And it will burn down to: But my character would have known...
(Which is in this case a bit off, since the character might not have used such an overstreached demand in the first place...)
Full Version: How can I fight spirits with spirits?
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 28 2012, 11:20 AM) 
Even if the summoner deserves it, these are cases of the spirit *intentionally* misinterpreting (which may not be allowable, anyway). The spirit mystically owes services, and the spirit certainly knows the intent of what the summoner asked (to assume otherwise requires 'dog brain' tests for all spirits at all times). Personally, I think something like that would be interesting, but I know that no one plays it that way. 
So, any reversion to that is 100% GM-screwing. If the summoner is 'mistreating' spirits (whatever that means), let them resist with Edge; don't suddenly break the magic system.
So, any reversion to that is 100% GM-screwing. If the summoner is 'mistreating' spirits (whatever that means), let them resist with Edge; don't suddenly break the magic system.Mistreating-
Spirits find being disrupted agonizing and frequently object to being sent into positions where disruption is likely. P. 92 SM
Spirits dislike spell binding and will grow reluctant to aid a magician who abuses the spirit this way. P. 187 SR4a
Spirits can be the target of mental manipulation to get free services, but this sours the spirit toward the magician. FAQ
Even something as simple as asking a water based spirit to put out a fire while in their physical form can upset a spirit. P. 186 SR4a
How spirits resist:
Spirits will use Edge to resist summoning if there is a large power discrepancy or if the magician has a reputation for mistreating spirits. P. 95 SM
The spirit may use Edge to resist, complain or become insulting, make tasks that would not normally count as services count as services. FAQ
A spirit is fully capable of understanding a caster's intent, but they're also very intelligent and capable of refusing to do anything until you explicitly make it out as a service. P. 95 SM (in reference to a spirit that feels it being mistreated refusing to hand you a soda, until it's made a service)
Spirits should be treated like NPCs (and usually very intelligent ones) not tools. P.188 SR4a I don't think anyone would freak out about any other NPCs screwing over the team or misleading them.
So while it does not explicitly allow it, it's not just GM-screwing to have a spirit act out against its master. Its not something I would just drop in randomly, or that I've ever even done in a game. There would be a build up and some indication that the spirits are getting pissed off first. It can also lash out against its master this without misinterpreting or being very literal. For example, complaining loudly about how long the run is taking while you're trying to sneak in.
And do not forget the "Distraction" penalty a Spirit can impose for being intractable or difficult to control. Don't remember the page number off hand, but it is in there. It is a -2 Penalty (Not sure if it is Per Spirit, though I expect it likely is).
Hrm... Slapping them with background count to fuck with them all of a sudden would be pretty mean. And so would having their spirits start acting out, though I'm going to need to double-check all of their spirits and make sure they aren't telling the wrong type of spirits to do stuff.
But, my main question hasn't been answered. Is there any kind of Spirit that can be summoned that's specifically good at fucking with other spirits? Can a Spirit use Banishing to get rid of another one?
But, my main question hasn't been answered. Is there any kind of Spirit that can be summoned that's specifically good at fucking with other spirits? Can a Spirit use Banishing to get rid of another one?
The best I can think of is probably a spirit of Man with the innate spell power (stun ball). It can put out twice its magic score in damage rather than equal to its magic score like most of the spirits elemental attacks. And it's an area attack so you catch several of them at once.
They probably have a bunch of F6 spirits? That gives them about 12 boxes each. They roll 6 Willpower against your spirits 12 (6 magic, 6 spellcasting), so on average you're looking at 2 net hits. If your spirit of man overcasts at force 12, it should be able to average 14 damage and knock out several of their spirits in a single pass. Some of their spirits might have counterspelling or magical guard.
They probably have a bunch of F6 spirits? That gives them about 12 boxes each. They roll 6 Willpower against your spirits 12 (6 magic, 6 spellcasting), so on average you're looking at 2 net hits. If your spirit of man overcasts at force 12, it should be able to average 14 damage and knock out several of their spirits in a single pass. Some of their spirits might have counterspelling or magical guard.
@ShadowDragon8685
No, there is not. (Unless they are using spirits who can not counterspell. Which I doubt, since one is vodoo)
The only way is to send a spirit with higher force to kill the spirits. This can be done, because spirits are much harder to bind than to summon.
Magical defence has one major drawback: It is very easy to damage it and it will take a lot to repair it.
No, there is not. (Unless they are using spirits who can not counterspell. Which I doubt, since one is vodoo)
The only way is to send a spirit with higher force to kill the spirits. This can be done, because spirits are much harder to bind than to summon.
Magical defence has one major drawback: It is very easy to damage it and it will take a lot to repair it.
While true, thorya, that's different from what I said. Once you *do* spend a service to request a soda, you're getting your soda. It won't be poisoned, or stolen from a local mob boss, or something else crazy. And right, that's after clear mistreatment, not just because the GM feels like it.
And right, that's after clear mistreatment, not just because the GM feels like it.
I can understand that position. I still think it depends upon how pissed the spirit is and how specific you are. Certainly it won't be poisoned because you asked for a soda not a poisoned soda. But if you just said (or more appropriately thought since it's a mental link) get me a soda without a specific soda in mind, I think a F6+ spirit that was mistreated might go out and steal a soda from someone that will want it back. Just like if you request that it "set fire to anyone that comes through the door", a friendly spirit will probably know you did not intend it to set fire to your team member when they unexpectedly rush through the door and will let them pass. The angry spirit will follow your instruction explicitly and burn your buddy (maybe even using edge to make sure he's extra crispy).
If on considers that sprits draw most of their knowledge about teh world from their summoner's mind, ask a pissed spirit for 'a soda' is likely to get you a brand you dislike, probably lukewarm and possibly well past it's 'best before' date.
You know, it seems to me that a Spirit stands to lose as much from pissing off a magician as the Magician stands to lose from pissing off a spirit.
I mean, if a Spirit I bound to guard my door decided to go overcharge an attack with Edge to make my friend extra-crispy, I'd want payback. Payback that might well include tracking the little bastard down where he lives and exterminating him.
(Or something less drastic if he didn't kill/try to kill one of my friends, but similarly awful, like binding him and commanding him to purify the entire Seattle municipal waste system as a single service.)
I mean, if a Spirit I bound to guard my door decided to go overcharge an attack with Edge to make my friend extra-crispy, I'd want payback. Payback that might well include tracking the little bastard down where he lives and exterminating him.
(Or something less drastic if he didn't kill/try to kill one of my friends, but similarly awful, like binding him and commanding him to purify the entire Seattle municipal waste system as a single service.)
QUOTE (thorya @ Feb 28 2012, 07:46 PM)
Mistreating-
Spirits find being disrupted agonizing and frequently object to being sent into positions where disruption is likely. P. 92 SM
Spirits dislike spell binding and will grow reluctant to aid a magician who abuses the spirit this way. P. 187 SR4a
Spirits can be the target of mental manipulation to get free services, but this sours the spirit toward the magician. FAQ
Even something as simple as asking a water based spirit to put out a fire while in their physical form can upset a spirit. P. 186 SR4a
How spirits resist:
Spirits will use Edge to resist summoning if there is a large power discrepancy or if the magician has a reputation for mistreating spirits. P. 95 SM
The spirit may use Edge to resist, complain or become insulting, make tasks that would not normally count as services count as services. FAQ
A spirit is fully capable of understanding a caster's intent, but they're also very intelligent and capable of refusing to do anything until you explicitly make it out as a service. P. 95 SM (in reference to a spirit that feels it being mistreated refusing to hand you a soda, until it's made a service)
Spirits should be treated like NPCs (and usually very intelligent ones) not tools. P.188 SR4a I don't think anyone would freak out about any other NPCs screwing over the team or misleading them.
So while it does not explicitly allow it, it's not just GM-screwing to have a spirit act out against its master. Its not something I would just drop in randomly, or that I've ever even done in a game. There would be a build up and some indication that the spirits are getting pissed off first. It can also lash out against its master this without misinterpreting or being very literal. For example, complaining loudly about how long the run is taking while you're trying to sneak in.
Spirits find being disrupted agonizing and frequently object to being sent into positions where disruption is likely. P. 92 SM
Spirits dislike spell binding and will grow reluctant to aid a magician who abuses the spirit this way. P. 187 SR4a
Spirits can be the target of mental manipulation to get free services, but this sours the spirit toward the magician. FAQ
Even something as simple as asking a water based spirit to put out a fire while in their physical form can upset a spirit. P. 186 SR4a
How spirits resist:
Spirits will use Edge to resist summoning if there is a large power discrepancy or if the magician has a reputation for mistreating spirits. P. 95 SM
The spirit may use Edge to resist, complain or become insulting, make tasks that would not normally count as services count as services. FAQ
A spirit is fully capable of understanding a caster's intent, but they're also very intelligent and capable of refusing to do anything until you explicitly make it out as a service. P. 95 SM (in reference to a spirit that feels it being mistreated refusing to hand you a soda, until it's made a service)
Spirits should be treated like NPCs (and usually very intelligent ones) not tools. P.188 SR4a I don't think anyone would freak out about any other NPCs screwing over the team or misleading them.
So while it does not explicitly allow it, it's not just GM-screwing to have a spirit act out against its master. Its not something I would just drop in randomly, or that I've ever even done in a game. There would be a build up and some indication that the spirits are getting pissed off first. It can also lash out against its master this without misinterpreting or being very literal. For example, complaining loudly about how long the run is taking while you're trying to sneak in.
Oh no, now you've gone and done it: You've made it clear that the spirit can decide what's a service and what not. Which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, because let's face it, now spirits have become vulnerable to pornomancing!
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 28 2012, 07:35 PM)
Oh no, now you've gone and done it: You've made it clear that the spirit can decide what's a service and what not. Which opens up all kinds of cans of worms, because let's face it, now spirits have become vulnerable to pornomancing!
Wait, what?
Part of me doesn't want to know. The rest of me has just gotta know: what in the nine shining hells do you mean by 'pornomancing'?
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 29 2012, 01:37 AM)
Wait, what?
Part of me doesn't want to know. The rest of me has just gotta know: what in the nine shining hells do you mean by 'pornomancing'?
Part of me doesn't want to know. The rest of me has just gotta know: what in the nine shining hells do you mean by 'pornomancing'?
It's basically... well, seduction, on steroids, using a LOT of dice. Google Pornomancer + Shadowrun, you're sure to find something.
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 29 2012, 01:37 AM)
Wait, what?
Part of me doesn't want to know. The rest of me has just gotta know: what in the nine shining hells do you mean by 'pornomancing'?
Part of me doesn't want to know. The rest of me has just gotta know: what in the nine shining hells do you mean by 'pornomancing'?
Do you only read threads you started?
In short, usually an adept or mystic with a bucketful of con or seduction dice.
QUOTE (Chinane @ Feb 28 2012, 07:46 PM)
Do you only read threads you started?
I haven't been on Dumpshock for four years. I read what's around the top of the forums.
QUOTE
In short, usually an adept or mystic with a bucketful of con or seduction dice.
Ahhh, whew. I was half-afraid, half-expecting it was a name for some kind of weird tradition in which the summoners bargain for services by having a sex-off with the spirit.
For me, the only sane, workable concept is that 'clean' services are mystically owed; the spirits are karmically (or whatever ) prevented from screwing with things. That's the whole point of the service-owing process. The most they can do is resist summoning/binding, or *require* services for tasks (instead of doing things for free). They don't get to alter 'how big is a service?' or monkey's-paw you, including 'literal' or 'stupid' interpretations. They're smart, they know what you meant, and magic compels them.
) prevented from screwing with things. That's the whole point of the service-owing process. The most they can do is resist summoning/binding, or *require* services for tasks (instead of doing things for free). They don't get to alter 'how big is a service?' or monkey's-paw you, including 'literal' or 'stupid' interpretations. They're smart, they know what you meant, and magic compels them.
QUOTE (thorya @ Feb 28 2012, 03:07 PM)
The best I can think of is probably a spirit of Man with the innate spell power (stun ball). It can put out twice its magic score in damage rather than equal to its magic score like most of the spirits elemental attacks.
You are aware that Innate Spell has been errata'd to not be Overcast-able, right?
EDIT: Or were you referencing the ability to get Force successes on the Test also?
I was not aware. I guess that means most spirits are about even. Maybe manipulation spells to turn them on one another.
Any spirit with a Natural Weapon and an Elemental Aura would be my bet. DV = Force + 4, ignoring ItNW? Beast spirits are pretty mean, but they don't get an aura.
Or housecats. Natural Weapons bypass ItNW, so dogbites and catscratches cut through spirits. Page 295, SR4A. Critter Powers bypass ItNW, and Natural Weapon is a Critter Power.
Or housecats. Natural Weapons bypass ItNW, so dogbites and catscratches cut through spirits. Page 295, SR4A. Critter Powers bypass ItNW, and Natural Weapon is a Critter Power.
It's not a real power, you stop your shenanigans. Even if it were, *no* natural weapons should bypass.
Even if it were, *no* natural weapons should bypass.
Well, the natural weapon of a spirit will bypass, since the spirit is dual natured...
The aura is questionable, but again I think RAW it would work. (If spells with elemental effects bypass ItNW)
Still, it does not really matter. The aura is a physical effect, so it only works on the physical plane.
Well, if it is really possible it is a nice thing, but still. You need to hit the spirit first...
The aura is questionable, but again I think RAW it would work. (If spells with elemental effects bypass ItNW)
Still, it does not really matter. The aura is a physical effect, so it only works on the physical plane.
Well, if it is really possible it is a nice thing, but still. You need to hit the spirit first...
To me, it's not a 'natural' weapon if it's magical (including dual-natured, right).
So the answer to excessive misuse of bound spirits is to remember they are intelligent creatures and don't really take kindly to servitude?
It'll become obvious as a GM when your magician is using too many Bound Spirits as it will upset the balance, or just be plain imba. So at that point, the rules on p187 SR4a suggest a -2 DP for having to control the spirit. Perhaps a house rule could involve a Negotiation, Etiquette (Spirit) or Leadership opposed test vs the Spirit's force x2, +1 for every time in the last month a spirit of that type has been bound or mistreted. Apply the net hits to the Spirit's force. So in the first instance, you might well be rolling with a boosted spirit, but over use them and they'll start getting a bit annoyed and operate at a lower force.
It'll become obvious as a GM when your magician is using too many Bound Spirits as it will upset the balance, or just be plain imba. So at that point, the rules on p187 SR4a suggest a -2 DP for having to control the spirit. Perhaps a house rule could involve a Negotiation, Etiquette (Spirit) or Leadership opposed test vs the Spirit's force x2, +1 for every time in the last month a spirit of that type has been bound or mistreted. Apply the net hits to the Spirit's force. So in the first instance, you might well be rolling with a boosted spirit, but over use them and they'll start getting a bit annoyed and operate at a lower force.
QUOTE (Kolinho @ Mar 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
Apply the net hits to the Spirit's force. So in the first instance, you might well be rolling with a boosted spirit, but over use them and they'll start getting a bit annoyed and operate at a lower force.
Ok, seriously, read what you've just written. Do it. And then tell me why this would break the game SO HARD.
[ Spoiler ]
Aye, fair enough, it was just a thought. To be fair though, I did also suggest that it would go hand in hand with the -2 global DP penalty for having a bound spirit.
You're right though, daft idea
I guess the roll could only work to remove force. So in a sense the opposed test is to see how much control you have over the Spirit. Personally, i'd prefer to play it loose and fluffy anyway. RP my way through it, either as GM or player.
You're right though, daft idea
I guess the roll could only work to remove force. So in a sense the opposed test is to see how much control you have over the Spirit. Personally, i'd prefer to play it loose and fluffy anyway. RP my way through it, either as GM or player.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 29 2012, 03:40 PM)
To me, it's not a 'natural' weapon if it's magical (including dual-natured, right).
Well, somehow I was missing the point there. I wanted actually to say, that it bypasses because of beeing from a spirit and NOT because of beeing a natural weapon...
But I have to check the book, when I am back. I think the natural weapons of "critters" are not a case of the natural weapon power...
Neraph was suggesting that mundane cats and dogs can beat spirits with their Power of 'natural weapon'. As with everything Neraph says, that's wrong even if the rules say so. 
(I kid, Neraph.)
(I kid, Neraph.)
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2012, 02:02 PM)
Neraph was suggesting that mundane cats and dogs can beat spirits with their Power of 'natural weapon'. As with everything Neraph says, that's wrong even if the rules say so. (I kid, Neraph.)
(I kid, Neraph.)Of course they can! They just have to use those natural weapons with Willpower...
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 1 2012, 05:53 PM)
Of course they can! They just have to use those natural weapons with Willpower...
And throw in swarms and mischiefs from Running Wild, and the Beastmaster becomes Spirit Hunter.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 1 2012, 07:02 AM)
Neraph was suggesting that mundane cats and dogs can beat spirits with their Power of 'natural weapon'. As with everything Neraph says, that's wrong even if the rules say so. (I kid, Neraph.)
(I kid, Neraph.)The only question is: "How RAW do you like your game?"
Yeah, so RAW you'll get sick? 'Rules As Wrong' is never, ever the right answer.
'Rules As Wrong' is never, ever the right answer.
I'm not sure if someone's come up with this before, but you could build a mage killer mystic adept to go after these spirits and their mages.
Here's a build I threw together. (I'm probably bending or breaking a few rules)
Not sure if you can stack critical strike onto an attack of will. It makes sense to me that you could, but couldn't find rules one way or the other. Also, I'm not clear on whether you can use a banishing focus on attacks of will, but it would make it even more effective. This character will still have some trouble with a normal street samurai, but you could probably put in a point of ware and make him just generally decent in a normal fight too. An initiation could probably also help. He's far from optimized.
I like the idea of a gnome in tricked out armor running up to spirits and beating the crap out of them while the mage's spells bounce off uselessly. The gnome you call when a mage is getting out of hand.
Here's a build I threw together. (I'm probably bending or breaking a few rules)
[ Spoiler ]
Not sure if you can stack critical strike onto an attack of will. It makes sense to me that you could, but couldn't find rules one way or the other. Also, I'm not clear on whether you can use a banishing focus on attacks of will, but it would make it even more effective. This character will still have some trouble with a normal street samurai, but you could probably put in a point of ware and make him just generally decent in a normal fight too. An initiation could probably also help. He's far from optimized.
I like the idea of a gnome in tricked out armor running up to spirits and beating the crap out of them while the mage's spells bounce off uselessly. The gnome you call when a mage is getting out of hand.
Horribly Illegal Thorya. Just sayin'. The Concept is good, but execution is lacking.
Bending and Breaking more than a few rules there.
Bending and Breaking more than a few rules there.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:38 PM)
Horribly Illegal Thorya. Just sayin'. The Concept is good, but execution is lacking.
Bending and Breaking more than a few rules there.
Bending and Breaking more than a few rules there.
I figured, but which ones?
Also, does anyone know exactly what it means when it says that Killing Hands negates the bonuses from immunity to normal weapons? Does this mean that effectively the spirit has no armor for your attacks or just that it doesn't count as hardened armor?
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 2 2012, 01:40 PM)
I figured, but which ones?
Also, does anyone know exactly what it means when it says that Killing Hands negates the bonuses from immunity to normal weapons? Does this mean that effectively the spirit has no armor for your attacks or just that it doesn't count as hardened armor?
Also, does anyone know exactly what it means when it says that Killing Hands negates the bonuses from immunity to normal weapons? Does this mean that effectively the spirit has no armor for your attacks or just that it doesn't count as hardened armor?
Killing hands ignores ITNW Completely. The Armor does not exist agianst them.
Arguable, but if you are a Mystic Adept, you MUST put at least 1 magic into Adept and one into Sorcery, so you could be split 5 Adept, 1 Sorcery. If you do not choose to do so, you are NOT playing a Mystic Adept, but an Adept, and it should be adjusted that way.
You cannot get an Adept Ability to improve Summoning. Not Allowed at all.
Critical Strike will not add to an Attack of Will. However, With Base 16 Dice (SKill 6, Specialty in AoW, and 8 Willpower), Your Attack of Will is MUCH better, so get the Kiai Martial Art with 3 levels (15 BP) and take the Increased AoW Damage (+3) so now you are inflicting 8p with your AoW (Charisma + 3 DV). That should take care of any Spirits (Again, no ITNW to worry about). Add in the "Focus Will" Maneuver for an additional +2 Dice for any Willpower test when used. Makes an effecient Spirit Killer.
I am sure there is more, but my mind is going blank.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:05 PM)
Killing hands ignores ITNW Completely. The Armor does not exist agianst them.
Correct.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:05 PM)
Arguable, but if you are a Mystic Adept, you MUST put at least 1 magic into Adept and one into Sorcery, so you could be split 5 Adept, 1 Sorcery. If you do not choose to do so, you are NOT playing a Mystic Adept, but an Adept, and it should be adjusted that way.
Not at all. The argument is more along the lines of GM preference and GM fiat; nowhere in the rules does it state this is the case.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:05 PM)
You cannot get an Adept Ability to improve Summoning. Not Allowed at all.
Correct.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:05 PM)
Critical Strike will not add to an Attack of Will. However, With Base 16 Dice (SKill 6, Specialty in AoW, and 8 Willpower), Your Attack of Will is MUCH better, so get the Kiai Martial Art with 3 levels (15 BP) and take the Increased AoW Damage (+3) so now you are inflicting 8p with your AoW (Charisma + 3 DV). That should take care of any Spirits (Again, no ITNW to worry about). Add in the "Focus Will" Maneuver for an additional +2 Dice for any Willpower test when used. Makes an effecient Spirit Killer.
Correct.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 2 2012, 03:05 PM)
I am sure there is more, but my mind is going blank.
Correct.
You cannot specialize Perception for "Concealed Targets."
You cannot specialize Dodge for "Spirit Attacks."
There may be more.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 3 2012, 12:15 AM)
You cannot specialize Perception for "Concealed Targets."
You cannot specialize Dodge for "Spirit Attacks."
You cannot specialize Dodge for "Spirit Attacks."
I think both of those are completely reasonable. A perception bonus against targets currently being Concealed by the Spirit power is no more useful or broken than visual specialization which covers way more situations (especially since players will probably argue that they should get those dice against visually concealed targets anyway). You can take Dodge Melee or Dodge Range, spirit attacks is probably less broadly applicable and fits with a spirit hunter better than one or the other of the standard options. Just because it's not explicitly listed doesn't mean that it's not an acceptable choice, it just needs GM approval. I could understand vetoing them if they were specializations that gave you a bonus to every roll, but they're so focused that they're only really useful for doing what this guy has trained for.
Where does it say you can have any specialization not listed?
QUOTE (Neraph @ Mar 3 2012, 02:15 AM)
Where does it say you can have any specialization not listed?
http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/f...sked-questions/
In the skills section
QUOTE
Can I have _______ specialization, even if it’s not listed for the skill?
Yes. The listed specializations with each skill are not all-inclusive, and players are free to come up with other specializations that fit their characters. No specialization should be applicable for all tests undertaken with that skill. Gamemasters have final approval on all characters.
Yes. The listed specializations with each skill are not all-inclusive, and players are free to come up with other specializations that fit their characters. No specialization should be applicable for all tests undertaken with that skill. Gamemasters have final approval on all characters.
In addition, some of the RAW listed Specs are crap.
I wouldn't allow (or even want) the specs you're discussing, though. 'Spirit attacks'? Psh.
I wouldn't allow (or even want) the specs you're discussing, though. 'Spirit attacks'? Psh.
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 3 2012, 01:24 AM)
Forgive me for only checking the rulebooks.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.