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Socinus
I've been toying with the idea of attempting to GM a Shadowrun game again and I've been looking at Shifters, from Runner's Companion.

I have some concerns about balance. As a test, I put together a Troll Bear Shifter character. Without really trying, he can do 14P damage with his bare hands and 9P with a weapon. On top of that, he has Regeneration, Enhanced Senses (almost all), and +1 Reach as well as a massive Body score to pile tons of armor on. That's without any martial arts.

I have some concerns that this may represent a character that is extremely difficult to threaten without anihilating the rest of the team, I'm considering restricting Shapeshifters altogether or at least Bear and Tiger/Lion shifters.

Any ideas?
VykosDarkSoul
First I would like to say this is all my opinion, based on years of different games.

Leave the PC shifters to the games that were specifically designed for them, I.E. Werewolf, etc.

Every other game that I have played that introduced shifters as a PC sorely regretted it.

use them as an NPC now and again
thorya
Remember that the troll attribute ratings do not stack with the bear shifter attribute ratings, so unless you made a melee adept, you probably over estimated that damage. In general, I have not found them particularly overpowered, especially since at chargen they can't have any 'ware. This means that their high attributes are not easily augmented and they can't do cyberware cheese to buff their armor. They are dual natured so that limits them as well. The regeneration thing is powerful, but not completely unbalancing, unless you're going to be play Corporations & Crime (i.e. combat based game). You might consider some of the alternate allergy options if you don't like the silver thing.
If you limit the amount of armor that can be combined, it shouldn't be much different than a troll tank. They'll almost certainly go adept, or they won't be able to get enough passes to compete in combat very well. If you're going to ban lion, you should do the same with jaguar as well. The plus 4 to agility is powerful, but that comes at the penalty of no cyberware. Of the things in runner's companion, shifters are probably not the ones you need to worry about.
Halinn
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Apr 12 2012, 10:33 PM) *
First I would like to say this is all my opinion, based on years of different games.

Leave the PC shifters to the games that were specifically designed for them, I.E. Werewolf, etc.

Every other game that I have played that introduced shifters as a PC sorely regretted it.

use them as an NPC now and again

I also suggest not allowing non-human shapeshifters.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Apr 12 2012, 03:33 PM) *
First I would like to say this is all my opinion, based on years of different games.

Leave the PC shifters to the games that were specifically designed for them, I.E. Werewolf, etc.

Every other game that I have played that introduced shifters as a PC sorely regretted it.

use them as an NPC now and again


Unfortunatly it looks like my post cut itself short.

The last line was supposed to be "Use them as an NPC now and again, see how they work out and how they hold up, and then make your choice"

smile.gif
Draco18s
If you allow a bear troll shifter (notice how you picked the BEST comination there is to compare against) in your game, require that he be a total pacifist.

It works. Trust me. It'll be really interesting.

Oh Bear Who Walks Through Walls, how I adored thee.
Halinn
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 13 2012, 12:27 AM) *
Oh Bear Who Walks Through Walls, how I adored thee.


Do you have the stats for him? I've seen you drop the name a few times. I'm assuming a bear shifter adept who punched through walls?
Sengir
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 12 2012, 09:21 PM) *
I have some concerns about balance. As a test, I put together a Troll Bear Shifter character. Without really trying, he can do 14P damage with his bare hands and 9P with a weapon. On top of that, he has Regeneration, Enhanced Senses (almost all), and +1 Reach as well as a massive Body score to pile tons of armor on. That's without any martial arts.

A Shapeshifter with a metahuman form gains the corresponding metatype abilities, but not the attributes. A bear shifter with Shift(Troll) has the +1 Armor, thermo vision and +1 Reach while in Troll form, but no attribute boosts wink.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Halinn @ Apr 12 2012, 05:40 PM) *
Do you have the stats for him? I've seen you drop the name a few times. I'm assuming a bear shifter adept who punched through walls?


Yes and no. Also yes and no.

I don't have his stats offhand, but I know where to get them.

And no, he didn't punch walls. He obliterated them.

His unarmed melee attack versus objects did, on average, 42P damage. Enough to break a 30 centimeter deep 1meter square hole in concrete. Assuming he only needed a 1 meter square hole to walk through, he could dig through concrete at a rate approaching the human walking speed.
Socinus
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 12 2012, 11:27 PM) *
A Shapeshifter with a metahuman form gains the corresponding metatype abilities, but not the attributes. A bear shifter with Shift(Troll) has the +1 Armor, thermo vision and +1 Reach while in Troll form, but no attribute boosts wink.gif

He does have the attribute bosts, per RAW, those stats are for natural and shifted form.


QUOTE
His unarmed melee attack versus objects did, on average, 42P damage.

WTF? How?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 12 2012, 07:03 PM) *
He does have the attribute bosts, per RAW, those stats are for natural and shifted form.


He has his BEAR attributes, he does not get the TROLL attributes. Please read the rules regarding metahuman shifters. They get the "metatype abilities" of their metahuman form, which if you check that chart, has a column politely labeled "ATTRIBUTES" and another one labeled "ABILITIES."

QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 12 2012, 07:03 PM) *
WTF? How?


1) high natural strength
2) adept powers (more damage, even more damage, and extra damage vs. objects)
3) martial arts qualities
UmaroVI
Shifters are one of the least poorly balanced things in Runner's Companion.
Draco18s
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Apr 12 2012, 07:28 PM) *
Shifters are one of the least poorly balanced things in Runner's Companion.


Indeed.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 13 2012, 04:21 AM) *
I have some concerns that this may represent a character that is extremely difficult to threaten without anihilating the rest of the team, I'm considering restricting Shapeshifters altogether or at least Bear and Tiger/Lion shifters.

These numbers aren't really so high or so different than any other cybered / melee adept. Challenge shifters with guns - regeneration doesn't work so well if the character actually goes in to overflow.

Also, being dual-natured, they're extremely vulnerable to attacks from the astral. Astral combat can be nasty if you aren't prepared for it. And if the character isn't able to defend themselves from astral spells, that's also a big disadvantage.
ElFenrir
If anything, Tiger/Lion shifters are far more OP than Bear Shifters, IMO. They get Body, Strength, and most importantly, Agility boosts, cost less, and make for far more deadly foes. I made a Tiger Guy and a Bear Guy, and the Tiger Guy was a lot scarier. I even considered swapping their costs. (Bear was the better 'soak tank' at least, though Tiger had more Reaction, which is also important for avoiding damage. In fact, it's very important for AVOIDING damage. Body helps the soak. Tigers have a 7 max reaction vs. a 5, and still get a Body boost on TOP of that. Oh yeah, they get a lot less penalties. Tigers are, pound for pound, more powerful than Bears in every way the way these stats work. Bears are just Stronger and Tougher and that's it, but the fact Tigers still get boosts to these stats and THEN bonuses to stuff like Agility and Reaction with less overall penalties? And they cost LESS?)

And yes, I'll echo-stats do NOT stack. So a Bear Shifter with Shift Troll would still ONLY have his bear stats. My Bear shifter has shift elf, and he doesn't get any Agility boosts-he sits at the whopping 4 that Bear shifters get. He hits hard as hell, but his combat dice aren't as scary as the other Tiger fellow I whipped up to compare(who had a general human form.)

That being said, IMO, shifter damage or attributes aren't what totally set them off, it's their passive regeneration. Attributes? I've gotten worse with cybered characters, bio adepts, and the like. Much worse. If Shifters didn't have regeneration, they'd be arguably considerably underpowered, IMO.
The Jopp
I would allow shifters with the following modification in regards to metahumanity. A shapeshifter who tries to mimic metahumanity would have the same attributes as the metatype they 'mimic'. After all, magic is already involved so we might as well make them a bit more flexible.

You pay first for the shapeshifter and then also for the race.

So a Troll Bear shapeshifter would cost 80+40 points and gain the abilities and bonuses from the Troll metatype - making it a very big, bad bear. Note, the racial bonuses AND negatives would apply so a troll bear would also be uglier than a regular bear as their charisma would be penalized by being a troll metatype bear shifter.

Unfortunately for these shifters they would also have the drawback of not being able to conceal themselves fully as animals as their metatype traits tends to shine through. A bear troll shapeshifter would be even larger than a regular bear and also have dermal plating deposits on its body and most likely horns.

A Night Elf jaguar might have elongated ears and be slimmer than a regular jaguar.

Would it be overpowered, I do not know - it would surely be expensive but on the other hand they would not be able to branch out into full fledged magicians as easily or adepts from gamestart.

Not to mention...how scary is a Troll metatype bear shifter in human form?

On the subject of Regeneration.

I would like to change those rules so that it is a gradual healing over time and not BANG! im healed. Perhaps Max boxes healed equal to Edge per combat turn or so.
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 13 2012, 05:50 AM) *
I would allow shifters with the following modification in regards to metahumanity. A shapeshifter who tries to mimic metahumanity would have the same attributes as the metatype they 'mimic'. After all, magic is already involved so we might as well make them a bit more flexible.

You pay first for the shapeshifter and then also for the race.

So a Troll Bear shapeshifter would cost 80+40 points and gain the abilities and bonuses from the Troll metatype - making it a very big, bad bear.


So, in other words, the same cost as it is now but with even more bonuses?

(It already costs 120 BP to be a troll-bearshifter, FYI)
The Jopp
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 13 2012, 12:42 PM) *
So, in other words, the same cost as it is now but with even more bonuses?

(It already costs 120 BP to be a troll-bearshifter, FYI)


Well, it costs 10 points less (Metatype cost 40-10 +80 for a bear shapeshifter)

Yes, they would be more powerful but their metatype attributes would also be impacted by the negative attributes from the animal form. That is, you would get the racial bonuses from the troll form which would improve the bear form but the bear would also have the negative impacts from troll metatype (charisma and intelligence) where the negative impacts are greater than the bears natural atributes.

An Elf bear shifter would be a rather buffed elf but is a lot slower. You essentially lower the attributes in both forms where they have a negative attribute impact (The bear have a -2 to their normal agility of 1/4(6) against the elfs 2/7(10) which gives the elf form a maximum of 1/5(cool.gif instead, but the bear gains a charisma bonus of +2 from 1/6 to 3/8. The elf metatype form would gain a body bonus from bear form making him very buff but lower his intuition, logic, willpower and reaction to 1/5 instead.

Their attributes becomes a hybrid of both bear and metatype

Ok, that might have sounded bad, did it make sense? question.gif


Draco18s
I understand it, what I'm saying is, it'd be less balanced.
Halinn
Indeed.
Troll Bear Shifter, under your rules:
11/17 body | 1/3 agi | 1/5 rea | 11/17 str | 1/4 cha | 1/4 int | 1/4 log | 1/5 wil

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Apr 13 2012, 01:19 PM) *
Indeed.
Troll Bear Shifter, under your rules:
11/17 body | 1/3 agi | 1/5 rea | 11/17 str | 1/4 cha | 1/4 int | 1/4 log | 1/5 wil


Those look mighy nice... smile.gif
snowRaven
Shapeshifters work fine as PCs, I think - as long as you remember that they are animals, and roleplay them accordingly.

Their biggest drawback is their innate bestial nature and the problems this will cause in metahuman society. They have no understanding of metahuman laws, social conventions, and the like unless they acquire the approperiate social and knowledge skills - and even then, the metahuman way of doing things won't be their first instinct.
Neraph
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Apr 13 2012, 05:24 PM) *
Shapeshifters work fine as PCs, I think - as long as you remember that they are animals, and roleplay them accordingly.

Their biggest drawback is their innate bestial nature and the problems this will cause in metahuman society. They have no understanding of metahuman laws, social conventions, and the like unless they acquire the approperiate social and knowledge skills - and even then, the metahuman way of doing things won't be their first instinct.

KE Cop approaches one and says "Have a good day," smiling.
Bear-troll shifter bathes in his blood.

Shifters are fine. Just remember that Silver weapons get a whopping +6 DV against them that they can't regen.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Socinus @ Apr 12 2012, 06:03 PM) *
WTF? How?


The main component of this hilarity is Shattering Blow, the adept power.

Glyph
One thing to remember is that regeneration is not omni-powerful even without allergies coming into play. Mundanes can bypass it with a called shot (aiming for the head or spinal areas that don't regenerate - assuming they know this), and regeneration does not work at all against magical damage. And it is relatively easy to finish you off if you get put down - regeneration works best in conjunction with a tank build who will only take a few boxes of damage, then heal them almost as quickly.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 13 2012, 08:17 PM) *
The main component of this hilarity is Shattering Blow, the adept power.


Quite.
ElFenrir
QUOTE
Their biggest drawback is their innate bestial nature and the problems this will cause in metahuman society. They have no understanding of metahuman laws, social conventions, and the like unless they acquire the approperiate social and knowledge skills - and even then, the metahuman way of doing things won't be their first instinct.


I have fun playing this up with Kael(my bear Elven shifter adept-well kinda mystic adept but he's got some nice crunchy adept powers.) It takes people getting used to the fact that sometimes, he just wants to go...well, be a bear in the woods. And after ripping enemies to shreds in his bear form it's all he can do if he hasn't eaten that day not to have a nom, but he tries to sorta fight that.

If teammates are around. grinbig.gif He doesn't take his bear form in public(in the way that ''if there are potentially any cameras...or survivors.'') But given that he's still as strong as his giant Kodiak form in his elven form it's not like he needs to all the time. But balancing the two out is a pretty fun role-play challenge, as is learning things the more metahuman way. He had a mentor thankfully so he can read, write, speak well and all of that, but he is still fairly 'blank' when it comes to certain things.

snowRaven
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 14 2012, 01:32 PM) *
I have fun playing this up with Kael(my bear Elven shifter adept-well kinda mystic adept but he's got some nice crunchy adept powers.) It takes people getting used to the fact that sometimes, he just wants to go...well, be a bear in the woods. And after ripping enemies to shreds in his bear form it's all he can do if he hasn't eaten that day not to have a nom, but he tries to sorta fight that.

If teammates are around. grinbig.gif He doesn't take his bear form in public(in the way that ''if there are potentially any cameras...or survivors.'') But given that he's still as strong as his giant Kodiak form in his elven form it's not like he needs to all the time. But balancing the two out is a pretty fun role-play challenge, as is learning things the more metahuman way. He had a mentor thankfully so he can read, write, speak well and all of that, but he is still fairly 'blank' when it comes to certain things.

Sounds very much like the Jaguar shifter adept assassin in the group I GM for smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 14 2012, 06:32 AM) *
It takes people getting used to the fact that sometimes, he just wants to go...well, be a bear in the woods.


Bear Who Walks Through Walls was constantly on the lookout for food. He dug into a bunker where there was a hacker we needed to enforce dumpshock on (and open a gate) and the bear went strait for the fridge. My character (the semi-hacker) went in behind and actually dealt with the hacker* and the computers.

*Yoinked all his cables out, he took dumpshock, saw the bear, and ran screaming for the hills.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 14 2012, 05:42 PM) *
Bear Who Walks Through Walls was constantly on the lookout for food. He dug into a bunker where there was a hacker we needed to enforce dumpshock on (and open a gate) and the bear went strait for the fridge. My character (the semi-hacker) went in behind and actually dealt with the hacker* and the computers.

*Yoinked all his cables out, he took dumpshock, saw the bear, and ran screaming for the hills.


Now, Bear Who Walks Through Walls was the total pacifist, correct? That had to be interesting. grinbig.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Apr 14 2012, 06:23 PM) *
Now, Bear Who Walks Through Walls was the total pacifist, correct? That had to be interesting. grinbig.gif


Bear raided the guy's minifridge.
The Jopp
There are so many ways of taking down shifters it isnt even funny anymore.

Think about it.

1.Fire
Incendiary Grenades
Yes, you heal the damage and your fur grow out...and keeps feeding the flames so you burn even more as your regenerating ability keeps adding fuel to the flames.

2.Electricity
Stick'N'Shock/Tazers/Drone Theft Protection Electro Shock (S10 Stun)
Put em to sleep and then douse them with whatever seems useful.

3.Allergies
Right, a little more difficult as Silver is a bit expensive - But all you need is to hit with ONE shot at a +6 to damage.

Silver Bullets
Silver Nitrate Solution (Squirt Gun?)
Silver Nitrate Splash Grenade

4.Magic
No Regenerate (I'd suggest fireball since their fur would burn)

5.Animal Instinct
Knowledge is half the battle, people with animal knowledge of the shifter in question should get some advantage in knowing their instinctive behavior - And no, a ball of yarn thrown against a Cat Shifter wont do a thing.

6.Other Gear
Splash Grenades with Irritants (Pepper Punch, Nausea Gas, FAB III). Injection vector attacks with FAB III (Dart Guns)
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 16 2012, 08:01 AM) *
5.Animal Instinct
Knowledge is half the battle, people with animal knowledge of the shifter in question should get some advantage in knowing their instinctive behavior - And no, a ball of yarn thrown against a Cat Shifter wont do a thing.


Keeping in mind that this works with some people as well.

There's a reason I'm diagnosed ADOS.

Attention Deficit--Oooh Shiny.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 16 2012, 04:26 PM) *
Keeping in mind that this works with some people as well.

There's a reason I'm diagnosed ADOS.

Attention Deficit--Oooh Shiny.


Yea, im suspecting that I have ADD and perhaps a small bit of Aspergers
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 16 2012, 10:52 AM) *
and perhaps a small bit of Aspergers


Ditto on that. I don't mesh with Real People well.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 16 2012, 04:06 PM) *
Ditto on that. I don't mesh with Real People well.


Yup, my horde of imaginary fanboys and ghost friends are so much better - not to mention the voices in my head. wobble.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 16 2012, 02:20 PM) *
Yup, my horde of imaginary fanboys and ghost friends are so much better - not to mention the voices in my head. wobble.gif


Nah, I got none of those. But it's soooo much easier to deal with stupid people when you can just eat them and be done with it.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 16 2012, 02:30 PM) *
Nah, I got none of those. But it's soooo much easier to deal with stupid people when you can just eat them and be done with it.


Seconded! biggrin.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 16 2012, 10:30 PM) *
Nah, I got none of those. But it's soooo much easier to deal with stupid people when you can just eat them and be done with it.


You don't need to be a 'shifter for that, you know...
The Jopp
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Apr 17 2012, 10:25 AM) *
You don't need to be a 'shifter for that, you know...


Just a cannibalistic troll with the following:
Suprathyroid Gland
Corrosive Spit Metagenic Quality
Fangs metagenic Quality
Ogre Stomach Metagenic Quality
Dark Secret (Cannibal)

Mr.Munchy the troll works for the mob, he disposes of troublesome people but nobody knows exactly how he does is since they seem to just dissappear...
Neraph
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 17 2012, 05:05 AM) *
Just a cannibalistic troll with the following:
Suprathyroid Gland
Corrosive Spit Metagenic Quality
Fangs metagenic Quality
Ogre Stomach Metagenic Quality
Dark Secret (Cannibal)

Mr.Munchy the troll works for the mob, he disposes of troublesome people but nobody knows exactly how he does is since they seem to just dissappear...

Or, you know, a ghoul.
bibliophile20
But a ghoul has no choice. Sure, they're creepy, but they're a known creepy. A guy who chooses to be a cannibal, because he likes the taste? Much creepier (and therefore more interesting as an antagonistic, named NPC)
Neraph
QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Apr 17 2012, 06:16 PM) *
But a ghoul has no choice. Sure, they're creepy, but they're a known creepy. A guy who chooses to be a cannibal, because he likes the taste? Much creepier (and therefore more interesting as an antagonistic, named NPC)

You mean a Blood Adept? I see a million nuyen.gif right there.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 18 2012, 08:30 AM) *
You mean a Blood Adept? I see a million nuyen.gif right there.


Why does he have to be a magically awakened character? Creepy enough with just a normal Joe Schmoe. smile.gif
Neraph
Because the Awakened are IMO the most likely to do that, unless you like putting people with severe mental issues in the world at random. Not only that, people with severe, illegal mental issues who would be arrested fast.
Iduno
QUOTE (Halinn @ Apr 13 2012, 04:19 PM) *
Indeed.
Troll Bear Shifter, under your rules:
11/17 body | 1/3 agi | 1/5 rea | 11/17 str | 1/4 cha | 1/4 int | 1/4 log | 1/5 wil


3 agility, if you hardmax it? Plus low mental stats and reaction. He'd be able to take damage like crazy, but wouldn't be able to do much of anything.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 18 2012, 09:15 AM) *
Because the Awakened are IMO the most likely to do that, unless you like putting people with severe mental issues in the world at random. Not only that, people with severe, illegal mental issues who would be arrested fast.


And yet there are people who are cannibals today. *shrug* smile.gif
What makes an Awakened "More Likely" in your opinion, as I do not see it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Iduno @ Apr 18 2012, 09:36 AM) *
3 agility, if you hardmax it? Plus low mental stats and reaction. He'd be able to take damage like crazy, but wouldn't be able to do much of anything.


3 is average. and Mentals of 4 are above average. I see no limitations here. smile.gif
thorya
The Troll Bear Shifter with the low agility isn't really the biggest problem, because melee isn't usually the best option in game and he's going to have trouble hitting anyone with a little bit of dodge. So being able to soak damage and punch things hard isn't a disproportionate threat.

The problem is if you stack Troll Tiger Shifter stats.

8/13 Body | 4/9 Agi | 2/7 Rea | 7/12 Str | 1/4 Cha | 1/4 Int | 1/4 Log | 1/5 Wil

Now you've got a damage sponge which is also super agile, slightly harder to hit, and really strong.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (thorya @ Apr 18 2012, 09:58 AM) *
The Troll Bear Shifter with the low agility isn't really the biggest problem, because melee isn't usually the best option in game and he's going to have trouble hitting anyone with a little bit of dodge. So being able to soak damage and punch things hard isn't a disproportionate threat.

The problem is if you stack Troll Tiger Shifter stats.

8/13 Body | 4/9 Agi | 2/7 Rea | 7/12 Str | 1/4 Cha | 1/4 Int | 1/4 Log | 1/5 Wil

Now you've got a damage sponge which is also super agile, slightly harder to hit, and really strong.


Looks like a typical Troll Street Sam to me... smile.gif
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