the astral?

Hiding in a box.






-jason

Just for the record:
What is the opinion on what spirits see?
Really only astral?
Can you bypass it with the "enhanced sense" powers?

I guess it makes sense and it would explain why they have problem with projected pictures.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
So she would have low-light vision.

I am ok with everything. Just glad that there is an interpretation which finally works.

@Dakka Dakka
At least it fits the fluff. I remember one book about a negamage and spirits where not able to see him, because he had no "aura". So the summoner was unable to tell the spirt to kill him. "Kill who?" Well, they are from another plane, probably without light and sound. So why should they persive it. (Freespirits can if they take the qualities)

That, and I know street magic has a few fluff/story pieces about spirits being interviewed = they clearly have the capability to understand the spoken language, and I know that isn't covered by assensing.

They will have problems with any picture. Also if the spirits kind of being dual-natured differs from the rest it should be mentioned somewhere, like in the weaknesses section with reduced [all 5 normal senses]

It creates at least as many problems as it solves. How can spirits perform a search (one of their powers) if you cannot give them a description? Mental image =/= recognizable astral impression (2 hits on assensing test)

Novels are not canon. While this book was enjoyable, the whole concept of a negamage does not fit the setting. Where is the quality that grants normal senses? Enhanced [Sense] explicitly excludes human senses.

The other thing is, it has never been proven whether summoned spirits are separate entities which are temporarily brought to the astral and physical plane or whether they are constructs of the magician's mind. If the latter is true there is no problem granting them familiarity with the physical plane.

I agree that the rules and the fluff are contradictory (within themselves and with each other). I never said this idea was in the rules (or the fluff, though fluff is always meaningless). I said that it would be an interesting change, and that it's suggested by some of the contradictory information we have.

You have to pick one side and then alter the rules to make it workable. Neither side works with the RAW, and which is 'better' is an opinion.

Personally, I'm fine with spirits having no physical senses. Yes, it's a huge problem—good. You might also have to allow certain levels of summoner telepathy, etc. Of course, if you don't agree, you just add a rule that says they get all normal human senses, and delete everything about "they can't read screens"—enjoy your magic summoned animals. One, or the other.

I'm with Yerameyahu on this one.

We know spirits are limited in their 'normal' senses, and taking that to it's full conclusion of them not having standard senses may be a good way of enforcing some limitations on what is probably one of the most powerful 'tools' in the rulebooks...

Plus, it adds LOTS of interesting roleplaying potential.

I've already been doing that for years. I read that section about spirits not having normal senses, laughed my head off, and promptly wrote up a house rule abolishing it to the dustbin of gaming, where it rightly belongs. I mean, really, they can see me waving around a flashlight, but see nothing when they look at a TV screen? They can hear me shouting at them, but can't hear music from a speaker? Rule of Common Sense comes into play real quick here and such nonsensical rules are quickly ignored. The author was obviously smoking crack, a house rule fix is now in place, and moving on with the game. All of this discussion here over a whole lot of nothing. Rarely have I seen hairs split so finely.

If spirits didn't have normal senses, they'd be useless in the physical world, to they point where you might as well just not include them in the game. But they are there, and I for one am fond of them, so with a quick application of some basic sense, there is no problem. Sheesh.

It works either way, you just have to pick one. Astral Sense is very handy; they'd hardly be useless. Some tweaks would be required, but some tweaks are required for your chosen version.

Yes and Yes should have. But anyway, they left out a lot of this kind of information. Spirits would have a very long list of immunities...


Well, not.

It does not exist. The point is there are two things which are definitly RAW.
1. Spirits do not have "normal" senses. (Normal senses would have not problem percieving light, no matter where it comes from)
2. Spirits have astral vision.

So do spirits have senses with to some extend mimic the way human senses work? Nothing said about this.

Further it does not matter if the senses are "augmented or enhanced". Low-light vision has no drawback over normal vision.

Still, there is no need.

This.

Spirits, according to the fluff, are from the metaplanes and have an imperfect understanding of the physical world. Free Spirits are a bit of an exception in that they are spirits that are curious about the physical world and have chosen to hang around rather than return to their metaplane, and I would imagine the longer they are around the material plane the more they will understand about its strange ways.

I agree with Yerameyahu that a GM should assume some kind of mental telepathy between summoner and spirit (so bone-headed conversations like "Kill him!" ... "Kill who?" ... "That troll with the LMG!" ... "What's a LMG?" don't take place), but yeah, the GM using a spirit's imperfect understanding of the world to limit the win of the insta-genie tool is fine by me.

QFT.

- J.

Maybe they should have all sorts of immunities besides ItNW, but by RAW they have not. Whether that is intentional is anyone's guess.

No, RAW is that they become once materialized dual-natured creatures. Those perceive both planes at the same time. If spirits did not have physical senses, they could not do that. Such an exception would have to be mentioned. While there is the stupid exception of not seeing photons coming from tv screens, the Runner's Companion also explicitly says that PC Free Spirits perceive both planes at the same time:So RAW for PC Free Spirits is that they perceive all physical stimuli except "simsense, electronic projections on screens, or AR displays". AFAIK neither of those rules apply to NPC Free Spirits and summoned spirits who are just dual-natured.

Not so sure about that. Low-light vision "allows the user to see normally in light levels as low as starlight." Without normal sight that is still seeing nothing.

@Midas: Imperfect understanding implies some kind of understanding. How can anyone understand even imperfectly something he cannot even perceive? Misunderstandings can and will even happen between people how should be able to perceive the same things

@Dakka Dakka
Let go through it:

This actually just tells us that they get the senses of dual natured beeings. So what senses do they get?
Lets look it up.


So, no it does not give you any other form of perception except astral.


Thats a typical drawback of astral vision. And there is no kind of vision in the book, having the same drawback...


Again, it does not point to neither side.


Not really. Visions work as a stand alone.


I do not know, but the whole text seems like the author did not want to contradict any existing rules. But there are no rules, as far as I know.

Hey Irion... It is very hard to make a PERCEPTION roll without normal senses. Guess what... Spirits can make normal Perception rolls, as quoted by you (and several others). Ergo, they have normal senses.

Already addressed that, TJ: the rules are contradictory, not working with either position.

But I do not see that. If they can (by canon) make a perception Test, then they MUST have Normal senses. Just because they cannot see AR, Screens or what have you, does not mean that they cannot otherwise perceive normally. It is a specific case of their normal senses not functioning for a very specific set of things. Why does that cause problems?

It does not need a logical explanation for that. They perceive normally (as well as Astrally), while materialized, in all cases except the ones specifically called out.

Exactly, magic does not follow logic or physics. The rules give us spirits can perceive normally, but they cannot perceive projections from screens, simsense etc. It sounds illogical, but it still works. It's somewhat like the Energy/[Element] Aura not interacting with the recipient the floor he walks on. The explanation is: It's magic. (Too bad, I can't find the appropriate comic at the moment.)

This seems a bit far afield from the issue of the Invisibility spell and the Astral Plane, but I think it's an interesting conversation. Would someone like to make the case for spirits having no normal senses in another thread, maybe?

It's been done before, of course, so searching would be the easiest.

My understanding is that the Perception skill can be used to perceive on the astral plane as well as/instead of Assensing. Assensing is something different, it is basically an "analyze"-type skill for auras and astral stuff (although it can also be used in lieu of Perception on the astral).

The not being able to decipher computer screens (as things are viewed from the astral) implies that spirits and free spirits do not have "normal" senses, although I would be fine allowing a materializing spirit to acquire normal senses as a spirit power.

Masking wouldn't help. Even w/Extended.

It only hides the spell and changes the aura. There is still a visible aura. Masking is camouflage at best and not invisibility. It can help to say blend into a crowded astral environment but if the environment is clear (say around the perimeter of a magical-security conscious complex) the astral observers (watchers, mages) would still see something on the astral.

You are wrong there:So there is no more separate aura. The metamagic technique incorporates the spell's aura into the target's aura and the spell itself hides the remaining aura.

Debatable. The spell is NOT PART of the aura. If it would be a part of the aura, you could pass through wards. (Wards do not block auras)
So it is only hidden in the aura. But if you make the aura invisible, there is nothing for the spell to hide in...

You are thinking about the mechanics of improved invisibility. The metamagic technique makes the spell appear as part of the target's aura. The spell causes the observer to ignore said aura.

@Dakka Dakka
True, which does not change anything. Think of it like a leaf on wich an insect is hiding. What happens as soon as you "ignore" the leaf?

You forget the extended masking. It makes you think the insect is part of the leaf.

As Gerzel says, it *is* a twisted, funny kind of co-dependency. If Extended Masking 'hides' the spell in the aura, then that's hard to do if there's no aura visible to hide it in. You can't not see 'normal fluctations' when they're happening in nothing. The invisibility trick requires that E.Masking somehow mystically 'merges' the spell into their aura.

All three, Masking, Extended masking and an astral "ignore me" spell do the same thing. They cause the observers to ignore astral stimuli. Masking maskes them ignore for example that the magician is awakened, extended masking makes the target ignore spells and foci, and the spell makes them ignore the aura of the target.

Is that the case? Your quote doesn't imply that. It seems more like the 'camouflaged' interpretation. IIRC, descriptions of the other effects you mention are similar. In fact, you'd expect the hypothetical spell to be fundamentally different: 'ignore me' is a mind-altering illusion effect (affecting each observer), while Masking seems more intrinsic to the person (affecting their appearance directly). Are there more quotes to help with this?