Full Version: Ambidexterity, adepts, and off-hand weapons
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Yes it is, just slightly more versatile. To mimick Pain Resistance 1 (0.5 PP) exactly you have to spend at least 4 Build Points to get High Pain Tolerance 2. 0.5/4 = 0.125 Power Points per Edge point. |
High Pain Tolerance is not "just slightly more versatile". To a character that has taken only physical or only stun damage it may as well be equivalent to an equal level of Pain Resistance. A character with High Pain Tolerance 6 can tolerate a Serious Physical wound with no modifiers while a character with a power you claim it is equivalent to would be on +2 to all TNs.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Night Vision, despite your clutching to it being a 1-point edge for some characters (which is just lame since anyone can claim to be a decker with or without a datajack or even a Computers skill), it is a 2-point Edge for "adept" characters. Night Vision costs 2 Build Points, while Improved Sense: Low-Light Vision costs 0.25 Power Points. 0.25/2 = 0.125 Power Points per Edge point. |
Although an adept could quite easily be a real rigger if they had a VCR implanted, or a real decker if they had a deck and actually decked once in a while. With the fact that you can learn to use centering for technical and vehicle skills they can actually become better riggers and deckers than mundanes.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Bonus Attribute Point isn't close enough to Improved Physical Attribute to be a valid comparison. Bonus Attribute Point is always 2 Build Points and can be applied to six Attributes, while Improved Physical Attribute goes from 0.5 to 1.0 in certain circumstances and can be applied to the same attribute multiple times, but only towards three out of six Attributes. But for an average character, that still comes out roughly the same. 2 Build Points for Bonus Attribute Point (available for six attributes at 3) vs. Improved Physical Attribute for 0.5 Build Points (available for only three attributes). (0.5/half as many attributes)/2 = 0.125 Power Points per Edge point. Yes, it does have varying costs, but I'm just pointing this one out. |
LOL. Bonus attribute point is no more distant from Improved Physical Attribute than High Pain Tolerance is from Pain Resistance. In some ways it's closer. What makes one example valid and the other not? The fact that the Improved Physical Attribute power may only be applied to 3 attributes does not make it half as valuable and I would thank you for not using such a ridiculous quasi-logical argument. I may as-well say that because you can buy multiple levels of Improved Physical Attribute then it is indefinately more valuable. The simple fact is that it sets a presidence for the cost of increasing physical attributes using an edge.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| By that logic, you could say that Ambidexterity 3 is worth only 0.5 Build Points, since it can also only provide just +1 dice (for anyone with a Melee Skill of 3 or lower). Likewise, you can also claim that Ambidexterity 3 is worth 500 Build Points since it can also provide +100 dice in extreme not-bloody-likely-in-any-real-game examples. It's a pointless exercise; it gives a flat bonus of +50% dice. There's no comparing it in that fashion since few other powers work that way. |
Why not have a varying power point cost depending on what melee skills they have? Or, and this suggestion isn't retarded like the last one, why not decide on a standard point cost that isn't broken for most characters that can be expected to take it? Ambidexterity 3 for 0.75pp is very much broken when you consider what it can give a starting character. If you actually want to balance the power then true considerations are really what it can give a character rather than what some characters with arbitrary (particularily low or high) stats might recieve. As with much in the rules, it will be possible to twink cyber/bio/power/magic sets to achieve better results. Why, however, should a point cost be applied to this power that allows starting characters to recieve superior bonuses to a power that already exists whilst spending half of what they would on the other power? That is Broken, clean and simple. Hey: Even at 0.5/level it is broken, albeit not as much, as after the first 2 ranks of improved ability (on-top of 6 skill) you can spend 1.5 to get +4 dice rather than the standard +3 improved ability would give for that sum.
if ambidex cost .25 per level, i seriously can't imagine a combat-oriented adept that wouldn't take it. there's hardly any choice; it adds to nearly every combat skill an adept might take, across the board--the only thing it wouldn't help is two-handed weapons. at .5 per level, or the scaling costs i suggested, there's at least a little bit of weighing the costs. if something is so good that anyone who could get it would get it, then there's something wrong.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| The melee benefit is significant enough for it to cost .5 per level, IMO. Getting this at level 3 (1.5 Power Points) provides three extra dice when you have skill 6 and two weapons, identical in cost and bonus dice to three levels of improved ability. |
(emphasis mine)
This is perhaps (IMO) one of the best reasons for it being .5 pts/level. Kudos, toturi
Also, mfb, good arguments re: everyone taking it.
I feel that ambidexterity (esp in combat) is a skill/power that seems VERY adept-ish. While that might simply be something that one decides to spend karma on, instead of using initiation, the bonuses of initiation in general would make this a very good thing to get for adepts _anyways_ - even if it were marginally more cost effective to get as an edge.
What's the karma cost for 2 initiations? =) Is it close to the cost to get an 8 point edge? (I think that's 40karma, but I could be wrong?)
On a side note ... how does ambidexterity stack with improved skill? if I have an ambidextrous adept (let's call him Andy), with ambidexterity (full), 6 skill in edged weapons, and improved skill (edged weapons) at ... say ... 4 ranks (enough points left to have improved reflexes or something else fun
), how many dice would he be rolling in a two-weapon attack?would it be ...
1.5 x (6+4) (15) or (1.5 x 6) + 4 (13)? I think it should probably be the former, but I am also completely uneducated on the details of the ambidexterity edge and how it's applied to melee combat. =)
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) | ||
That was before Shockwave pointed out that High Pain Tolerance was only half as effective as Pain Resistance. Now 0.25/level is on exactly the same power level; 0.5 is twice as expensive as the Edge. |
Curious, I thought you'd thrown out the notion of creating a conversion rate. Well here are some more comparisons:
Flexibility, .5 PP; Double Jointed, 1 Edge point
1BP = .5 PP
Direction Sense, .25PP; Sense of Direction, 1 Edge Point
1BP = .25 PP
Magic Resistance, 1PP; Magic Resistance, 1 Edge Point
1 BP = 1 PP (different I admit, but can you say that the adept version is truly 8 times as useful as the mundane version, which is required to bring you down to the 2BP:.25PP ratio that you advocate?)
Improved Physical Attribute, .5PP-1PP; Bonus Attribute Point, 2 Edge Points
at best, 2BP = .5 PP
I hope this helps! And by "helps", I mean helps to show that it is bloody impossible to settle on a consistent conversion rate.
| QUOTE (gknoy) |
| This is perhaps (IMO) one of the best reasons for it being .5 pts/level. Kudos, toturi |
Thanks Dave Thomas, founder of Wendys
| QUOTE (gknoy @ Apr 13 2004, 01:00 AM) |
| What's the karma cost for 2 initiations? =) Is it close to the cost to get an 8 point edge? (I think that's 40karma, but I could be wrong?) |
2 initiations is about 30 karma, to "buy" (if gm allows) an 8 point edge is 80 karma, if you use the same rate as for buying off flaws
| QUOTE |
On a side note ... how does ambidexterity stack with improved skill? if I have an ambidextrous adept (let's call him Andy), with ambidexterity (full), 6 skill in edged weapons, and improved skill (edged weapons) at ... say ... 4 ranks (enough points left to have improved reflexes or something else fun ), how many dice would he be rolling in a two-weapon attack? |
skill at 6 plus Improve skill at 4 with ambidex 4 (note in this instance you only need ambidex 3
) would net you..10 to start with only one weapon
plus half skill and half ability rounded down so 5 extra dice so..
15 Dice before Combat pool of which you can add upto...6 (equal to the primary skill)
And by the by, the cost in my game is gonna be .5/1/2/4 if you don't like it then i'll just remove the none Canon power from the game.
*If i throw you a bone, I don't want to know how good it taste's*
| QUOTE |
| What's the karma cost for 2 initiations? =) Is it close to the cost to get an 8 point edge? (I think that's 40karma, but I could be wrong?) |
It's 10 karma per point, so 80 for an 8 points edge.
Find the listing for what you're willing to do to lower the price, if at all. Then find the grade you are aiming for. The number list is how much karma that grade will cost you.
No group or ordeal
Grade 1: 18
Grade 2: 21
Grade 3: 24
Grade 4: 27
Grade 5: 30
Grade 6: 33
Grade 7: 36
Grade 8: 39
Grade 9: 42
Grade 10: 45
No group but ordeal
Grade 1: 15
Grade 2: 17.5
Grade 3: 20
Grade 4: 22.5
Grade 5: 25
Grade 6: 27.5
Grade 7: 30
Grade 8: 32.5
Grade 9: 35
Grade 10: 37.5
Group but no ordeal
Grade 1: 12
Grade 2: 14
Grade 3: 16
Grade 4: 18
Grade 5: 20
Grade 6: 22
Grade 7: 24
Grade 8: 26
Grade 9: 28
Grade 10: 30
Group and ordeal
Grade 1: 9
Grade 2: 10.5
Grade 3: 12
Grade 4: 13.5
Grade 5: 15
Grade 6: 16.5
Grade 7: 18
Grade 8: 19.5
Grade 9: 21
Grade 10: 22.5
Topically, I'm in the '.5 PP per level will not break the game'. Probably not .25 either, but my games aren't the best judges of breakability. GMs I play with include a few really broken adept powers, but because the players have thus far either not realized how abusive they are or are just ignoring how abusive they can be, they haven't been a problem. Adepts...generally aren't my thing.
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