But… you don't have to make them up, cuz they're in print. You bought them.

They're about as valid as rules I've made up; they aren't the real rules, they're a booby prize for anyone who happens to dislike the moronic, ill-balanced garbage they let slip into the main book.

Ah, well. But this is really high end. (Like deltaware, adapsin, compability and maybe even a suite and a very nice interpretation of the rules...)

And if you are spending 1 million or two only on your cyberarms and legs, it begs the question what the hell are you running for...

Jeez, tell us how you really feel. The point is that they are real rules, printed in the book for you, and your specific complaint was that you didn't want to make them up, not that you didn't want rules merely as 'valid' as you could make up.

Incidentally, you're completely right: RAW, O-RAW, and house rules are all equally valid. Normal people consider this a good thing.

@JC:Matter of opinion. I understand why they did it that way, I also understand why logic should be a factor. I go with raw cause of the domino effect it had making or using the house rule. I change x, this changes how b works making Technos uber gods, so I house rule B, but this makes technos non-playable etc etc etc.


@ALL: Can we keep the hostility down a notch calling each other names is not what DS is all about. Please?

No, they aren't. They're optional rules.

I think you are being blind here... *shrug*

Optional rules are real rules, really printed in the book (is there even such a thing as a fake rule?). People call them O-RAW. Technically, everything not in SR4A (*and* everything in it, for that matter) is an optional rule, because the books tell you to only use what you like, and to make up your own if they're better for you. You specifically said you didn't want to make up your own.

And again, there's nothing wrong or worse about house rules. Your opinion on this matter is not the majority one, though you're certainly welcome to it. You just don't get to say everyone else is wrong, or that your opinion is fact.

There you go again making assumptions. All of which are totally and completely wrong.
Just because you have 2x the chance to have a glitch does not mean that you actually have a Glitch. There are ways to mitigate that, you know. Having a High Logic is one of the things that helps in that regard. And most of the programs I wrote were not of the Rating 10 Variety. They are of the optimized with options Rating 6 variety. Which take far less time due to a far less threshold. Having a Sleep Regulator also helps, as you only need 3 hours to sleep a night. Etc...

Comlink hardware is only a Days Threshold.
Most hardware is on the order of Days threshold...

I have had issues with fixing/coding/crafting things for the character, but because of the Character's LOGIC 7, they tended to be very minimal. See, Herp A Derp would NEVER be able to do this type of stuff with his moronic Logic of 1; Maybe that is your disconnect. My Gm is fairly strict on such things, and rarely "lets us get away with anything". *shrug*

Again, you are completely wrong here.

I am so going to have to buy a few months of rent for a starting BP character and see what he can do in his pre-running time. Not that it mateers if I ever play him. I just want to see how many rating 6 programs he can come up with.

I would consider Logic 5 sufficient to call a character a "smart" hacker. Assuming they take Electronics as a group at 4, that's 9 dice for software tests. Now yes, if you went all out and got yourself up to Logic 7 (not too hard, really) you'd be up to 11, and if you really wanted to specialize I guess you could buy Computer, Data Search, Software, and Hardware separately so you could get Software up to 5 or 6 (seems like overkill, at that point) to get yourself up to 12 or 13.

But let's just call it an average of 10 dice, which is still more than Herpa Derp has in Software. Without using option rules from Unwired, your only method of reducing the time is rushing the job, which doubles your chance of glitching (and glitching subtracts 1D6 hits from your progress). Now, granted, you're obviously going to be using Unwired if you're using the coding options, so fine....your interval is 3.5 days, but you still have double the chance to glitch, right?

All I'm saying is that you are *potentially* looking at a pretty big time investment to obtain something you could have simply bought, just so you can justify buying up a stat that isn't useful otherwise. Also, it's worth pointing out that there is no set interval for the Hardware test to build a commlink in the main book; using technical skills to build/repair (on page 138) lists suggested thresholds, but no intervals. A commlink is at least "intricate" to build, so you're looking at 12 hits on an average of 10 dice, with an interval of whatever your GM decides is fair.

Yeah, I can see that. If nothing else we won't have to tweak everyone. I'll have to add it as an explicit house rule, though.

Wow, it's sad that this pointless spiral still continues to pollute an otherwise potentially useful thread. I truly wish there was a way to filter people out of threads when I view them. None of you have added any new data for 3 pages just spiraled uselessly on petty bickering in circles. Half your disagreements are based purely on sloppy semantics.

Agree to disagree and be done with it or earn an "obvious troll is obvious" flag from most people here.

Response to this message will be ignored so don't bother trying to drag me into it.

That's a different cap, though. That one derives from the 'device stats can't be upgraded more than +2' rule, which I feel like most people only apply to Response and Signal (hardware).

Ha, Warlordtheft, that's an funny idea. I've never heard of anyone allowing 'pre-running time', whether you paid extra lifestyle or not.

I've always thought upgrading a commlink is buying the Response chip or Signal unit, and plugging it in. Not trivial, but very straightforward (esp. with all the instructions free on the matrix).

If you're trying not to be involved, why comment, HaxDBeheader?

If you are coding your own software, it is because you are proud of the fact that you are a HACKER and not a Script Kiddie. And you are proud of the fact that your Software is better than anyone else's, BECUASE it is yours. Yes, you COULD buy that software, but as a HACKER, ARE YOU GOING TO TRUST THAT SOFTWARE? I am guessing not, and if Not, you have to vet it, and to do so, you need some amount of smarts. And when Herp A Derp buys his software, he needs to remove that Registration so that he cannot be as easily tracked, and Herp A Derp cannot even do that for himself. He is copmpletely at the whim of his contacts. Sucks to be him.

It is trivially easy to get Hacking/Hardware/Software/Data Search/Computer rolls above your "Top End" 12-13 Dice you quoted above. Unfortunately for your friend Herp A Derp, he will never get there. He will never know what it is TO BE A HACKER, rather than a Script Kiddie. His Loss.

It is a Time investment that would other wise likely go unused anyways. Coding in your spare time, or in the off hours , or while locked away in your safehouse, whatever. You are making excuses to try and bolster your calims tha a Script Kiddie is the optimal hacker, and they continue to fall flat. *Shrug*

Ever make your own deck in SR2? IIRC that is how it was done. Of course your MPCP chip took something along the lines of 2 years of your life to make but hey you had a million nuyen...might just be how my college group rolled. Ah the nineties--20 years ago---NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!!!

You are talking about roleplaying concerns here, not mechanical ones. Roleplaying is important (and I agree with you here), but it's not what we're talking about.


I don't know about trivial, but yes, it's possible. Most people are going to buy Software as part of a skill group though, so that limits them to 4 skill dice and no specialties. Likewise, there's a premium for buying Logic over 5, and an even greater one for buying Logic over 6. A person *could* pay those premiums, but doing so would leave them with fewer points to round out the character; for this to be considered a valid hacker build, it should be accessible to most hacker concepts. 12-13 dice is about average for a starting shadowrunner in one of his/her specialty skills, so it's not like I'm lowballing here.


Again, I've never been in an SR game with as much downtime as you are describing. In a game with a lot of downtime, a lenient GM who chooses to use alternate rules that privilege Logic and software development, and in which combat is less important, a high-Logic hacker is indeed going to do quite well, and is probably going to measure up nicely against a Herpa Derp the Script Kiddie.

But in the base game, with a more average GM and a more average balance between combat, social, and matrix work, Herpa Derp is likely to have more overall competency, because the rules that make Logic and Software useful are optional rules.

I think that's a reasonable summation of the situation. We're clearly starting to bother people by dragging this on, so why not leave it at this? You're playing in a game with optional rules, Yerameyahu thinks that the default rules are perfect, and I strongly feel that the default rules are deeply flawed with regards to hacking. I don't care about the optional rules in Unwired.

For my own personal character, I probably would buy my Logic up to 5, knowing full well that it's a waste of points, because I hate stupid people, and wouldn't want to roleplay as one. I would just be angry that the game offers no real benefit to being smart (well, I guess I could make some toxins or something. Or remember....stuff). More likely, I would just play a different character type, even though Decking/Hacking is my favorite archetype.

I will address this part then...

When polled, the Average Dumpshock table had 1-2 runs PER MONTH. This was Average. High end was on the order of 1-2 Runs per Week, and the low end was 1 run per 2-3 Months. So, maybe we are having a disconnect here based upon Average Run frequency. Most tables, it seems, look to have respectable amounts of downtime (remember, with 1-2 runs per month, each taking a couple of days or so (2-4) you are left with 12 days on the high end, and 10 days on the low end, every two weeks to pursue downtime goals. You need this time to acquire equipment, heal up between ruuns, obtain surgery for some of those new cyber gizmos you have purchased, train up new skills, go on astral quests, Initiate, Submerge, etc.

If you do not have that time, how are you doing the things you need to do in order to advance in the game? The Hacker will usually spend his downtime in software programming, patching programs, updating matrix or drone equipment, etc. Unfortunately for your Character Herp A Derp, he cannot do any of that stuff himself, becuase he does not have the skills/raw intelligence to do so. He MUST contract someone out to do that for him. He may not even realize he is at a disadvantage. Sadly, he will lag behind the other "Hackers" quite quickly. He is not a Hacker, nor will he ever be, he is a Script Kiddie. Yes, he can process a script quite well, because raw intelligence is not a requirement for his very narrow niche of just Hacking (per the Basic Rules in the Game). Unfortunately, raw intelligence IS necessary to do any of the associated skills that a HACKER possesses.

Also, your argument that he will be more overly competant than a Hacker with a higher Logic is a fallacy. One that many, including me, have pointed out to you. I have yet to see a Logic 1 Script Kiddie outperform a even Logic 3 HACKER, let alone a Hacker with a Logic 5+ (which is NOT all that hard to get in the game, even at start. That is what a Cerebral Booster is for after all). Your continued denial of that, while entertaining, is irritatingly in error. The Developers gave a very valid in-game rationale for why Logic is not a REQUIREMENT to be a Hacker, but there is also a lot of in-game rationale for why a hacker with A Logic > 1 is prefferrable. And for those that do not like the base Assumptions, Optional Rules, in Advanced Book, have been provided to help create a basis for the world that you can get behind.

Your dislike of the Base Rules, though valid, is also not the fault of the Developers.
Your refusal to purchase an Advanced Book, with optional Ruls that address your concerns, is not the fault of the designers.
At that point, to fix the problem, all you are left with is Houseruling, or living with the way the rules are.
Your choice, and you are entitled to it.

But please quit telling everyone else that we are wrong, when in fact, we have the support of the Rules/Fluff (whether Base or Optional) behind us.

You're currently getting schooled by Tymeaus at CharOp, I feel like at this point you should reconsider your points. It is ridiculously, trivially easy to get way more than that for Software without buying any expensive things that don't directly help you hack aside from Logic.

Logic 5 (which you agreed to).
PuSHeD (which provides a direct benefit to all hacking)
Encephalon 2 (same)
NeoCortical Nanites (again, very beneficial to lots of hacking)
Electronics 4 (which you agreed to)
r5 Software Programming Suite (cheap and easy to get)

That right there is 5+1+2+3+4+5=20 dice.

You can also pay 100Y/day to use a programming environment, which halves your interval time. That's not really all that expensive given how much money you can save by programming.

Lets not forget the Cerebral Booster for another +1 to +3 Logic Attribute.

I'm not sure what your point here is; I conceded that if you used the optional rules (and none of the things you're talking about are in the core book) it was viable. I was merely asserting that my estimate of 12-13 was reasonable (not lowballing) for a starting character. And it is.


I am tired of explaining and re-explaining why saving 40 BP provides an advantage to Herpa Derp, the drooling idiot. In short, he can have anything the smart guy has that directly benefits hacking rolls, plus anything else (just like the smart guy), and he has 40 more points to buy it all with. If you disagree with that, well, you're disagreeing with math, and I don't know what more to say.

Back home, able to check my books.

PuSHeD - 15,000
Encephalon 2 - 75,000
NeoCortical Nanites - 15,000
R5 Software Suite - 5,000

110,000 nuyen is 22BP, which is hardly a trivial investment. Bear in mind that the Neocortical Nanites will only add those 3 dice when you're in a stress-free, quiet situation; thus, most hacking (often done during a run, with people around you, and/or under considerable pressure) will not take advantage of it. But yes, if you really wanted to dedicate your character to pretend software development, this is the way to go.

And this roleplaying aspect is the salient point (although many posters disagree with your position that Logic is a dump stat). In a number-crunching exercise Logic 1 Herpa Derp has 40BP more to spend in CharGen than the Logic 5 hacker. But from a roleplaying perspective, they are completely different animals.

If you want to look at character background, Herpa Derp pretty much must have self-trained his Hacking skill to 6: perhaps he escaped to the virtual world because the other kids laughed at him. Herpa Derp must have been a rich kid to be able to buy all the hacking programmes he used.

Your Log 5 hacker could also have been self-trained, although he wouldn't have to be rich because he could have written a lot of his own programmes. Alternatively, he could have studied Computer Studies at MIT and then got a job in a megacorp designing IC, with high ranking knowledge skills on IC and matrix security; you would have to bend over backwards to try and create a feasible background for Herpa Derp to have the same potentially useful knowledge skills.

And so on ...

The difference isn't limited to roleplaying, though, because those points aren't 'wasted'. They're merely invested in a different, equally valid manner: Logic, free Know skills, and Logic-linked skill potential.

I agree completely. JohnathanC seems to view Logic on a par with Strength as the weakest attribute. TJ, yourself and Umarov among others have pointed out some of the many skills linked to Logic, and yes, those free knowledge points are always a nice addition ...

Lot of hacking does get the +3, though, and it's extremely cost efficient. PuSHeD and Encephalon straight-up add to hacking. The only thing you're paying for just for software development is 5000 for the software suite. Stop being disingenuous.

Found the rules for upgrading firewall. Firewall is limited to Device rating +2, as per page 222, Upgrading Devices.

Except that rule never made sense.

I think that is only for hardware upgrades (i.e. Response and Signal).

Bye
Thanee

They changed it in a ninja rewrite between printings of SR4A. It used to just say "rating" now it says "hardware ratings."

Right. I swear we'd already addressed this point earlier in the thread?

Yep. I just checked my books. The non-LE first printing (which was the first one to come out) still has "ratings", while the LE already has "hardware ratings".

Anyways, it does not apply to Firewall anymore.

Bye
Thanee

Ok so I looked at the programming rules and looked at how high I could get software and logic and all those bonuses. I maxed out at 23 dice from every thing including a logic of 5 ( (without adding anything if there is teamwork involved). Not I took some interpretation regarding the rules (basically 1 month = 30 days=240hours (8*30)). Not specifically stated but seems reasonable.

A rating 8 attack program requires 16 hits, and a time interval of 3 months (90 days or 720 hours). Using a programming enviroment you can get it down to 45 days (or 360 hours) by either paying for it or hacking an account or having friends. Alright using a sleep regulator a person gets 5 extra hours each day so for every day spent he gets 13 hours (basically reducing the time interval to 27 days). Now taking that into account lets assume average rolls, so 7 hits (6 if you have the 20 dice pool cap). By the 3rd month he will have a brand spanking new rating 8 attack program (costing 8100 nuyen for the program enviroment if he bought the time). This assumes no rush job, or any teamork or options.

He will then need to spend 1 week each month keeping his program SOTA, which with his sleep regulator means (8*7/13) 4 days.

Yes, post-chargen we've definitely seen 'builds' like this. Given a certain combination of optional rules/GM approval, you can indeed write some serious programs of your own. If you lose any of the options (as you mention), or if you want to have good version of the *dozen* programs a good hacker wants, then it becomes quite the juggling act.

Did you include the Feng Shui lifestyle mod from Runner's Companion? That's I think +3 to Artisan/Technical tests done in the location.

Whether or not it'd apply when programming in VR I assume would be up to the GM.

Ok, I admit I haven't read the whole thread, but are people suggesting that the Logic 1 decker is inferior to the Logic 5 decker, simply because of the optional piracy and patching rules?

Really, the difference between them is small. Assuming that both have Software 4, and no boosts to Logic or their software pool (unlikely, but bear with me) they still have to spend one week each month keeping their programs up to date. And since illegal programs degrade at a max of 1 point per month, the Extended Software test has a Threshold of 1. That means Rain Man's pool of 5 vs Fastjack's pool of 10 isn't going to matter much: both are likely to get one success, and neither are likely to botch or critically botch.

While I can think of many good reasons to play a high-intelligence decker, patching programs isn't one of them.

Not directly, no, but the point is that pirating programs is less good than programming your own, because (per the errata) self-coded programs don't degrade. Keeping more than a few pirated programs updated is going to eat up more time than you have to spare - even though it's easy and thus you can rush the job, you aren't going to be able to keep all the programs you'd want patched yourself because it's 1 week per program per month, not 1 week per month. You'll have to pay for updates to most of them, or live with only a few high-rated programs.

They do degrade. They just don't degrade *from* planned obsolescence.

They don't use the degradation rules in Unwired. There's the vague "may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster's discretion" thing, but anything can happen at the gamemaster's discretion anyways.

Missed that...but even still if you have multiple programs (exploit, analyze, encrpyt. decrypt, medic, armor, any pilot programs) that 1 week per month turns into 5 weeks. Which leads to even more disparity between the logic intensive and the logic 1 hacker.

Most months don't have 5 weeks (and none of them have 5 full weeks). Even a logic intensive hacker can't travel through time, genius.

Do you just like to argue and throw insults? If it takes 1 Week per month, per program (40 Hours) and you need 5 Weeks (200 Hours) to patch 5 programs (because it takes 1 week per program), it will still take you 5 Weeks to complete your task, regardless of the number of weeks in a Month. And amazingly enough. by the time you have finished patching that last program, you get to start the cycle all over again.

You'll never complete the cycle within a month; you're always running one week into the next month, which means that you only have 3 weeks in that month, so you run two weeks into the month after that, leaving you with only two weeks in that month....you'll never complete the task, because by the time you've completed it, you're already 1 or more weeks behind on starting it all over again.

Exactly... Why is that an issue? If you really want to address that as a Hacker, you take other steps. Use a Programming Environment, now you can patch 2 programs/Week. There are ways to make Patching work for you, if you take the time to look for them.

Why is it an issue? Because your programs will *always* be degraded. You'll never catch up. In fact, you won't even have time to use the damn things, because you've made a full-time job out of failing to keep your programs up-to-date.

Only if you are an inept Hacker. Mine patches a Program in about 5-10 Hours.

If you find this is a problem, just change the coding rules.

That too...

If you fall behind, just do not patch for every lost point of raiting. Just patch from 4 to 6. Or whatever...

In the end it is just silly. The whole degrading rules are to keep the silly "coding" rules in check.
So your hacker can't have 10 raiting 10 programms after 1-2 "in game years"...

I'd house rule a limit on degredation if it ever comes up. Mostly I would hand wavium this part of the game and assume every spare moment the hacker has he'es checking and updating his code, assuming he has a good enough skill set or contacts. Luckily my players tend to go technomancer on me rather than hacker.