Dumpshock Forums > Safehouses out now--new PDF product

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 01:39 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2013, 07:36 PM)

Because Netcat was both a woman and a designated repressed minority we were to sympathise with.

Also, Clockwork is Slavic, equals Russian, equals evil.

I thought he was middle eastern. I know hobgoblins are and I think I read some bit about him complaining when the troops came into his village to kill hobgoblins?

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 01:48 AM

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 05:34 AM)

Technomancers and Otaku are not the same thing, first and foremost. Even if that was a valid equivalency, that's a hilariously invalid argument - I cannot conceive of the possibility that you don't realize that.

Except they are, as evidenced by otaku becoming technomancers.
And nope, I fail to see the invalidity of my argument: otaku did capture and torture (experiment, if you will) a bunch of civilians, with a thick sauce of otaku supremacy poured over the whole ordeal. It's a well-known fact. And yeah, in my book, that does mean that people like Puck have it coming, and if a megacorp wishes to visit upon them what they visited upon others, I see no reason to take issue with that.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 01:52 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 09:48 PM)

Except they are, as evidenced by otaku becoming technomancers.
And nope, I fail to see the invalidity of my argument: otaku did capture and torture (experiment, if you will) a bunch of civilians, with a thick sauce of otaku supremacy poured over the whole ordeal. It's a well-known fact. And yeah, in my book, that does mean that people like Puck have it coming, and if a megacorp wishes to visit upon them what they visited upon others, I see no reason to take issue with that.

Yes, because the actions of a dangerous few (who were being controlled by an overpowering artificial intelligence) totally justifies Netcat (who was not only not part of those experiments, but was still a child at the time they took place) and her infant daughter being sliced up by fucking Aztechnology.

Frankly, selling anybody out to AZT should get you shot in the Shadows. No matter what they did, they don't deserve that. A bullet to the head, left facedown in a ghoul den or a ditch in Puyallup or in pig farm feeding trough, maybe. Sure. Sometimes a guy just needs to be geeked.

But sold to Aztechnology? No. Nobody deserves that.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 01:58 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 05:55 PM)

I fail to see the big issue with Clockwork. He sold Netcat out to AZT? So what, runners sell each other out all the time. You can be sure the rivals like Mika and Mafan did this to each other, for example; and shadowtalk in the previous editions is full of it.
How can this even be compared to being a willing accomplice in a mass murder, like Puck was?

The Issue with Clockwork isn't just that he's an asshole.

The Jackpointers aren't "ALL" Shadowrunners. They're hand picked shadowrunners that had to be researched and verified by Fastjack to be brought onto Jackpoint. They're there for common cause, to spread information among trusted (Well as much as you can trust) Shadowrunners, for the betterment of their own little club. It's a small group of comrades (if not 'friends') That have banded together for mutual support and to make more money together, sharing information among themselves.

I.E. they're not just 'any runner' you meet on the street. Or in a runner bar or something. They're loosely affiliated, and 'vetted' for their skillsets.

What Clockwork did, juuuust skimmed by the rules of Jackpoint. He found out Netcat was a Technomancer, and wanted to kill her due to his bigotry. (Made all the worse that he was a hobgoblin and the bigotry they face in their 'homelands'.) So due to bigotry he tried to sell her out to the corps, to a fate he knew would mean vivisection and such. Because it would be a betrayal of the 'Rules' to use Jackpoint to do so (( And he knew Fastjack would catch him)) He went through the trouble of finding her 'off' Jackpoint. Then contracted a full run against her to try and have her captured, turned over and cut up while still alive to see how she works.

This is seen as a betrayal of those in the group. Not just 'turning on another shadowrunner' but basically turning on one of the people in their select subset of professional experts in the shadowrunning community. Granted he didn't go at her through Jackpoint, but he found out about her there and then targeted her for a gruesome death, just for bigotry.

When confronted about it, he was unrepentant, and even went so far as to straight up and tell them all that he'd betray them all if he felt like it or the money was right. Since then he's gone on to continue his attempts to kill someone, that by all evidence is pretty "Good guy" on Jackpoint. He's indicated in intricate detail, knowledge og the appearance of Netcat and Slamm 0's son. To me this says he contracted out at least another run to gather information on Netcat/her family, as I think it'd be extremely clear if a hobgoblin walked up to you in the US, and being a Technomancer for Netcat, and a super hacker for Slamm O! I think they'd have plenty of Drone precaution as well. So for me that says someone else got close and got a look at the kid, and took the image with cyber eyes or something. The threat was made against the child then.

he's also popped up more than just that, talking about his own personal Jihad against Technomancers. Even going as far as talking about how he loves to crack open Techno safe houses for the money of selling them to those that will cut them up and such.

So, we have 1) A betrayer. 2) Who's unrepentant. 3) Who sold out one of his own to be vivisected, and failed. 4) Who told everyone on Jackpoint that he'd do the same to them. 5) Who is STILL trying to kill Netcat, and 6) Who has made threats to the kid. 7) Who kills other Technos, not for any personal slight, but because he's the skinny sharp toothed green version of a KKK member.

Noone but other Bigots likes a Bigot... Clockwork is a huge one and who tries to kill based on his hate. He's also a betrayer of 'The group'. He's tried to kill one of them. Not nameless faceless masses. That he's unrepentant about it just compounds the problem.

Clockwork's slights are "personal" and based on Bigotry.

Puck's Slights are 'impersonal' for the most part (( though he did betray the Denver Datahaven)) For half of it he was a puppet of the mean ol AI... but now he's willingly doing Terroristic behavior. He's targeting "100s or 1000s" of 'people' not..... Your buddy who you drink with, or talk code with.

What's that old saying? "Kill one person you're a murderer.... kill a million and it's a statistic?" ( or something like that)

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 02:00 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 06:48 PM)

Except they are, as evidenced by otaku becoming technomancers.
And nope, I fail to see the invalidity of my argument: otaku did capture and torture (experiment, if you will) a bunch of civilians, with a thick sauce of otaku supremacy poured over the whole ordeal. It's a well-known fact. And yeah, in my book, that does mean that people like Puck have it coming, and if a megacorp wishes to visit upon them what they visited upon others, I see no reason to take issue with that.

Except that they aren't, as evidence by only some Otaku becoming Technomancers and not all Technomancers being former Otaku. They're something separate - related somehow, but still something separate and distinct.

I'm absolutely amazed you don't see the invalidity of that argument. That same reasoning (people who belong to this group did this thing, therefore all members of that group are morally responsible for it) would say, for example, that all Americans should be held accountable for the Japanese internment, or that all Germans are responsible for the Holocaust, or that all white people are responsible for the actions of groups like the KKK... How the hell can you think it's valid to hold all members of a group responsible for the actions of only some members? Hell, I seem to remember something about there being Otaku in the SCIRE working AGAINST Deus, much less the ones working against him after all that.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 02:15 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 4 2013, 09:58 PM)

The Issue with Clockwork isn't just that he's an asshole.

<Much of Clockwork's assholery par excellence>

What's that old saying? "Kill one person you're a murderer.... kill a million and it's a statistic?" ( or something like that)

"One death is a tragedy. One million is a statistic." Josef Stalin said that bit.

And yeah... If I decide to resume running Seattle Knights, I think that they're gonna get a job to kill the ever-loving shit out of Clockwork. Of the "the job isn't done until you're sure the body's been eaten by ghouls/dissolved by nanites/incinerated in fine" variety.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 02:40 AM

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 06:00 AM)

Except that they aren't, as evidence by only some Otaku becoming Technomancers and not all Technomancers being former Otaku. They're something separate - related somehow, but still something separate and distinct.

All except for the faders more like. So the inheritance is obvious.

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 06:00 AM)

I'm absolutely amazed you don't see the invalidity of that argument. That same reasoning (people who belong to this group did this thing, therefore all members of that group are morally responsible for it) would say, for example, that all Americans should be held accountable for the Japanese internment, or that all Germans are responsible for the Holocaust, or that all white people are responsible for the actions of groups like the KKK... How the hell can you think it's valid to hold all members of a group responsible for the actions of only some members? Hell, I seem to remember something about there being Otaku in the SCIRE working AGAINST Deus, much less the ones working against him after all that.

Some members of the SS murdered Jews and Soviet civilians alike. Yet somehow the Nuremberg tribunal deemed the SS in its entirety a criminal organization.
And yeah, when a nation elects the leaders who start the Holocaust or drop nukes upon the cities without military targets, and then supports that government in its crimes, sure, the nation shares the burden of the crime. The German culture still has guilt trips (although much less now, but still).

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 5 2013, 05:58 AM)

That have banded together for mutual support and to make more money together, sharing information among themselves.

So their relationship is a purely business one. Which means Clockwork did not "betray" anyone, much less "one of his own".
Everything else comes naturally with being a highly qualified criminal for hire.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 03:12 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 10:40 PM)

Some members of the SS murdered Jews and Soviet civilians alike. Yet somehow the Nuremberg tribunal deemed the SS in its entirety a criminal organization.
And yeah, when a nation elects the leaders who start the Holocaust or drop nukes upon the cities without military targets, and then supports that government in its crimes, sure, the nation shares the burden of the crime. The German culture still has guilt trips (although much less now, but still).

You're right! I cannot, just cannot, believe that until now, I've never seen the exact 1:1 equivalence between voluntary membership in an organization and an inherent trait you have no choice or control over, like the race and social class you're born in, whether you're homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, or whether you're Awakened, Emerged, or Mundane!

This changes everything. Of course Netcat and her innocent daughter are just as guilty of anything Puck has done as Puck himself. And all Dragons are as guilty of being slaughtering bigots as Alamais, all white people are guilty of the lynchings the KKK conducted, all straights are guilty of all homophobic lynchings, all men are guilty of every rape that's ever taken place, etcetera.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put my affairs in order, walk down to the police station and report my culpability in every lynching and rape that's ever been perpetrated by a straight white male. Once my sentance for those crimes has concluded, sometime in what I expect will be the 41st millenium, I can get on with pleading guilty to all the regular murders that may not have been included in that list.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:13 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 09:46 PM)

So their relationship is a purely business one. Which means Clockwork did not "betray" anyone, much less "one of his own".
Everything else comes naturally with being a highly qualified criminal for hire.

If you cut one sentence out of most any text you can try and make it sound the way you want. Read the rest of the post and see that it's more than that.

Yes it is more than a business relationship. They are a subset of runners that have been vetted and brought into a select group, not unlike a private club. The information they trade in, helps to keep one another alive. The contacts that are made can also do such and result in friendship. There is a sense of comrodery that while not universal, is an accepted trait. friendship, extensions of Aid. Passing clients, also helping one another out when needed or asked is all seen with in Jackpoint.

Unlike the previous editions where it was open and just anyone could post, everyone on Jackpoint had been vetted to show that they could be trusted, up to and at the level of yes. Not using Jackpoint to go against one another. It's why Clockworks betrayal stands out. It's why the guy that was keeping files on the others.. ((Sticks maybe? I forget exactly)) Was not appreciated for what he was doing.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:16 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Apr 4 2013, 10:12 PM)

You're right! I cannot, just cannot, believe that until now, I've never seen the exact 1:1 equivalence between voluntary membership in an organization and an inherent trait you have no choice or control over, like the race and social class you're born in, whether you're homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, or whether you're Awakened, Emerged, or Mundane!

This changes everything. Of course Netcat and her innocent daughter are just as guilty of anything Puck has done as Puck himself. And all Dragons are as guilty of being slaughtering bigots as Alamais, all white people are guilty of the lynchings the KKK conducted, all straights are guilty of all homophobic lynchings, all men are guilty of every rape that's ever taken place, etcetera.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put my affairs in order, walk down to the police station and report my culpability in every lynching and rape that's ever been perpetrated by a straight white male. Once my sentance for those crimes has concluded, sometime in what I expect will be the 41st millenium, I can get on with pleading guilty to all the regular murders that may not have been included in that list.

The kid's a 'he' now. Small thing, but yeah. I'm not sure if they changed it or not but in the past few mentions it's been male/son.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 4 2013, 11:16 PM)

The kid's a 'he' now. Small thing, but yeah. I'm not sure if they changed it or not but in the past few mentions it's been male/son.

Really? I could've sworn I read that it was a she somewhere...

Then again, I wouldn't honestly put it past CGL to forget a plot point like the gender of Netcat's daughter/son/hermaphrodite/offspring, or overlook it being published incorrectly. After all, they gave us the seaside docks of Bogota.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:22 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Apr 4 2013, 10:18 PM)

Really? I could've sworn I read that it was a she somewhere...

Then again, I wouldn't honestly put it past CGL to forget a plot point like the gender of Netcat's daughter/son/hermaphrodite/offspring, or overlook it being published incorrectly. After all, they gave us the seaside docks of Bogota.

They really didn't. I already disproved that in another thread. lol. Disgruntled readers assumed such based off one sentence referencing a small smuggling vessel. Then blew it out of proportion all on their own.

And yeah, I'm not sure if it started as a 'she', but it's a 'he' now. It's come up a few times.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:24 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Apr 5 2013, 07:12 AM)

You're right! I cannot, just cannot, believe that until now, I've never seen the exact 1:1 equivalence between voluntary membership in an organization and an inherent trait you have no choice or control over, like the race and social class you're born in, whether you're homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual, or whether you're Awakened, Emerged, or Mundane!

This changes everything. Of course Netcat and her innocent daughter are just as guilty of anything Puck has done as Puck himself. And all Dragons are as guilty of being slaughtering bigots as Alamais, all white people are guilty of the lynchings the KKK conducted, all straights are guilty of all homophobic lynchings, all men are guilty of every rape that's ever taken place, etcetera.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put my affairs in order, walk down to the police station and report my culpability in every lynching and rape that's ever been perpetrated by a straight white male. Once my sentance for those crimes has concluded, sometime in what I expect will be the 41st millenium, I can get on with pleading guilty to all the regular murders that may not have been included in that list.

Membership in Deus' otaku was voluntarily.
Actually, being a technomancer is voluntary as well, potential does not imply obligation.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 03:25 AM

Then one has to wonder if Netcat failed to correctly sex her own offspring.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:26 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 10:24 PM)

Membership in Deus' otaku was voluntarily.
Actually, being a technomancer is voluntary as well, potential does not imply obligation.

Is being born homosexual voluntary? or being born heterosexual? is being born troll Voluntary? or being born Male or female?

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 03:27 AM

Nevermind, I didn't see Fatum's post. I'maderp.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:28 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Apr 4 2013, 10:25 PM)

Then one has to wonder if Netcat failed to correctly sex her own offspring.

lol maybe. I've not seen the kid mentioned as a 'her', only male, but many people have had the same impression you have, so I generally concede that the baby was mentioned Female in some supplement I've not read, or not read closely, and it's subsequently been retaconned to male.

ShadowDragon8685

Apr 5 2013, 03:29 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 10:24 PM)

Membership in Deus' otaku was voluntarily.
Actually, being a technomancer is voluntary as well, potential does not imply obligation.

Yes, voluntary in the way that enlisting in the army whilst under mind control is voluntary.
And being a Technomancer is voluntary in the same way that being Awakened is voluntary. You are or you aren't. You can choose to ignore (or in extreme cases, burn out) what you are, but you can probably use Programmable ASIST Biofeedback to change your sexual orientation in 2072, too. That doesn't mean that being gay, being a technomancer, or being Awakened are voluntary.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 5 2013, 07:13 AM)

Yes it is more than a business relationship. They are a subset of runners that have been vetted and brought into a select group, not unlike a private club. The information they trade in, helps to keep one another alive. The contacts that are made can also do such and result in friendship. There is a sense of comrodery that while not universal, is an accepted trait. friendship, extensions of Aid. Passing clients, also helping one another out when needed or asked is all seen with in Jackpoint.

Unlike the previous editions where it was open and just anyone could post, everyone on Jackpoint had been vetted to show that they could be trusted, up to and at the level of yes. Not using Jackpoint to go against one another. It's why Clockworks betrayal stands out. It's why the guy that was keeping files on the others.. ((Sticks maybe? I forget exactly)) Was not appreciated for what he was doing.

It is a closed-membership network for professional criminals for hire to trade the information that'd allow them to be more successful in their crimes. It's not altruistic aid they're trading there, it's all on quid pro quo basis. Camaraderie and seeking contacts are entirely optional: some runners want those, up to and including finding a spouse. Some apparently don't. And you can be sure that being highly qualified professionals they all at least keep tabs, if not datafiles, on each other.

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 03:33 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 07:40 PM)

All except for the faders more like. So the inheritance is obvious.

Some members of the SS murdered Jews and Soviet civilians alike. Yet somehow the Nuremberg tribunal deemed the SS in its entirety a criminal organization.
And yeah, when a nation elects the leaders who start the Holocaust or drop nukes upon the cities without military targets, and then supports that government in its crimes, sure, the nation shares the burden of the crime. The German culture still has guilt trips (although much less now, but still).

Go ahead and find me something that says that all otaku, PC and NPC alike, became technomancers.

And the SS are not the analogue all otaku in this example, they are the analogue to the otaku loyal to Deus. So, again, is it your contention that every German person is morally responsible for the Holocaust? Even those who weren't even alive at the time, or were not in Germany, and so on?

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:35 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 5 2013, 07:26 AM)

Is being born homosexual voluntary? or being born heterosexual? is being born troll Voluntary? or being born Male or female?

Being born with technomancer's potential is not voluntary, becoming a technomancer is. Just like being born male is not voluntary, but acting out the male gender roles is voluntary.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:37 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 10:32 PM)

It is a closed-membership network for professional criminals for hire to trade the information that'd allow them to be more successful in their crimes. It's not altruistic aid they're trading there, it's all on quid pro quo basis. Camaraderie and seeking contacts are entirely optional: some runners want those, up to and including finding a spouse. Some apparently don't. And you can be sure that being highly qualified professionals they all at least keep tabs, if not datafiles, on each other.

Often it IS altruistic though. Look at the runner that hunted down and frak'd up the guy that knifed Butch.

Look at Hard Exit, a HARDENED Merc, who arguably is one of the toughest members of JP, gently and compassionately offering to aid Turbo Bunny when she fell off the Wagon.

Look at FastJack himself, stating straight up he'd kill clockwork dead, if Clockwork DID go after the baby.

You're not wrong that they're a group of criminal runners, but they're not just 'business contacts and nothing more'.

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 03:38 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 08:35 PM)

Being born with technomancer's potential is not voluntary, becoming a technomancer is. Just like being born male is not voluntary, but acting out the male gender roles is voluntary.

... Whether or not a person Emerges is not their choice, and they are a technomancer regardless of whether or not they improve their abilities. Are you now abandoning your previous argument and instead claiming that people who train in certain abilities are morally responsible for the things that other people have done with similar abilities (not the same, but similar) before them?

And that's not even mentioning that you're now hailing to some other fundamentally terrible arguments.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Apr 5 2013, 07:29 AM)

Yes, voluntary in the way that enlisting in the army whilst under mind control is voluntary.

More like joining a club voluntary. Read the Arcology Lockdown: the Whites were enjoying it, finally reveling in their superiority to the common folk. Deus did not even need to mind control them, they were happy to oblige; and it's known that there were otaku who denied Deus.

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 03:42 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 08:39 PM)

More like joining a club voluntary. Read the Arcology Lockdown: the Whites were enjoying it, finally reveling in their superiority to the common folk. Deus did not even need to mind control them, they were happy to oblige; and it's known that there were otaku who denied Deus.

Which leads back to the question: If all technomancers are responsible for what otaku did there, why is it that you get to ignore those otaku who worked against Deus?

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 5 2013, 03:45 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 10:35 PM)

Being born with technomancer's potential is not voluntary, becoming a technomancer is. Just like being born male is not voluntary, but acting out the male gender roles is voluntary.

Wait.. what? You're still male man. Just like a technomancer whom doesn't 'embrace' his ability, is still a technomancer.

You're basically saying 'Being born male is not voluntary, but you can just cut off your penis. So.. you don't HAVE to be male!!

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:48 AM

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 07:33 AM)

Go ahead and find me something that says that all otaku, PC and NPC alike, became technomancers.

How about I find you the bit that says otaku became technomancers, and you find the one that says a noticeable number of them, other than the faders, didn't?

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 07:33 AM)

And the SS are not the analogue all otaku in this example, they are the analogue to the otaku loyal to Deus.

Which are exactly who I mean by "people like Puck".

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 07:33 AM)

So, again, is it your contention that every German person is morally responsible for the Holocaust? Even those who weren't even alive at the time, or were not in Germany, and so on?

Technomancers are a much closer-knit entity than the Germans. They follow the same "Deep Resonance", form culturally coherent organizations, etc.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:51 AM

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 5 2013, 07:42 AM)

Which leads back to the question: If all technomancers are responsible for what otaku did there, why is it that you get to ignore those otaku who worked against Deus?

Because they did not do so out of the reasons related to otaku/commoner relations (unlike the Whites and then the Dissonants acting of otaku superiority), and because they were in the minority.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 5 2013, 07:45 AM)

Wait.. what? You're still male man. Just like a technomancer whom doesn't 'embrace' his ability, is still a technomancer.

You're basically saying 'Being born male is not voluntary, but you can just cut off your penis. So.. you don't HAVE to be male!!

Let me reiterate: being physically male is not voluntary, being socially male is. Being Awakened is not voluntary, being a mage is.

Critias

Apr 5 2013, 03:54 AM

So now we're discussing reparations AND Nazis AND gender identity AND homosexuality AND racism all at once, instead of Safehouses. Awesome. Ray's really gonna love it if he checks on this thread from his fucking hospital bed (especially after the way his last thread imploded into accusations of misogyny). Jesus, you guys.

Fatum

Apr 5 2013, 03:58 AM

Erm. My bad, I guess.

tasti man LH

Apr 5 2013, 04:00 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 08:48 PM)

Technomancers are a much closer-knit entity than the Germans. They follow the same "Deep Resonance", form culturally coherent organizations, etc.

...and now I'm wondering if someone didn't read the bit on Streams in Unwired, considering that not ALL technomancers believe in the Deep Resonance as some sort of mystical/spiritual thing.

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 04:02 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Apr 4 2013, 08:48 PM)

How about I find you the bit that says otaku became technomancers, and you find the one that says a noticeable number of them, other than the faders, didn't?

Which are exactly who I mean by "people like Puck".

Technomancers are a much closer-knit entity than the Germans. They follow the same "Deep Resonance", form culturally coherent organizations, etc.

Except that we were talking about people like NetCat off the top, not people like Puck. Specifically, we were talking about Clockwork trying to give her to AZT and you seemed to imply that the stuff that happened in the SCIRE justified it. Puck is an entirely different question.

Also, Safehouses is awesome, and everyone who hasn't bought it yet should immediately do so.

Hope CanRay's doing alright. At least he doesn't have to cope with Alberta's broken healthcare system, which is certainly a positive (a couple decades of governments that wanted to privatize it but couldn't for legal and political reasons have left it with issues... And asking the same party to fix it isn't working out so well).

hermit

Apr 5 2013, 06:11 AM

QUOTE

So, again, is it your contention that every German person is morally responsible for the Holocaust? Even those who weren't even alive at the time, or were not in Germany, and so on?

Uhm, aside from being a bit against TOC here: that's just a very bad analogy.

You aren't born a German, it's not a distinguishable genetic (or magical) property of a person, much as some people would like it to be. It's not a quality you can buy with build points either. It's basically a voluntary membership in a socially defined group - people with German IDs who speak German at least passably well. It's nothing that's as integral a part of you as your skin colour or your ability to control machines with your mind. And even if you got the citizenship by birth, you can always reject it and take up another nationality if some country will have you, and you can join if you weren't one if you're willing to jump through some ridiculous hoops. You can't either become a technomancer by taking courses in technomancerish and having a job with technomancers, nor can you ditch being a technomancer and become a mage if that's more your fancy, no matter how much that one magical group likes you.

If you want TOC defying analogies, "every White American is responsible for enslaving and exploiting every African American and murdering all those Indians" is much better, because you cannot shed your skin as easily as your ID card. Nevermind that American Whites aren't culturally homogenous, there's new immigrants, yadda yadda, it still falls flat on it's face. Best, just leave such analogies alone. They miss the point AND will get this thread closed.

In less TOC defying terms, review upcoming soon.

RHat

Apr 5 2013, 06:37 AM

Actually, that was the entire point of the analogy - that the reasoning only works with entirely homogeneous groups (which will never occur, and thus the reasoning never works). Waiting on the review.

Grinder

Apr 5 2013, 08:04 AM

Next one who brings up

QUOTE

reparations AND Nazis AND gender identity AND homosexuality AND racism

gets a suspension.

This thread is about CanRay's book, and nothing else. If you have the need to discuss one of the other topics, use email or PM, but leave it out of this thread.

FuelDrop

Apr 5 2013, 09:51 AM

I can never remember, what is the 6th world term for trolling again? cos from where I'm sitting dumpshock just got trolled.

CanRay

Apr 6 2013, 03:30 PM

Folks, I just got out of the hospital, I'd like to not have ANOTHER thread of mine loved, SVP. Talk about Safehouses, not anything else.

As for the "Make Kane Likeable", bear in mind that he wanted to pull off the helmet and just start opening up on the crowd so he could have a kill score at the end of the 'Run. He's still Kane, he's just being subtle for once. For Kat's sake. In no way do I feel I worked outside of his personality.

Freya

Apr 6 2013, 06:48 PM

QUOTE (RHat @ Apr 4 2013, 09:02 PM)

Also, Safehouses is awesome, and everyone who hasn't bought it yet should immediately do so.

Hope CanRay's doing alright. At least he doesn't have to cope with Alberta's broken healthcare system, which is certainly a positive (a couple decades of governments that wanted to privatize it but couldn't for legal and political reasons have left it with issues... And asking the same party to fix it isn't working out so well).

This, absolutely, especially the "Get Well Soon CanRay!" part. (RHat, you sound like you live here.)

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 6 2013, 07:29 PM

QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 6 2013, 10:30 AM)

Folks, I just got out of the hospital, I'd like to not have ANOTHER thread of mine loved, SVP. Talk about Safehouses, not anything else.

As for the "Make Kane Likeable", bear in mind that he wanted to pull off the helmet and just start opening up on the crowd so he could have a kill score at the end of the 'Run. He's still Kane, he's just being subtle for once. For Kat's sake. In no way do I feel I worked outside of his personality.

I heard you got a Cyber arm. You doin' ok man?

CanRay

Apr 6 2013, 10:34 PM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 6 2013, 02:29 PM)

I heard you got a Cyber arm. You doin' ok man?

I'm getting Stainless Steel Bone Lacing on the installment plan.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 6 2013, 11:04 PM

QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 6 2013, 05:34 PM)

I'm getting Stainless Steel Bone Lacing on the installment plan.

Gotta love that Canadian Health care.

Hope you feel better. You need to get to typing!

CanRay

Apr 7 2013, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 6 2013, 06:04 PM)

Hope you feel better. You need to get to typing!

Says the guy that I'm the precursor to the $120 Main Rulebooks.

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 7 2013, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (CanRay @ Apr 6 2013, 09:14 PM)

Says the guy that I'm the precursor to the $120 Main Rulebooks.

Well yeah.. if I'm paying out good cash. I want good writing. I like yours.. so.... Jump to syrup drinker!! MUSH!! MUSH!!

CanRay

Apr 7 2013, 09:31 PM

So, what would help CanRay heal? Getting Safehouses into Platinum range instead of just Gold. Get everyone you know to buy!

And reviews, new reviews would be nice!

hermit

Apr 11 2013, 05:36 PM

Sory, cannot do.

I already bought it.

Review.

[ Spoiler ]

I cannot believe I didn't properly review this.

This is the author's first ever work for CGL, I believe. As such, it is well enough polished, a welcome change from CGL's routinely draft-like turn out.

The PDF itself is divided into two parts: a full part and a crunch part, going with what CGL has long established. The Fluff part is led in with a hilarious story of Kane posing as a stormtrooper to infiltrate San Diego during the annual nerd convention there. Though not my favourite Jackpointer by far, the story works well, especially with the appropriate background, though I am certain I missed half the references, being no convention goer myself and having never been in San Diego either. I'm still feeling Kane is a bit on the sane side here, but then again, most of his tall tales might be just that.

The meat of the fluff part is written from /dev/grrl's perspective, as a fictional homework given by FastJack as an attempt to make her into a more competent runner. She tells ofa mandatory vacation with her corp parents, to a corp convention in Vegas, and some corper out-of-comfort-zone shenanigans. She then tells this as a joke to 'jack, who promptly asks her to write an article on Safehouses, which is the fluff part, by and large.

Now, /dev/ is not my favourite Jackpointer either, in fact, she might be among the least favourite Jackpointers I have. Here, though, she works, as a sometimes bratty, sometimes smart, usually well readable narrator who does feel appropriately young without being totally annoying. She lays out what boltholes and safehouses are, what the differences and similarities are, all in a rather personal tone appropriate for the age she's supposed to be. Shadowtalk is used extensively and always seems in character, with the author seeming to have a clear idea of every shadowtalker, sadly a rarity in CGL products by now. The Kat story was a bit brief, though it works well as is.

Highlights of the fluff: Undoubtedly Wedge's Bolt Hole Supply List. I'm so using this, maybe changing and adding a few things. Like hygiene items (Soap, shower gel/shampoo, reusable rasor/hair removal cream), but as is, that's very in character for Wedge as I remember him. Wedge! RIP Chummer. Loads of in-game brand names (I'm such a sucker for those), good ideas for a set of gear, great list overall. Also, the fluff is teeming with hilarious jokes (socks, Mormons, the Knights of Saint Nicholas, Man-Of-Many-Names and his old rock lyrics ...). Also, the handling of /dev/, and the interaction with the art (more later).

Then, on to the crunch. Which is new lifestyle generation rules in line with RC's for Boltholes and Safehouses (which basically just mean getting different things for a slightly higher price). The rules look okay too, and I have since used them for a number of characters. The rules cover much more than just safehouses though, they basically fill in most gaps left with runner's Companion's lifestyle rules, like living in a vehicle (like the House Boat from Deadly Waves) or living as a hobo. yes, it has rules for living as a hobo. Hint: you need a good survival skill. It also has rules for finding a biolthole someone else is hiding in. Props for the new lifestyle qualities. That was oh so sorely needed, and many of them are just hilarious again. As are the sample safehouses on the last page (Double-Front Establishment! But what if it is Triple-Front and actually a chopshop? Also, Granny Greerson!).

As far as PDF rules expansions go, I got more mileage out of Safehouses than almost any other safe for Way of the Samurai, but then again, I only play mundanes, so that's probably neither representative nor fair.

The art is ... a surprisingly mixed bag here. Mixed because two pieces of six are scanned, pre-used art from Sprawl Survival Guide, which, while good art by themselves, are crappily scanned, in a way the art looks like shit. This is balanced by very good new art - and an utterly hilarious piece of art on the last page that directly references the fluff.

Even the editing seems okay, or at least, it doesn't matter against the general goodness of this book. The tone is great, the PDF seems to be one piece of solid concept and writing instead of a Frankenstein-esque patchwork of different styles, concepts, and ideas what "quality" means. It's like a book of old. I'm really happy about it, more than about most Shadowrun products since ... I dunno, but back then Nigel Findley was still walking the Earth, I guess. Of course, that I'm such a sucker for lifestyles and background fluff just might make me rather biased, but hey, YMMV.

I do think we need more stuff like this.

tl;dr: Buy it. It is really useful and a great read. 9,5/10.

Also, I have a question: If In buy the vehicle I am living in, does that count as buying the lifestyle's nescessities and comforts?

CanRay

Apr 11 2013, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 11 2013, 12:36 PM)

Also, I have a question: If In buy the vehicle I am living in, does that count as buying the lifestyle's nescessities and comforts?

No. Just as "Buying" the 'kaf machine, nuker, furniture, and 'trid set in a squat doesn't mean you've bought the necessities or comforts. What you're actually "paying" for is the supplies, upkeep, and eventual replacement of those items.

Example: Necessities. Yeah, you got the best kitchen in the world. Horizon stove, Evo nukerwave, S-K knives of Krupp Steel. But, what's in the fridge/freezer? A jar of stuff that pretends to be mustard and a box of month old take-out? Yeah, no dinner for you, Chummer, unless you can call up DominoHut and get a Soyza delivered. "Hello, I'd like an all-almost meat brought to the deepest, darkest barrens? How long? Half-past never? Well... Frag."

Thanks for the review!

bannockburn

Apr 11 2013, 08:22 PM

New character concept: Combat Pizza Delivery Guy!
Damn. Wait, that has been done before with the Deliverator

Pepsi Jedi

Apr 11 2013, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Apr 11 2013, 04:22 PM)

New character concept: Combat Pizza Delivery Guy!
Damn. Wait, that has been done before with the Deliverator

lil book called Snow Crash....