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Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 20 2012, 02:17 AM) *
As with all spellcasting, anyone who was around when Bob cast the spell get to make a Perception (1) test to notice the spellcasting.

Shouldn't it be a Perception (6-Force) test to notice the casting? Now you can get bonuses to this test as well like being awakened, astrally perceiving, and if the caster has a shamanic mask (+2 from any and all of them).
phlapjack77
I think the confusing thing tends to be that most other spells (and spells in other games / literature) are Subject: caster, Target: designated by the caster, whilest SR Detection spells are Subject: designated by the caster, Target: designated by the subject (EXCEPT MP, apparently smile.gif)

If only SR writers asked my advice...
CanRay
OK, new question same topic: Is there BTL of someone suffering from this spell? vegm.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 19 2012, 11:45 PM) *
OK, new question same topic: Is there BTL of someone suffering from this spell? vegm.gif


Almost certainly. I imagine it's pretty popular, too... You know, among the kind of people who like the vicariously live someone else's horrific moments cranked up to eleven. I can't for the life of me see how such a thing might remotely be addictive.
Yerameyahu
Anything on a BTL is addictive, because of the high-powered simsense. BTL Watching-Grass-Grow. smile.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 19 2012, 11:53 PM) *
BTL Watching-Grass-Grow. smile.gif
Perfect for the Sprawl Dweller who doesn't have a lawn.

Just rock back and forth in that rocking chair and watch the grass grow. And shoot at insurance salesmen.
Midas
The spell description definitely says the victim knows their mind has been invaded, and I definitely play up this "mind rape" connotation on my table. As SnowRaven noted, even if the victim was unconscious at the time they should feel that someone has rifled through their subconscious, with all the feelings of violation being physically raped or having your house burgled has. I would agree that the degree of this feeling would depend on the force of the spell or net hits or a combination of the two.

You can bet your arse that Corp security will be aware of the potential for compromised security from Mind Probe, and will have their employees drilled to report to Security if they even suspect they might have been a victim of the spell. This is why it is often used in conjunction with Alter Memories.

I think voluntary submission to the spell would be somewhat different and, because the probee is not mentally resisting, the feeling of violation would be much less (depending on the memories unearthed, the probee might feel profoundly embarrassed for example).
snowRaven
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 20 2012, 05:07 AM) *
Almost certainly. I imagine it's pretty popular, too... You know, among the kind of people who like the vicariously live someone else's horrific moments cranked up to eleven. I can't for the life of me see how such a thing might remotely be addictive.


Well...fear releases all kinds of nice chemicals in the body, and when it's 'safe' and not actually a violation of you, and you can stop at any time (no really, I can--I'm not like those chipheads, I'm in control...), then the temptation could possibly get too much.

Kind of how some people like being scared by horror movies.
UmaroVI
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Mar 19 2012, 10:26 PM) *
Shouldn't it be a Perception (6-Force) test to notice the casting? Now you can get bonuses to this test as well like being awakened, astrally perceiving, and if the caster has a shamanic mask (+2 from any and all of them).

It was Force 5 in my example, 6-5 = 1.
Paul
Okay what if the caster is behind one way glass? Like say inside a car, up on a highway as the target is down below, in a parking lot. This was an actual scenario we ran.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Paul @ Mar 21 2012, 02:42 AM) *
Okay what if the caster is behind one way glass? Like say inside a car, up on a highway as the target is down below, in a parking lot. This was an actual scenario we ran.


If you cannot immediately see the spell worker, and you know you are being probed (which you do), stop, drop and roll under or near a car (you did specify a parking lot, right?). Once LOS is broken you will know (The sensation of having your mind probed will stop). Then re-evaluate and move, if possible. smile.gif
snowRaven
Question is, is line of sight even needed?

The sense is directional, so LOS to the subject may be necessary, but it's not sight--it's a new sense. Also, the target is specified when casting the spell, so I does the magician pick the target? If so, the subject may or may not need to see the target as long as the magician did once the spell was cast.

I much prefered the way the spell worked in 2nd edition (touch range, magician probed subject - more successes meant more questions answered), or even 3rd for that matter (LOS, which had to be maintained, magician probed subject, one piece of information each pass)...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 21 2012, 07:39 AM) *
Question is, is line of sight even needed?

The sense is directional, so LOS to the subject may be necessary, but it's not sight--it's a new sense. Also, the target is specified when casting the spell, so I does the magician pick the target? If so, the subject may or may not need to see the target as long as the magician did once the spell was cast.

I much prefered the way the spell worked in 2nd edition (touch range, magician probed subject - more successes meant more questions answered), or even 3rd for that matter (LOS, which had to be maintained, magician probed subject, one piece of information each pass)...


Though you gain information via Mind Probe via telepathic connection, it is not a Psychic Sense.

QUOTE (SR4A, Detection Spells)
Detection spells are either directional (like normal sight), area effect (work in all directions at once, like hearing), or psychic (providing some other special “sense” such as telepathy or precognition). Additionally the sense is either active or passive (see below).


Becuse it is a Directional Spell, it is treated like Normal Sight. Thus you need to SEE your target to make that connection. If you cannot see him, you cannot connect with him. This makes a lot of sense. And maintains a bit of continuity not only with previous editions, but with how magic in 4th Edition often works (Direct Spells NEED LOS to affect the target). Magic has become a bit more powerful by 4th edition, which is why Mind probe no longer requires physical contact, like in 2nd. *Shrug*
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 21 2012, 08:54 AM) *
Though you gain information via Mind Probe via telepathic connection, it is not a Psychic Sense.



Becuse it is a Directional Spell, it is treated like Normal Sight. Thus you need to SEE your target to make that connection. If you cannot see him, you cannot connect with him. This makes a lot of sense. And maintains a bit of continuity not only with previous editions, but with how magic in 4th Edition often works (Direct Spells NEED LOS to affect the target). Magic has become a bit more powerful by 4th edition, which is why Mind probe no longer requires physical contact, like in 2nd. *Shrug*



This brings to mind a question ive been meaning to ask. LOS is needed in many spells, but is LOE?
in other words, can you fire a stun ball around a corner using say, mage sight goggles or a camera?
Draco18s
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 21 2012, 09:18 AM) *
in other words, can you fire a stun ball around a corner using say, mage sight goggles or a camera?


Mage sight goggles, mirrors: yes, specifically
Cameras: no, specifically
Eugene
A bit tangential perhaps, but Mind Probe recently came up in my game. The PCs had captured a Triad gang member who had loyalty tattoos, and so they decided to use MP to access the person's thoughts (had 5 net successes, so they had access to pretty much everything). I ruled that the loyalty tattoos didn't activate and fry the guy because he didn't make a conscious choice to betray his Triad. He didn't want to, but it didn't matter.
Aerospider
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 20 2012, 02:42 AM) *
It does seem strange, that Detection spells allow a different subject than the caster...makes things much more confusing, and it seems...wrong. Why can a caster give Clairvoyance to a different person? Strange strange strange

I don't think it's odd at all. The spell is designed to bestow an extra sense in the same way that Improve Attribute bestows an increase in attribute rating. Imagine if Increase Reflexes or, God forbid, Heal were restricted to the caster only.
Yerameyahu
On the other hand, things would still be fine if Detection spells were caster-only. It's just a thematic and (slightly) power-level choice, really. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Mar 22 2012, 03:02 PM) *
I don't think it's odd at all. The spell is designed to bestow an extra sense in the same way that Improve Attribute bestows an increase in attribute rating. Imagine if Increase Reflexes or, God forbid, Heal were restricted to the caster only.


Not really the same.

How it works:

Target of a heal spell: touch range.
Target's effect: heals boxes.

Target of a detection spell: touch range.
Target's effect: able to perceive stuff

How it's worded:

Target of a heal spell: touch range.
Target's effect: heals boxes.

Target of a detection spell: touch range.
Target's effect: perceived by the caster.

I mean, just look at mind probe. Who's the target of a mental rape spell? Probably the guy you want to dig memories out of, right?

WRONG! It's the guy doing the digging who can then do it to anyone he can see.
Yerameyahu
Which is weird, yeah. You'd think that spell in particular would target the target. smile.gif Other Detection spells make more sense, because they grant *senses*, not affect targets.
Nath
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2012, 09:13 PM) *
How it's worded:

Target of a detection spell: touch range.
Target's effect: perceived by the caster.

I mean, just look at mind probe. Who's the target of a mental rape spell? Probably the guy you want to dig memories out of, right?

WRONG! It's the guy doing the digging who can then do it to anyone he can see.
Actually, that's not how it's worded. The rules use the word "caster" for the Magician, "subject" for the character who has to be within Touch range and doing the digging, and "target" for the character you want to dig memories out of. The Opposed Test pits the caster dice pool against the target DP.
ShadowDragon8685
So, in theory, you could reduce the drain on Detection spells by learning ones with the super-restricted target of Caster? Although, since the spells are Sustained, I can see why you might want it the original way.




As an aside, I wonder if there's anybody who would pay a mage to Mind Probe them? That might also be a good way to troll a mage; have him Mind Probe you and uncover things he's going to need a dose of Laés or a quick Memory Alteration to forget.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 22 2012, 04:29 PM) *
Actually, that's not how it's worded. The rules use the word "caster" for the Magician, "subject" for the character who has to be within Touch range and doing the digging, and "target" for the character you want to dig memories out of. The Opposed Test pits the caster dice pool against the target DP.


See, that's the problem.

Every other spell is cast on a target and effects targets.

Detection spells are cast on a subject who then detects targets.
snowRaven
Personally, I think someone screwed up with the mind probe description in SR4 - probably in an attempt to make all detection spells work the same.

All previous editions mind probe was cast on the guy you wanted to probe, and the mage did the probing. Other detection spells granted a sense to the target.
Paul
I like some of the possibilities here. Hmmm. Very interesting.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 22 2012, 03:43 PM) *
See, that's the problem.

Every other spell is cast on a target and effects targets.

Detection spells are cast on a subject who then detects targets.


Why is that a problem? You know it is that way, so what is the issue?
Especially since the Subject CAN BE THE CASTER (ie. they can cast it upon themselves)...
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 23 2012, 10:02 AM) *
Especially since the Subject CAN BE THE CASTER (ie. they can cast it upon themselves)...


Yes, and?

Every other spell is cast on a target.

Detection spells are cast on a subject.
CanRay
"Just a moment, I have to get my fetish out for this spell."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 23 2012, 08:06 AM) *
Yes, and?

Every other spell is cast on a target.

Detection spells are cast on a subject.


Yes, And? So What...
Detection Spells ARE DIFFERENT...
As I said, you know it, and it is described IN THE RULES. Why do you care? Why does it bother you?
Grinder
Calm down, ok?
Paul
Maybe I'm misreading all of this-but other spells assume an unwilling target-Fireball, Manabolt, all of that is stuff most people don't want to have happen to them. Now Detection spells are generally speaking things many people would be cool with-obviously not all-hence the verbiage?

Anyways, back on topic has anyone else run into the Mind Probe GM freeze? You know that series of questions you just didn't think of at all?
Yerameyahu
It's just an interesting distinction, and a sort of roundabout way of describing it. Mind Probe *is* very different from Detect Enemies, and you'd really expect it to simply target the victim. In the same way, people tend to get pretty confused about the way Clairvoyance works, even though there's no 'victim'.

It's not just the bad stuff factor, it's the agent/object setup. Heal, Increase Attribute, etc. all target the object (=person); they don't give someone the ability to heal (or to throw fireballs… can you imagine if this method applied to anything but detection?). It does make sense for some detection spells to be different; I'm not sure it makes sense for most/all of them to be different.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 23 2012, 11:12 AM) *
Yes, And? So What...
Detection Spells ARE DIFFERENT...
As I said, you know it, and it is described IN THE RULES. Why do you care? Why does it bother you?


The target of the spell should always be referred to as the target, as it minimizes confusion.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 23 2012, 11:00 AM) *
The target of the spell should always be referred to as the target, as it minimizes confusion.


*Shrug* I see no confusion, personally.
The TARGET IS THE TARGET.
The Subject is not the Target, he is the recipient.
Very Different Things.
Yerameyahu
And that's the issue. smile.gif Clearly, people are at least sometimes confused.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 01:22 PM) *
And that's the issue. smile.gif Clearly, people are at least sometimes confused.


Precisely.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Basic Reading Comprehension... I know it is not taught much in school these days, but... smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 23 2012, 01:27 PM) *
Basic Reading Comprehension... I know it is not taught much in school these days, but... smile.gif


Basic Consistency... I know it's not taught much in schools these days, but... smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 23 2012, 11:54 AM) *
Basic Consistency... I know it's not taught much in schools these days, but... smile.gif


Detection Spells DON'T NEED to be consistent, they are Different. And that is Okay. smile.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 23 2012, 01:27 PM) *
Basic Reading Comprehension... I know it is not taught much in school these days, but... smile.gif
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 23 2012, 01:54 PM) *
Basic Consistency... I know it's not taught much in schools these days, but... smile.gif
Common Sense, so rare it's a $deity damned superpower.
Yerameyahu
Haha. You guys are incredible. The point is that people *are* sometimes confused, and that it's a very odd mechanic for spells like Mind Probe (which would more intuitively be understood as a simple caster-victim setup). The fact that not everyone is confused is… good for them? No one's suggesting a constitutional amendment.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 02:44 PM) *
Haha. You guys are incredible. The point is that people *are* sometimes confused, and that it's a very odd mechanic for spells like Mind Probe (which would more intuitively be understood as a simple caster-victim setup). The fact that not everyone is confused is… good for them? No one's suggesting a constitutional amendment.


And that more intuitively understood caster-victim setup is likely the most common application of the spell anyways, which means this constant sniping is pretty irrelevant. Fortunately, it does not HAVE TO BE a Caster-Victim setup, it CAN be Subject-Victim Setup. Which the game allows for.
Yerameyahu
I haven't seen any constant sniping. I just see people talking about 'hey, this is kinda weird, huh?'. smile.gif It's not a call to arms or anything, so you don't need to defend the default rules… they're not under attack.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 03:51 PM) *
I haven't seen any constant sniping. I just see people talking about 'hey, this is kinda weird, huh?'. smile.gif It's not a call to arms or anything, so you don't need to defend the default rules… they're not under attack.


Point Taken... Maybe I read a bit more into the context than was there. Bleed over from the Hacking Thread perhaps. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
As an aside, I half-mentioned this earlier: I kinda like the idea of mages *not* being able to grant powers (specifically, Detection spell effects) to other people (just as a general rule/thematic issue).

Has this really come up in anyone's games, and would it screw them up if the mage couldn't grant people senses? (Also, you could use another spell to 'share senses' from the mage, under this variant.)
Paul
We use it on a semi regular basis, and it's not ruined our fun yet.
Yerameyahu
No, I meant: do you frequently use Detection spells with non-caster subjects ('users'), and would removing that option be bad?
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 01:12 AM) *
No, I meant: do you frequently use Detection spells with non-caster subjects ('users'), and would removing that option be bad?


Well, you wouldn't be able to give the street sam a sustaining foci with Enhance Aim...if that's bad or good would depend on the game.
Yerameyahu
You can't do that anyway (you have to carry your own foci… AFAIK?). I'm just asking about Detection spells (granting extra senses; I wouldn't consider Enhance Aim as that) cast on 3rd parties. smile.gif Buffs are still fine.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2012, 02:27 AM) *
Basic Reading Comprehension... I know it is not taught much in school these days, but... smile.gif

Normally you're pretty reasonable, but EVERY SINGLE one of your arguments ever is of the form "My table / I don't have a problem with it, so noone else should".

Different people have different perspectives. Just because people have different perspectives than yours doesn't make them stupid or illiterate. Jeez.
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