Guys, can you heal a fish in Shadowrun? I don't think the rules are clear about this. POST ONE RULE IN ALL CAPS WITH THE WORD HEALING IN IT, REGARDING FISH OF ANY KIND.

@UmaroVI
Well, there ain't any. You have to assume.
But since a metahuman is on the biological basis not so different from a fish (Both living organism)... (On the other hand looking at a car or a spirit...)

The point is, you have to make an argument WHY you can. It is silly to say: Well, tell me where it says you can't. Because of course it is impossible to exclude every possibilitiy.
Espacially if you start excluding every rule, which is taking a closer approach to the matter at hand. (Making it an PC)

If a PC free spirit is considering the rules so drastically different from a normal spirit (the general rules about the natur of spirits mentioned there do not apply), than why would the assumption that a spirit follows the same rules as a metahuman be valid?

It is pick what you like. Has nothing to do with whats in the book and what is not in the book.

I beg to differ. The core book has only metahumans as player characters, but
As in Non Player Characters. Critters are characters, spirits are critters, so spirits can be healed.

Oh and by the way the combined entity of spirit and inanimate object is a critter as well:


@UmaroVI: the quotes above should prove that you can heal fish. I don't know however why you asked about that, especially in caps.

@Dakka Dakka
Still, possession is not in the core book.

And a car is not a creature.

So what?

No, but a combined entity of spirit and car is. This entity is created when the spirit possesses the car.

The only part of this I disagree with is that Turn to Goo (or whatever that spell is called) can take a constituent part of the makeup of the target (in this case, a living being) and converts it to goo.

Thus if your body is plasteel, you can still have it shaped because it is plasteel.

Ah, but Turn to Goo is the worst spell ever. It breaks the rules and is awful.

Since it's an official spell, it pretty much by definition can't be breaking the rules

You'd think that, if you'd never read the rules. They break themselves at least once a page.

Okay, part of this conversation confuses me.
Can you damage cybernetics. Does a heal spell restore them?

You can only damage them if you're using optional rules (which, in SR4, are extremely scanty anyway). No, because Heal only affects the Condition Monitor.

Tashiro:
Yes, cyberware can be damaged like anything else. It's not optional rules. No heal cannot fix them. It's not common to see cyberware damaged or destroyed without killing the host... but it is possible.

There is a seperate spell for non-living tech toys called 'fix'. It's *NOT* a healing spell it's a manipulation spell. Even though the character has spent essence for the part... and it's part of him 'heal' won't work on the non-living cyberware. More often than not you're going to a mechanic/street doc to have the cyber repaired/replaced though.

Look at page 343 for the rest... if a test involves only one limb... you use only that limbs stats... cyberlimbs are kinda unique in that unlike many other pieces of equipment they actually have their own independent body/agi/str scores. Multiple limbs take the average... fine coordination... the weakest limb.

There's a 4th option under called shot which is pretty much carte blanche for the GM and players to be inventive with called shots. (and a 5th option for vehicles in the vehicle section allowing for called shots against individual vehicle parts... wheels doors radiators, etc. which is just a restatement of the 4th option). "The gamemaster may also allow for other specific effects for called shots if he chooses." IE: I shoot the guy chasing me in the leg so I can run away..... I blow out the guys cyberarm to get a point across and cracking kneecaps is just so blase.... This just comes down to the GM and applying some common sense if it's reasonable or not.

… How is it not optional rules? GM-fiat Called Shot is as optional as it gets. So is the Severe Wounds system, which is what I was referring to. The only other ways are mentioned here: I'll give you nanites, but that's a far cry from 'can be damaged just like anything else'.

If a Called Shot is used to target an obvious piece of cyberware, why would it not follow the rules of damage to Barriers?

Interesting. So general damage (condition monitor) can be healed, but a called shot to a cyberlimb (for example), can not. The cyberlimb is taking damage - which would normally, I think, appear on the person's condition monitor, but can't be healed through normal means. Would a 'fix' spell 'heal' it, then?

Because a cyberlimb is not a barrier.

No, damage to the cyberlimb, which only works by GM Fiat, would only turn up on the condition monitor by GM fiat.
Not unless you remove it from the character. It is part of the character and cannot be targeted separately.

@Dakka. Love the name. I've a player who says 'More Dakka!' from time to time.
Okay, so, cyberlimb damage doesn't normally show up on the condition monitor. But if someone is ripped to shreds by bullets, their cyberware isn't going to be damaged, even if their condition monitor goes into deep overflow, unless you're using the optional rules for extreme damage? Hmm. This is sort of a double standard, I think.

And the Fix spell. I guess someone could make a variant which could work on implanted 'ware. Not too hard.

This would break the rules just as much as turn to goo does. Speaking of which a single exception to the rules does not allow breaking the rules in other cases.

Would it break the rules? Going by the limits placed on spells itself, it wouldn't. Now, would it break the game? I'm usually (as a GM) of the mind that rules aren't necessarily supposed to be balanced. If the GM thinks she can handle it, it isn't a problem. I don't see this as being a problem - I do see it having significant drain however.

This is the case. In fact, their *gear* (including armor) isn't going to be damaged, either. That's just how vanilla SR4 works. It's up to the GM to alter that if people desire.

We're not talking about 'game-breaking', just the magic fluff. The relevant principle of SR magic is that implants are 100% integrated into your 'magical' self (you are 1 indivisible person), and magic cannot target sub-parts of (living) things. There are some minor (and/or arguable) violations of this principle in the book, and there are 2 major ones (Goo/Petrify).

For example, you *could* possibly have something like teleportation magic without necessarily 'breaking the game', but it's completely impossible by the Limits of Sorcery.

Not to mention difficult to balance, as far as you can balance teleportation. I've been working on a very large project...

Ignoring the fact that there have been two elves who have teleported in Shadowrun canonically. >.> So we know it can be done...

Are you sure they did not use a gate for a metaplanar shortcut? If so please tell me who did it and how.

Well, Both Ehran the Scribe and Harlequin have done it.

Hard to really describe it as Teleportation, though. I would describe it as ripping a hole in the Astral and then travelling through it, Using a Metaplanar Shortcut to get to their destination, and then ripping a Hole in Astral and stepping out.

That's the way I remember it. This is not the type of teleportation that is forbidden in SR.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Which is what "teleportation" is in most magic settings. But anyhow, it probably was not a spell.

But thats an whole other can of worms of NPCs are not subject to the rules....

Actually, it is not.
And it IS a Spell (IIRC), but from Earthdawn, where it originated. It is a part of that cross-over crap... Though I imagine it is mimicked as a Metamagic in 4th Edition.

As for them not being subject to the rules, that is debateable. They are not Teleporting in the classic sense. And their magic is completely foreign to the way that typical Shadowrun Magicians understand it to be. *Shrug*

I know of no way for a magician to go bodily into the astral or metaplanes. If you find one, I'd like to know.

None of that is the point. It's just an example: SR sorcery (!= 'magic) has limits, and those limits are fluff. Breaking them is not necessarily 'game-breaking', but it is fluff-breaking. One of those limits is (supposed to be) that you can't target/directly affect parts of what magic sees as a whole (e.g., a person with implants).

There is some tiny room for argument about Heal, Oxygenate, etc., but these are pretty easily understood as affecting the whole; Goo and Petrify are just crazy. Creating a version of Fix that specifically, directly targets implants would be problematic, not for 'game-breaking', but for the sorcery limits fluff. It would be problematic in the same way that a version of Wreck that specifically, directly targeted implants would be problematic.

Now, there is some possibility of leveraging the 'Health vs. Combat' category distinction, basically declaring that healing implants is okay, but attacking them isn't. However, Fix isn't a Health spell, so there's that (neither is Goo, for example). I'm not saying it's not a mess.

They are very internally inconsistent. But by being the rules, they can't be breaking them.

They can, because that's exactly what 'internally inconsistent' means.

I guess the point is:
SR has general rules, which is good both for understanding and balance.
SR often does not care about those rules, which is bad.