Ooops. I forgot. Been a LONG weeek. Thanks Yerameyahu.

You want to play the linking game? Alright:

From Wikiquote

Master Shake: You can't have birth without death. It's the duplicitous edge which we all walk upon.

Whether you got it or not, it is a reference to a television show. Pretty sure it's intent was to be humorous. He thought people would get the joke; it would appear most people didn't.

Given that example, it still doesn't look like he used it right, either time.

Eh, it was the first one I can find. It wouldn't surprise me if there's an instance closer to what he used. The point is Master Shake often uses words he doesn't know the meaning of.

Hehe. But, we've now all learned something that we wouldn't have without phlapjack.

Pffft. Low-brow comedy, as support for the misuse of a word?

Wonders apparently [b]won't/b] ever cease.

The saddest thing in all of this, to me, is that I used to be a big ATHF fan, but haven't watched it in years.

Oh, and that I had to look up "ATHF". And I'm THAT old guy now.

On topic again: Even though that's a great quote, Sengir, it seems that "somehow"* the RAS has had it's function changed over the editions. SR4 RAS only appears to disable motor functions.

And wouldn't the idea of dumpshock cover what you are talking about, being suddenly disconnected from the more intense signal? Normal disconnects would more smoothly allow the brain to adjust back to the lower signal level.

*somehow = writers didn't do their due diligence

Or just maybe the technology has gotten a lot better over the years, so Motor-Function is the only relevant thing these days?
Everything ewlse has been getting better, why not the RAS?

That only sort of makes sense, and it just gives us the same problem again: why the -6? Either the VR signal is "overwhelming" body senses (per SR4a), or the RAS is damping them (per SR3), and either way the RAS is blocking motor signals. Option A means another annoying cross-edition change, but Option B implies that disabling the RAS also disables the damping (-6). And, if there is damping, does that affect wounds? Why can't you use something like the RAS as a pain editor; is it because paralysis is a requirement?

So, A is much simpler, at the cost of cross-edition fluff conflict.

The system doesn't have to be "overwhelming" them at all - it might be editing them. You know, like you edit the feed from a camera, to omit your Troll buddy as he ambles across the parking lot during a run?

That's the damping option. We know it's not editing them as you describe, because of the -6 penalty.

However, the body goes uncontrollably limp, as the brain is no longer sending signals to it's body.

No, the RAS is specifically disabling/blocking those signals. If you turn it off, you can move as normal. In SR4 RAW, this is the primary (sole mentioned) function of the RAS.

That's (apparently) totally separate from the sensory damping (the -6) that Sengir quoted the RAS as doing in the last edition. Assuming some mechanism (or sub-part of the RAS) is still doing this, we don't know from the SR4 RAW whether it can be turned off. Presumably not.

You have to assume that the sensory dampening can be disabled, otherwise Personafixes would never work.

Which is irrelevant to technomancers, who have no such device.

I never said you were too slow, nor did I imply it. What I did do was apologize, then stated where I got the word usage from, so that if you wanted to know that badly, you could figure it out yourself. Your response to my apology was a continued insistence that I was wrong, as if the entire purpose of your post was to posit your grammatical superiority. But please, continue to insist that you're some oppressed intellectual who's taking a moral stand on an issue by trying to beat down someone who apologized to you.

Given that technos don't, I obviously wasn't talking about them. (It's entirely possible they have a bio-RAS, if they really wanted.) Regardless, I'm not worried about the motor-shutdown, just the sensory effects.

Maybe, TJ, but that could be just another writer error. There are no rules for *not* suffering that -6 (AFAIK), which implies that (if there's damping) it's always there. The alternative (as I said above) is to assume that there's no damping in SR4 (retcon magic!), and it's actually an 'overwhelm'/distraction penalty. This solves the disabling question, too.

For personafix, we have to assume that they're actually receiving VR simsense *of* their own senses? That would require a simrig. :/ Hmm. I dunno, we never deal with personafix.

Aren't they one in the same? We're talking about a partial shutdown of the CNS here, after all.

When you get right down to it, TMs are magical. Want to have a better program on your persona? You can! But you might get some bruises on your arm... Cause fading man, she's a bitch. I suppose it just seems odd to me to give magicians a pass on how their bodies react in the world "Because Magic", but insist that `mancers follow all the rules a mundane would, "Because technology".

The whole point is that they're totally different. There's motor shutdown, and there's some sensory effect (either damping, or 'overwhelming'). Technomancers don't matter at all, because, yes, they're a special case. (Except when it comes to their 'mind' 'going somewhere' during VR use. ) The thread is about the sensory stuff. Someone brought up the RAS, which used to affect the sensory stuff, and for which the SR4 rules only mention motor stuff.

Interesting possibility, I had not even considered that aspect.

Heh. The idea (for *this* fanciful suggestion only) is that the personafix is basically a computer program *acting* as the personality, right? So it has to be receiving and using your senses as input, running them through the program, and then outputting commands to your body. The question is really just how much the 'base' brain is being used during that process. :/ It's much closer to a bio-Pilot, I'd guess (and god knows we don't want to get into *that* mess), but the equal quagmire of skillware/skillsofts are also involved (as mentioned p259). In the end, this is a lot of contrivance just to avoid the -6 for something that almost by definition only affects NPCs.

For the record, I am not saying personafix works via simrig, nor by the use of your own senses in VR. That's just a funny thought I had about avoiding the -6, which isn't mentioned in their description. RAW, personafix is more like a skillsoft for your personality.

Possession spirits? In my RAS!? It's more likely then you think.

Interesting *Fanciful* take on that.

Not that we have any idea how skillware actually works, though…

Well, people on personafixes or mood chips can move around and there is no mention of a penalty



Nothing in fluff, but IRL it is extremely difficult to relieve pain without any other neurological effects (sleepiness, muscle relaxation...). It would make sense that the cheap sim module can only do a complete cutoff, while a targeted analgesic effect requires something far more elaborate and expensive, namely the Pain Editor.

That's why I asked. There's also no mention of *not* having the general VR -6 penalty, either for those or for anyone who disabled the RAS otherwise.

The sim module *can't* do a complete cutoff, that's the whole point. It's a -6. However, the inverse of your reasoning might work: I'm fine with handwaving the pain editor as 'it requires fancy bioware to do a complete pain cutoff, *because* the sim module can only do general and partial sensory damping'.

So. Is the simplest thing to just say the -6 penalty is fully gone when the RAS is off, and always present when it's on ('ragdoll')? I'm happy to believe the writers just forgot this.

Moodfix and Personafix probably use ONLY the Emotive channels - that is, they only affect your emotions. Not what you see, smell, hear, taste, feel ... but how you feel ABOUT those sensory inputs. As such, there's (a) no RAS involvement, and (b) no over-written sensory data to "sort through" in order to act in the real world.

I agree. I said, they're more like skillsofts for your personality. However, they are BTLs, they are VR, and they therefore fall under the rules. Those rules, incidentally, specifically mention that these chips (frequently) have the RAS turned off (with the obvious implication that they can have it turned on, etc.).