The safest thing is to just assume in general that bonuses FROM THE SAME SOURCE do not stack, all others do.

So, no stacking multiple Increase Strength spells or multiple Muscle Augmentations, but an Increase Strength spell will stack quite happily with a Muscle Augmentation implant, up to the modified max of course.




-k

So you didn't read the example for it at all:
"so, for example, an armor vest would encumber someone
with Body 2, if the armor vest was Soft Weave and that person had
a Strength of at least 2, he could wear it without penalty due to
armor encumberance"
No mention of stacking armors, just a 6/4 armor, that with softweawe counts as 4/4 for encumbrance if you have STR 2 and can then be worn by a person with BOD 2 with no encumbrance.

In fairness: ugh, freaking SoftWeave.

It's Not all that bad...

It's in WAR, and it allows more armor. Nuff said. :O

I guess if Armor is a problem at a particular table to start with, then yes, it adds more. If it's not, well, It adds options instead.

I've never had a problem with too much Armor, at my table most people are walking around with 30+, but at the same time since SnS and other Elemental attacks exist you really only have 15 (or 21 with the right Mod). Then you have Lasers and other things like Gauss Cannon. Unless you get Armor in the hundreds (which you easily can) you can still die at any moment.

See, that's the problem: lasers and gauss cannons shouldn't be required to deal non-stun to a *person*. Oh no, a mere 15 armor against special attacks?

There are not required, but are simply a option. So is Poison, or Lack of Air, simply get inventive. Magic is also a good one, maybe hit someone with a Ram attack thats like 30p+, the sky is the limit.

Yes, there are indeed ways to deal with it. Sadly, the normal range of guns and explosives aren't included in that range. What a waste, when you could avoid that by just… *not* having 30 armor.

Maybe, but that is _way_ out of the envelope of any game I've been in. I've been in games where people actually used a streetline special once or twice and were glad they had it hidden on their person.

Our games don't tend to mistake shadowrunners for main battle tanks.

Indeed. I'd love it if holdouts were ever used for something (and not with a DP of 20, either). A table with 'most' people on 30+ is just absurd. I'm sure you have fun, and more power to you, of course. But the 'intended' level of power doesn't seem to be there. It seems like people are 'expected' to have armor between maybe 6 and 10 (roughly), and to use normal guns and things.

I read Softweave the way I do because the alternative is allowing each piece of PPP to be softweaved, which is a bit bonkers.

I'm curious to see this - not doubting you, just wondering how you would do it.

The thing is, Increase [Attribute] explicitly states that a PC can only be subject to one instance. Were that the default, why would they point it out?

@crazymykl
First of all, this is pretty much the default for any RPG.
Mostly because everything else would be more than silly.
Oh, I sustained combat reflexes twice for additional 16 dice to defence tests... Yeah, that kind of shit.
Now I roll between 20 and 30 dice...

I think it lies in different writers writing differently, and some editing slip-ups. Some writers felt the need to explicitly mention rules, others thought some things were common sense or talked about in another part of the book or assumed there was a "default".

It's definitely just my opinion on things like this, anyway. No need to rules-lawyer a game to death and scrutinize every single word for nuance.

Going back to the original question of how to save your prime runner sorceress from PCs gunning her down, I too would go with misdirection. Increase BOD spell, sustained Armour and/or Deflection spells can only go so far, especially against high DP firearms'o'doom.

Improved Invisibility plus Ruthenium Coat (thermal dampening 6 natch) plus high Force Spirit concealment can help. Spirit/metahuman minions too can help. Mirror Image plus Chaotic World or Hot Potatoes can also reduce their DP, make their guns too hot to handle and even if they do get a few shots off they will hopefully be shooting at the mirror image anyway ...

This seems to be exactly what I was looking for; I was too caught up in making certain numbers high enough to see that really I was trying to solve the wrong subproblem.

Doesn't matter how many armor pieces you softweave only one(the highest) worn armor value is reduces by STR for purpose of encumbrance.

Now you've done it, phlapjack. I hope it's not either 'a bunch of cyberlimbs' or 'possession spirits in everything'… or both. Ugh.

You'll note that many current roleplaying games use repeated similar or identical phrasing in areas that discuss related rules and terms.

It is important to note that this 'modern' method of RPG writing, where you have precisely defined glossaries of terms and internal guidelines on specific written syntax, is kinda recent. This is a development from years of experience in learning how players and DM read the books. It's a similar style to how technical manuals are written.

Shadowrun kinda... doesn't do this.

Oh, to be sure, there have been some efforts to coordinate this kinda thing by the various line developers and writers, but there's tons of areas that conflict or confuse each other because one writer decided to word something one way, and a different writer worded a similar section another way, and so on.

Which is partly why we get so many rules arguments in Shadowrun.

(the other part is that we're argumentative bastards)



-k

That's how I read it at my table, the alternate reading (it reduces encumbrance of the type (ballistic/impact) with the higher value) is not cromulent.

Wow... 30+.

I would say that your table is not typical. The average at our table is about 8-10. I would hazard a guess that more tables are at the 8-10 Average than the 30+ Average, even here on Dumpshock.

Average at my table is 8-10 for characters which aren't combat specialists, and 14-18 for those who are. There is that one heavily cybered ork with 29/26, though.

Even our Combat Spoecialists are only generally wearing about 12-14 Armor, And some of THEM fall into the 10 Range as well... Though our Troll Psycho (in one of our games) occasionally wears around 22 points IIRC.

Same with my players.

...except that the current psycho is human (but he's only up to 18 I think...)

I'm a little late to this party, but this is also exactly what I was thinking. If you really need defense...

1) Armor(6)
2) Deflection(6)
3) Improved Invisibility(6)
4) Summon Spirit - Concealment power

You will be at -6DP for sustaining, but the enemy's Dice Pool will be reduced much farther and they really can't even find you, and you will have decent armor in case someone gets a lucky shot.

Those are the same reading(note i posted both of them) the highest value is a singe impact or ballistic value, not one of both types.

Attach cyberlimbs to your cyberlimbs for real ultimate power! become the human centipede!

For those asking

One of our guys runs with 22/22 out of Cyber Armor (Arms/Legs/Torso/Skull), none of that encumbers him btw.

He gets another 16/18 from worn armor (doesn't encumber him)

He ends up with 38/40 Armor, this can go up when someone casts Armor on him, or if he uses a shield etc,etc.

That's just a quick example.

As for Softweave it reduces the higher rating Per item worn.
EXAMPLE:
So if a full suit of FFBA is 6/2 (Softweave)
and the PPP full System is 2/6 (softweave)

with at least a 4 STR you end up with 2/2 armor for encumbrance purposes.

This isn't in the hundreds though? Unless there are multiple Armor spells cast on him (like, 10 or more?)

If you want to get into the hundreds without spell stacking you need layers of armor that is achieved via vehicle usage. I have a OLD thread somewhere...
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=24154&hl=
EDIT: This is the correct thread : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=23935&hl=
EDIT 2: Some older rules may no longer be correct due to FAQ's and Errata, remember those are from 2008.

We can now do better than that old thread (400+ Armor) because of new books and such, but the principle remains the same.

Otherwise yes, you can get +A LOT of armor by stacking spells, although others obviously disagree.

Ok, thanks for the link.

"Easily" is not the word that springs to mind, reading that thread. Other words spring to mind

But no, not "easily"

For us, it's 4-6 for the noncombat folks, and 6-12 for the combat specialists. The toughest I've seen in our games was actually a character known as the Roach, known for his toughness, his ability to dodge, and his tendency to dive behind/under things when excrement hit the fan. He had armor from orthoskin, bone lacing, and worn armor that varied depending on the situation. He drifted from 10/6 to 14/11. He died in an open-field crossfire from 12 or so Mafia goons and 1 mook with an assault cannon. (it wasn't the assault cannon that got him - it was the critical glitch on the upteenth dodge roll).

The second toughest was a fairly vanilla street sam who got his hands on a set of security armor from a Jaguar Guard. As far as I kniow he never died, but also rarely wore the armor. It was more a badge of pride for him, I think.

The problem with that Uber Armor guy is, well, he can't go lots of places.

If a run takes him into SeaTac Spaceport, for example, he's screwed.





-k

The Car is the Size of a Troll, smaller than the tallest ones. I just thought i would point that out

But a troll is significantly more flexible. At some point, though, you can just live in an underground bunker with walls a hundred feet thick. Tons of armor!

However you can do the same thing with other, smaller, vehicles. The principle is the same regardless of the example vehicle. I like that Car so I used it. You may like a Horseman or a Bike, it doesn't matter really.

I think the same answer applies, until the troll's bones are literally just too wide for the terrain. Humanoid is a handy shape, and yes, trolls *are* sometimes too unwieldy in a human-sized world. So… those vehicles better be really small.

Why so complicated?

The armor customization rules clearly state, that you can completely ignore endurance for customized armor.

Just stack as many customized Vitals Protectors as you can afford for as high an armor rating as you wish!


Or even simpler ... just run naked!!

Bye
Thanee

Why so complicated?

The armor customization rules clearly state, that you can ignore encumbrance entirely for customized armor.

Just stack as many customized Vitals Protectors as you can afford for as high an armor rating as you wish!


Or even simpler ... just run naked (last paragraph) and be immune to damage (fair warning: beware of Adrenal Pumps, though)!!

Bye
Thanee

That's an optional rule, though. Using the other optional rule you can ignore encumbrance as long as you only wear one piece of armor.

Obviously, though, optional rules are there to provide more options. So, make use of them!

Bye
Thanee

@Thanee
Well, a lot of the optional rules tend to be a bit silly. Healing drain with the healing spell?

I can understand, that it might lead to balance issues (esp. with overcasting)... but silly? Wounds are wounds after all.

Bye
Thanee

Drain can never be healed by Magic.
Sympathetic Healing Adept-Power was a loop-hole in that it shifted the damage from the mage to the adept but still did not get rid of it.

Nope

That's why you use blood magic! A simple cut to get rid of the drain, then a simple spell to get rid of the cut...

Street Magic p. 31 begs to differ.

Bye
Thanee