So just curious as to what everyone else does when it comes time to spend all that hard earned karma. Do you start by improving your ability scores? Improving skills you bought at char gen? Or do you start developing new skills?

Obviously I realize a lot depends on each specific character, particularly since mages will save up for initiation and the like. But assuming that you are a character that is more dependent on skills (like a sammie, or hacker) is it worth it to branch out first or build up what you have? I guess in some ways its 6 of one, half a dozen of another as you either get really good at a few things initially, or get somewhat good at a number of things.

I guess for me, I tend to prefer to branch out and be able to cover more bases. So, what do you do?

I find that my first priority is raising my existing skills. I never feel I have enough skills at chargen, as I like well-rounded characters. So my starting characters have low ratings in a lot of skills. Getting an extra point in them makes me feel better, for whatever good it does.

whenever possible, I improve the skill I used a lot or get the one I wish I had the in the last run. That's for non-awakened ofc.
For those unpriviliged burdened with BP chargen, buying specializations is probably the first thing to do.

1) Join a Group
2) Initiate
3) Raise Magic



Bye
Thanee

If using BP chargen the most economical (read 'powergaming') approach is to save diversifying until after chargen. This is because BP costs are linear whilst Karma costs are not.

For me it depends on the character (not as in archetype) I decided on. Ie. I go by what the character wants, not what I would want if I were a runner.

Yep. It really depends on the character. For some attributes will be most important, for others raising their important skills. Then there are those that would prefer to cover any shortcomings first and so learn new stuff.

There is no single answer to this question.

Bye
Thanee

Most of the time I forget about it and let it pile up. Then sometimes I realize I've got a whole lot of karma and usually raise an attribute.

Yeah sorry, didn't mean to imply there was. Was more just curious is all. To me it seems to come down to "Do I want to start making improvements right away, or save up for some larger improvements?" For example, training a new skill and raising it up to a rating of 4 will take, on average, about 5-6 runs depending on your group and GM. But at the end, you'll be much better at a single single skill than you were before. By contrast, raising a skill from 4 to 6 will take just as long, but yield less total improvement (but will max you out in that skill -- with the exception of gear/ware upgrades of course).

I totally understand the different answers though. A rigger for instance, isn't usually too reliant on her ability scores, and may well be pretty set on the rigging skills depending on the particular game, so may be able to branch out into other skills (picking up some other Matrix skills or even a few combat, social, or technical skills). Or, they could choose just to become the ultimate in rigging and max out Gunnery, Infiltration, Pilot and Mechanics (though the mechanic skill seems to be one that's better left at a low level to me).

By contrast, the Street Sammie is probably going to want to invest more in abilities (whether through Karma or ware) and only then worry about branching out into new skills (after all, more boxes mean harder to kill).

So yeah, was more a curiosity on my part than anything.

Having five active character across 2xPBP, 2xTabletop Games and Missions, I find that the specifics of the runs the characters are involved in influence my decisions. For example, my Missions character (mage) bought quiet a few new spells early on, raises an attribute or two, a few skill changes, then joined a group and initiated several times. That falls in line with the diversification Aerospider mentioned above. In fact, he just bought two more spells after the last Mission. My hacker in one of the PBP game continues to gently diversify his skill set and save toward raising attributes making future choices based upon what would have been most effective in the previous run.

Generally, I would say diversification is the primary spend for me. Many times starting characters last a lot of diversity if they are reasonably good in one area.

*waits for CanRay to stop by and bemoan lack of gaming* I'm gonna be in the same boat as CanRay; I'm typically the GM, not the PC; the one game I'm a PC in is a nWoD Changeling game, where I tend to split between small exp purchases and big ones.

I usually have one or two things which I needed to cut short during chargen, those obviously are the first to be increased. The rest is a crystal-clear "depends"

I don´t have a special way. I always try to save the karma for bigger advancements, but then reality sets in and i raise something else. Right at the moment i am switching between the thoughts if i either initiate or better learn some spells and quicken them afterwards.

Heh, that's me in D&D, I am almost always the DM. Fortunately I have a very good GM for Shadowrun who at least seems to enjoy running it.

Haven't had a PC in any P&P game for 15 years, except for a very brief stint in the 'Cage Fight' game here on dumpshock.

At my table, ppl usually raise their dumpstat first or save up for that first initiation. After that it's adding skills, as needed.

Why is the Karma gen better then BP gen?

Ive never had a problem with BP.

I wouldn't say 'better'...it's different.

Both ways have their drawbacks and benefits.

The part about it that is "better" is, that the cost to gain anything is the same during character generation as it is during play.

It leads to more balanced/diversified characters, which generally feel more natural and "realistic". You get what you pay for.

That, at least, is what makes it "better" for some people.

Bye
Thanee

Which raises an interesting question in and of itself, is there any stat that assuming you don't have any skills associated with it that you can afford to let linger at the bottom? Obviously body and wisdom always have their uses and agility, reaction and intuition are good to raise as well, but what about stats like logic, strength and cha?

I frankly don't believe Strength should be a stand alone attribute at all given the way Shadowrun is currently written and balanced. The burly metas have good reason to stand pat at their base scores and the smoothies are probably better served picking up Synthacardium and maybe some Muscle Augs if they're worried about being able to perform basic athletic feats. Such things provide a lot more bang for your buck than blowing a part of your BP cap on having muscles in a setting that features drone technology and shock pads that can be surgically installed along your palms and knuckles in a discreet outpatient procedure.

I diversify a lot at first, I like having a wide range of skills to fall back on. Then I will start raising my core skills and attributes, and finally go back to diversifying.

Charisma is too useful, at least at my tables. Most of my players want to make use of their contacts and a few social skills - not to mention resistance for social skills, and Judge Intentions tests and Composure tests.

Logic - almost anything involving computers is Logic, and it's useful for many knowledge skills, as well as memory tests

Strength is useful for Melee damage, Recoil compensation, Running and Swimming, and Lifting/Carrying tests.

I very rarely see any of these three left at a rating of 1, and even 2s are rare. However, it's often useful for orks, dwarves and trolls to keep strength as a dumpstat if they aren't heavy combat types, and for elves to keep Charisma as a dumpstat unless they are face-types.

Hmm... not sure I would consider it a "dumpstat" then, since you actually pay for it via your race.

Bye
Thanee

Wtf, are you even serious?

Quite obviously, as Thanee pointed out, Karmagen of course is not just beter, it's the only worthy Chargen system.
BP is the shit. Have you never wondered while they introduce another 'currency' for generating, thats not related to Karma in any fixed rate? That then leads to all kinds of absurd decision when building a char?

Honestly, BP is unusable. It should never have been printed. It introduces just another layer of complexity, that doesnt even make any sense and is not coherent with the rest of the rules.

Also, i see 1's and 2's in Str, Log and Cha all the time for that matter.
Plus, elves are not worth it if you dont want to use their Cha, that +1 Agi can be gotten elsewhere.



Well, if I just go trolled: Good Job, Sir.
If not: Use KarmaGen from now on. Please.

Karma gen is a much later introduction than BPs (and before BPs it was Priority system). It's good though, but not perfect...

Oh, and saying that something 'is the shit' means it's really good...

I think you're trolling yourself, what with all the hyperbole. BP is far from perfect and I much prefer using KarmaGen when running an extended campaign in which character advancement is the norm. But with that said, KarmaGen's scaling costs and cheap opportunities to load up on multiple low end skills and specializations means that chargen tends to take longer and the book keeping is fair bit less transparent. Those are not inconsiderable drawbacks, particularly when dealing with new players who don't have all the point caps and such memorized yet. If you're only running a short campaign or one shot with minimal power advancement then the drawbacks of the BP system are frankly not a very big deal. At that point the worst problem is that the system favors specialization to a higher degree than many people are comfortable with, but that is a different kettle of fish than having a system that is "unusable."

I will do you one as well...
WtF? Not everyone needs Karma Gen to make an effective charater...
While KarmaGen can make a slightly more rounded character, I have had no problems making effective characters with BP either. BP is FAR FROM UNUSEABLE. It is all in the concept, and the execution of such, from my experience.

While BP can make more specialized characters cheaper, if you resist the temptation to go as high as you can go, it also makes some not to bad generalists as well. They both have strengths and weaknesses, of course. *shrug*

Of course you can make "effective" chars in BP, never thought one couldn't. I just don't see any strengths in BP whatsoever. Just use an automatic charsheet (like that from DamienKnight here in the Forums) if it's too complicated for your taste otherwise. Of course it's true that in the beginning only BP existed. But today, there's really no reason to use it anymore. I mean, the players should know char advancement rules nevertheless for later. So why use an alternative system instead of the one that is persistent throughout the game?

BTW, it was the same story in SR3 back then when they introduced Karma Gen there as well. I seriously have no clue why they brought back BP and - *gasp* - even priority system with version 4 at all.

Because not everyone agrees with you?

*shrug* Either one works fine. It's not a competitive game or anything, so who cares? I liked Priority fine in SR3, as well. They're all just equivalent.

Just for the record: They are totally not equivalent as is shown by simple maths.

Depends upon your End Goals, of Course...

Didn't say numerically equivalent. They're equivalent in that they're all chargens, and they work fine. They start at the same place (no character) and end at the same place (new character), and that's all they're supposed to do.

I fill up the gap in my defenses, perhaps I bought to much armor and not enough magic defense?

First thing I will do is raise my WILL, or try and purchase a Surge Quality for Astral Hazing or its like.

Perhaps I bought to much magic Defense and not enough Armor?

Raise my Body, buy PQ's that increase my damage resistence

etc etc etc

I usually buy the right skills for my character during creation, or use my money to buy the skills I don't have, so normally I spend my Karma on making me tougher to kill.

That they are not equivalent does not mean that one is head and shoulders better than the other. They're just different.

I'm working on something right now to kill named Dragons, here is what I got so far by using BP. Personally I love the BP system as it is streamlined and effective.
As for Karmagen you can do some CRAZY things with it that you normally cannot do at game start...such as Initiating your magical character. Everyone draws the line somewhere but Karmagen is basically easy mode, and I like a challenge.

DISCLAIMER: This character is not complete, it is simply a shadow of what it will become and is purely for theoretical purposes. I have a number of scenarios to think on and items to get, please don't tell me why something wont work if it is a theoretical unknown. This is all done from memory so I do not have exact numbers for certain things as of right now, if I am not sure of something I will place a ** next to it. Any numbers in parenthesis are gained from spells/effects.

Atlas: Nosferatu Human Mystic Adept (Voodo Tradition)
38 BP left to spend

Str (9)
Agi (9)** or (13)** or (17)** Agi 9 or 10 if I stay in Vamp Form =(
Bod (9)
Rea (9)
Will (13)
Log (13)**
Int (13)**
Cha (13)
Edge 6
Magic 5 (13) (2 Power Points, 3 Spells)
Initiative 34**+4IP
Essence 6 (18)

PQ's:
Mystic Adept 10
Aptitude (Long Arms) 10
Martial Arts 5
Restricted Gear 5
5 left

NQ's:
In Debt 35

Maneuvers:
???
Setup

Spells x14:---All Spells/Spirits at F20 if needed, 12 minimum hits, use edge as needed /*-EDIT/*-I can only have 10 spells
Critter Form (Human)
Increase Reflexes
Increase (LOG,WILL,INT,CHA)
Analyze Device
Levitate
Imp Invis
Hawk? Eye
Chamelon
Crank
Nutrition
???

Powers:
Increase Longarms x3
.5 ???

Skills:
Long Arms 10+2
Sorcery 5+2
Summoning 5+2

Contact:
6/6 Technomancer

Misc:
Vamp Powers

185,000k Spending Money---:
Items Needed---:
Electronic Sniper Rifle with Range Mods, Full Auto (assuming Model 121)
TAC Net (Freeware)
Some Drones with Clearsoft
Sustaining Focus x??
Misc equipment
Tracer Rounds (F20 Spirit Posses at least 1)
Renfield x??

+ To Hit in optimal situation:
AGI 9/13/17** AGI 9
Analyze Device +20
Long Arms+10
Spec +2
Smart Link +2//Laser Sight+1
Tracer Rounds +3
Setup +10
Edge +6
Rule of 6 +17 (average hits)
Teamwork Bonus +10
Take Aim +1
TAC +4
Large Target +5

Total+83
Total adding Edge +90
Total hits using Edge with Rerolls: Average of 32
Total extra hits by using Edge when adding +17
Minimum Damage with Possessed Bullet and/or Gun +32, -1/2 AP
32 Hits +41(long Narrow Burst) Damage = 64P -1/2 AP from 1600+ Meters away
Assuming all numbers average each Dragon from Street Legends will die in 1 hit
Disclaimer: Does not include penalty's to shoot, assumes I can see my target

I'm still working on him and he is by far incomplete, but as you can see you can do some nice things with just BP, and the upside is that it is done very quickly as opposed to Karmagen that slows you down by keeping track of numbers.

I become a god. I figured out how to do it with only 35 karma. I'm the reason that Ancient History was going to add in this to a magic sourcebook in progress:


Off the top of my head....
Agility 10.
Analyze Device: I highly disagree with the application.
Smart Link/Laser Sight can't stack.
Nosferatu max Edge is 7.
Setup... What do you mean?
Teamwork Bonus... from whom?
Take Aim can go up to +3.

My tally is 48 before setup/teamwork/Rule of 6.

I'll let you fix how possessed weapons don't really do what you are thinking... maybe...

I far prefer BP to KarmaGen - I find it simpler and more streamlined. Also I think that the KarmaGen benchmark of 750 karma was way too high in comparison to 400 BP; admittedly this can easily be fixed by lowering the value to 600 (which I would consider roughly equating to 400BP), but then PCs might feel they were being screwed or something.

I do use a set of house rules to curb potential min-maxing tendencies of players within the BP Gen system, if anyone's interested I would be happy to post them. But more than this, for me the character sheet has to seem plausible enough to fit the character's background to get the GM stamp of approval to play in my sandbox, and in this way more than anything cardboard-cutout one trick ponies and STR 1 ex-Special Ops characters get consigned to the rubbish bin.

Not even going to get started on your cardboard cutout monstrosity of a pseudo-character. All I will point out is that the Critter Form spell is restricted to critters, which are defined in SR as non-sentient, so metahuman Critter Form is out by RAW.

I find this very odd - what does it matter to you how other people run their games?

There is no inherent reason why chargen should or shouldn't be in line with in-game advancement because there's no indication that chargen is advancing characters retrospectively from birth. However the PCs got to their starting point and however much karma they must have spent in the process, the sole requirement of chargen is to make all character options balanced with each other and this question is not answered by a comparison of the two (three with Priority) systems.

I'll echo the sentiments that karma gen vs. BP gen are different, but neither is inherently better. Karmagen has the nice appeal of making it pretty easy for a player to see exactly how much it will cost her to increase her stats, but it doesn't necessarily make it better for all. I think BP gen goes a little bit quicker and is certainly good for making more specialized characters (in my opinion). To each their own.

Most of the time (outside of a few hyperspecialized chars), a BP character redone in karmagen will have 100 to 150 spare karma. Plus with karma you can initiate/submerge at chargen which can lead to much more powerful characters (especially for TM).

But as long as everyone around the table use the same system, it doesn't really matter.

...which only indicates that the suggested starting karma-level creates more powerful starting characters than the suggested starting BP-level. Which in turn may suggest that starting karma level is set too high, given that BP was first...

If more powerful characters is your single goal, then yes - karma gen may well be 'better'.

Wait, stop! I never read the topics about karmagen vs. BP because there seemed to be no big difference, but having 100-150 karma left if you redo a BP char in Charmagen is massive. Before i start with rebuilding my current chars. with karmagen, please give me a verification about that. Thank you.

Are you using the printed version (i.e. Attribute Cost = New Rating x3)?

To my knowledge it has never been updated to SR4A officially.


There is a post somewhere around here from Ancient Knowledge (IIRC), explaining what changes are necessary to make it SR4A viable (most notably the cost to raise Attributes should be x5, and then some stuff about metatypes). I would also add to those changes, that the limit of half Karma for Attributes only applies to Physical and Mental Attributes, but not to Special Attributes (just like under the BP system).


The german version of the Runner Companion has the updated rules already, but the english original does not, and I don't think they exist as errata or FAQ (though maybe I am wrong there?).

Bye
Thanee

@Machiavelli: I've seen this happen with my last 3 characters. And that was after optimizing the characters for the BP system.
There are a few cases where a 400BP char will be worth more than 650 karma points, so if you're just looking to get the most powerful option, just do your character with one method, convert in the other and see where you've got points left.

But if all you're looking is the most powerful character, it's even easier to ignore creation rules and put "OVER 9000" everywhere.

EDIT:
@Thanee: yes, it's using the latest rules (Attribute cost x5, metatype cost taken into account and so on).

You know that the most powerful character is always my goal, but always "within the rules". Not mainly because i am a powergamer, but because the more powerful the char. is, the higher is the chance that he survives long enough to enable good roleplaying. So i will check my medusa-char. with the karmagen system and then i will see if there are significant changes. I will keep you updated....a new hope in the powergamer heaven rises.....*shudder*.

If you're powergaming, then it depends on several factors: is the GM letting Karmagen have access to post-chargen options for no good reason (usually yes); is the GM giving your more karma than you need (750? yes); is the GM using the wrong Attrib costs, or giving away free races? Hehe. Basically, the bad GM can really mess with karmagen's balance (as Blade and Thanee mentioned).

This may no longer be the case, but it used to be the BPgen was better at disgusting powergamer minmaxing, and then you could 'cheaply' fill in the gaps with karma post-gen. (You see the same effect in any system that has linear chargen costs, but increasing experience-point costs, like Exalted/WOD.) I've seen a whole thread here about 'getting the most value' out of BPgen, for example. In theory, anyway, karmagen is not meant to be 'stronger', but to encourage well-rounded characters (by punishing very high skills and attribs).

What is often neglected from consideration is that this relies on a GM who doesn't up the threat level as the PCs get stronger. You have to ask the question "Would the NPC stats be the same if I were 100BP lighter?" If the answer is no then chargen optimisation is a waste of time except that your dice rolls need bigger hands.

Also, I'd be interested to learn how you define "good roleplaying" in such a way that it requires surviving for a minimum length of time. No facetiousness here, I'm honestly curious. In my current campaign the rigger was a vivid and unique character that provided a lot of fun for all over only two adventures before going out in a blaze of glory (caused tragically by a simple misunderstanding that led him to take out a key pawn in the fight to save humanity).

About that - are you saying Karmagen should be charging for races at the usual rate of 2:1? I thought the idea was that the race was free because of the extra cost in raising their boosted attributes.

I think most people split the difference (1:1)? You're right that it depends a lot on the precise method used; I know in other threads, we've discussed the difference between adding the race bonuses before or after buying attribs. Some people complain this leads to 'weak orks' and things, when people take a free race with no intention of raising their stats to the expensive levels; they really are getting something for nothing. It also depends on whether a given race's strengths are in attributes, or somewhere else (in which case, they won't pay for those), and so on.

My main point is that BPgen and Karmagen are *intended* to be equivalent, whether or not the specific details all work out right. If your table finds that they're not equivalent, and you get someone like Machi scheming to abuse it… just fix it. Lower the Karma/BP equivalence, charge more (or less) for races, whatever is needed. I don't think there's ever a reason to allow Initiation/Submersion/etc. for Karmagen (and not BPgen), assuming you even want those things in chargen at all.