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Tashiro
A player has summoned an ally, and had it possess a plasteel 'golem'. Now, the spirit knows Shapechange, does this allow it to transform into an organic creature? And can it then use heal on itself while in this form? I'm... dubious... but if it is 'legit', then I'm willing to allow it. Still, I'm really curious.
pbangarth
I'm not clear. Is he trying to shapechange the golem too? That doesn't work. It requires a voluntary subject. The spirit itself may be voluntary, but the object it is possessing is not. "This spell does not transform clothing and equipment." (SR4A, page 211)
Neraph
The Heal spell cannot affect inorganic materials - therefore, the dual-natured entity created by the possession cannot be healed because it shares a health track.

There's no debate whether or not a spirit can Shapechange. A dual-natured entity, though, can - as long as it is willing. There is nothing in the spell description that prevents this. The spirit, however, will not have access to the Powers of the golem while in animal form, as those are a result of inorganic materials and should not be available just as cyberware/bioware is not available to everyone else. I bet the player's intent was to get a spirit with high stats in animal form that had high armor and a high damage natural weapon on top.

There are better ways to do that.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 1 2012, 06:32 AM) *
The Heal spell cannot affect inorganic materials - therefore, the dual-natured entity created by the possession cannot be healed because it shares a health track.
Care to quote this rule? I know of no special rule stating how to remove damage from the combined entity, nor do I know whether the Heal spell or First Aid would work on spirits. So AFAIK it is pretty much up to the GM what works an what doesn't.
Neraph
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 1 2012, 03:39 AM) *
Care to quote this rule? I know of no special rule stating how to remove damage from the combined entity, nor do I know whether the Heal spell or First Aid would work on spirits. So AFAIK it is pretty much up to the GM what works an what doesn't.

Dangit, was almost done and accidentally closed the window....

Heal is a mana spell (SR4A, page 208, Heal spell description). Mana spells "affect... the target in a magical and spiritual way that is only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being," (SR4A, page 203, Spell Characteristics, Type, emphasis mine). Possessing spirits create a new dual-natured creature (Street Magic, pages 95 [Spirits and Vessels], 101 [Possession], and 102 [Possession and Vessels sidebar]).

So what I should have said was "Yes, you can heal a possessing spirit, regardless of what they are possessing." I balk at the idea of healing a car, but it is permissible with the rules as they are written (so long as it's a possessed car).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 1 2012, 04:27 PM) *
So what I should have said was "Yes, you can heal a possessing spirit, regardless of what they are possessing." I balk at the idea of healing a car, but it is permissible with the rules as they are written (so long as it's a possessed car).
That's the way I recall it as well.
Neraph
Funny thing is that I woke up this morning and looked at what I had said and went "Why did I say that?"
pbangarth
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 1 2012, 10:54 AM) *
Funny thing is that I woke up this morning and looked at what I had said and went "Why did I say that?"

Geez... the story of my life.
UmaroVI
I think what he wants to do is have the spirit run around as a Plasteel Golem normally, and when it takes damage, shapechange into an organic form and Heal itself. You can skip the Shapechange.
Irion
Well, I guess a little bird is also much better to hide, than a plasteel golem...
Falconer
Strongly disagree with Neraph and others... misreading of the rules. The possessing spirit should be allowed neither to shapechange nor to heal. The rules are entirely grey on the subject of healing and viability of the targets leaving it up to GM discretion. And I HIGHLY suggest NOT allowing it for any kind of possession, the mechanic is already highly broken (and I heavily suggest inexperienced GM's outright ban it from PC's to limit abuse and keep their games from devolving from Shadowrun to Magicrun), extending it's limits into grey areas is something I do not suggest doing. If you allow possession of any form, you'll find yourself running into MANY grey areas not covered with ambiguous outcomes which are purely a matter of GM preference.

There would be no question of some of this if your spirit simply possessed a bum off the streets and shapechanged it... or possessed your pet dog. In which case, the rules make it explicit, the possessed subject is treated as unwilling... the plasteel body is an object so I don't think that's a good skirt around the willing requirement. (why not try 'shape plasteel' instead.)


Possession & Services: "(the vessel reverts to its state prior to possession, except for any damage incurred, which it retains)." Damage section... makes it clear that damage is inflicted on both. Healing is NEVER covered though leaving it very grey. Healing is not considered 'negative damage' ever anywhere in the rules and is handled seperately from damage in all cases.

Even an a more extraordinary power like free spirit regeneration only allows it to regenerate a living or prior living vessel and doesn't magically restore a car. ("to it's living form")


The section on P101, expressly refers to p102/103 sidebars for details of this.

The damage section at the end, makes it clear that both entities effectively retain independent damage tracks. Nowhere are immunities of one form granted to the other. The nature of the system is that any damage inflicted is inflicted on both of them... And there are other problems this rule doesn't address... such as stun damage... vehicles and objects are immune to it, but spirits aren't. The only graceful way I've found to handle this is to effectively inflict the stun on the spirit's combined form but ignore it when it seperates since the body is immune to it. (raises interesting questions with say electronics... if the spirit possesses a smartgun and it gets hit with electricity... does it the gun shutdown per the normal electricity rules and reboot! while the spirit suffers stun). Physical damage though would be carried by both forms upon seperation. Infliction of damage is covered, healing of it is never addressed in the entire section.


As a GM I highly suggest that you instead point the player in the direction of much more suitable spells. The main one being 'repair object' and 'shape plasteel'. Which would allow something very similar though at higher casting thresholds without bending the rules into a pretzel. It also puts a little more cost on possession which helps to keep it in line.

If you're insistent on allowing heal to function... then I suggest putting in some kind of limitation such as, you must beat the object resistance of the vessel to heal it (like a repair object spell would). Something again the rules never make it explicit whether they stay or go away...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Irion @ May 2 2012, 02:27 PM) *
Well, I guess a little bird is also much better to hide, than a plasteel golem...
Unless it's a BOD 1-3 Plasteel Golem, shapechanging into a little birdie probably won't work (I don't have the actual stats for little birdies, assumming BOD 1).
ikarinokami
no heal won't work. heal only effect's living things. street magic divides non-living vs living vessels.

the mage would have to use the FIX spell. which is just heal for non living material.
Yerameyahu
The idea is that the result of possession is a single entity, which is 'living'. Yes, as always, it's better to ignore whether or not this is RAW and just play how you know is right. wink.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 2 2012, 08:57 AM) *
[ Spoiler ]

I'm trying to figure out in that rambling post where you stopped reading the rules. I think it was close to the beginning. You can disagree with the RAW all you want, but when I quote rules and refer to specific pages you'd best not say I "misread" the rules, nor should you call rules you don't like "grey." vegm.gif
Irion
@Neraph
As a matter of fact, he is correct, Neraph.


The problem is, that the health tracks are not really merged. For example you may heal the vessel with first aid, but the spirit will still be damaged.
The damage track is only shared for damage sustained, not healing.

QUOTE ("Street Magic p.103")
Physical damage inflicted during possession
is tracked as a single entity. If the spirit and
vessel separate, both retain the full amount of
damage they’ve taken while joined (cumulative
with any previous damage).

It says NOTHING about healing.

There are several instances in the book, which flesh out, that the one in runners Companion
QUOTE ("Runners Companion p.93")
First aid and medicine and medicine do not work on spirits,
although they may work on a possessed vessel. Any healing
or repair given to a vessel
applies only to that vessel’s Condition
Monitor, and not to the spirit’s.

So here is still a destinction between spirit and vessel. (Not everything which heals the spirit is able to heal the vessel. And since the health spell is unable to repair a car...)

Combine this with this fact:
QUOTE ("Streetmagic p.103")
If the spirit or the vessel
has already sustained damage, that damage
stays with them, though only the greater set of
combined wound penalties apply during possession.


You somehow tend to oversee the limitations...

@Yerameyahu
QUOTE
The idea is that the result of possession is a single entity, which is 'living'. Yes, as always, it's better to ignore whether or not this is RAW and just play how you know is right.

Thats true only for damage, NOT for healing.
The Jopp
Spirit possessing vehicle/inanimate object
You need to cast two spells
1: Heal for the spirits damage
2: Fix [vs object resistance] to repair the object

Spirit possessing living being
Heal should affect both the body and the spirit

Well, my interpretation of it.
Yerameyahu
It's not *my* idea, Irion. smile.gif (My idea was, 'do what's right regardless of the RAW'.) That page 93 quote is nice, though, thanks.
Irion
@Yerameyahu
Just pointing out that in this case "do what's right" is quite RAW. As much RAW as possible in this section of the rules...
Neraph
What you've quoted is that you cannot use First Aid or Medicine on spirits - which I never claimed you could. I've only said that the Heal spell works, and quoted rules as to why. Additionally, the rules you've quoted seem to indicate damage prior to the possession, which is a topic I never brought up. So you are correct, and I am correct, because we are talking about and quoting rules regarding different aspects of possession.
Irion
@Neraph
No, you did not. Spirit on vessel only share damage, not healing.
Falconer is right that it is a grey area, because it is only stated that healing of the vessel does not heal the spirit (if it is not fitting).
If healing of the spirit would also heal the vessel, is not stated directly. But since there is no Rule telling it does, I would not assume it.
Espacially after the opposide direktion is specifically denied.

So a healing spell would heal the spirit, but not the car. The wound modifiers would be calculated on object/subject which has accumilated the most damage.

QUOTE
Additionally, the rules you've quoted seem to indicate damage prior to the possession

Partly true. One does. The others don't. The point is, that the rules do not say how it has to be handled during possession. Those are the only rules to fall back on.

(The other possible interpretation would be, that you can't heal a spirit possessing a car with the heal spell. This would correspond to the rules too. )

There are several possibilities:
1. You can heal with a heal-spell the spirit and the car. (Problem: No statement in the rules, that it works this way.)
2. You can heal the spirit but not the car. (Again no direct statement, but it would be the reverse rule of "healing the vessel without the spirit")
3. You can't cast heal at a possessed car. (The most robust interpretation by RAW. Healing can't effect "dead material", to heal both you would need to affect "dead material" so it does not work, because there are no rules for only healing the spirit)

So your first guess, was the right one after all...
darthmord
I would have to say that while it may make sense on the surface that you cannot heal a car possessed by a spirit, it does make sense that you can heal the car.

Why?

Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity. A much stronger case could be made such that this line of reasoning only applies to an Inhabited vessel as Inhabitation is a permanent change as opposed to Possession being a temporary thing.

I also have to say that in the past when it has come up in any game I was running, I always followed that Possession required separate healing/repair. You could repair the vessel (by a Heal spell or Fix/Repair as appropriate for its type) and also heal the Spirit.
ikarinokami
QUOTE (Irion @ May 3 2012, 09:23 AM) *
@Neraph
No, you did not. Spirit on vessel only share damage, not healing.
Falconer is right that it is a grey area, because it is only stated that healing of the vessel does not heal the spirit (if it is not fitting).
If healing of the spirit would also heal the vessel, is not stated directly. But since there is no Rule telling it does, I would not assume it.
Espacially after the opposide direktion is specifically denied.

So a healing spell would heal the spirit, but not the car. The wound modifiers would be calculated on object/subject which has accumilated the most damage.


Partly true. One does. The others don't. The point is, that the rules do not say how it has to be handled during possession. Those are the only rules to fall back on.

(The other possible interpretation would be, that you can't heal a spirit possessing a car with the heal spell. This would correspond to the rules too. )

There are several possibilities:
1. You can heal with a heal-spell the spirit and the car. (Problem: No statement in the rules, that it works this way.)
2. You can heal the spirit but not the car. (Again no direct statement, but it would be the reverse rule of "healing the vessel without the spirit")
3. You can't cast heal at a possessed car. (The most robust interpretation by RAW. Healing can't effect "dead material", to heal both you would need to affect "dead material" so it does not work, because there are no rules for only healing the spirit)

So your first guess, was the right one after all...


I don't think the heal spell would work on spirits for the same reason first aid and medicine don't. Spirits are not living creatures, they don't have biological systems that can be repaired. if first aid which is argueably better than heal, because it can heal both stun and physical damage, i dont see why a heal spell would work were first aid wouldnt.

Yerameyahu
QUOTE
Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity.
Yes, this is the argument. Whether that's a *good* or correct argument (or, if you're a heretic like me, a *desirable* state of affairs) remains to be seen. smile.gif I think many people would prefer a SR world where possession (in stark contrast to inhabitation) doesn't create a combined entity for the purposes of this issue.
Irion
QUOTE (darthmord @ May 3 2012, 01:40 PM) *
I would have to say that while it may make sense on the surface that you cannot heal a car possessed by a spirit, it does make sense that you can heal the car.

Why?

Because for the duration of the possession, it is no longer a car or a spirit. It is a combined entity. A much stronger case could be made such that this line of reasoning only applies to an Inhabited vessel as Inhabitation is a permanent change as opposed to Possession being a temporary thing.

I also have to say that in the past when it has come up in any game I was running, I always followed that Possession required separate healing/repair. You could repair the vessel (by a Heal spell or Fix/Repair as appropriate for its type) and also heal the Spirit.

The problem is, that your general argument is directly contradicted by the rules. If every effect would work on the vessel AND the spirit, you could heal the spirit by applying first aid to a living vessel. But this is not possible. The entire healing is not combined.

The point is, possession is a generally fucked up thing anyway. (As is realistic form)
It does work for as long as you just stick to the "standart" cases. As soon as you overstep...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Irion @ May 3 2012, 04:25 PM) *
The problem is, that your general argument is directly contradicted by the rules. If every effect would work on the vessel AND the spirit, you could heal the spirit by applying first aid to a living vessel. But this is not possible. The entire healing is not combined.
The thing is the Heal spell works on characters, not just metahumans. The combined entity of spirit and vessel is a character, a "player" character even. There is no ambiguity how the effect of a heal spell is applied to characters. Additionally p. 93. of Runner's Companion only refers to Free Spirits as PCs. They are known to work differently from normal Free spirits and summoned spirits.

There is no rule saying that healing is not combined during possession. The rules only states how previous and leftover damage is treated.
Irion
@Dakka Dakka
QUOTE
There is no rule saying that healing is not combined during possession.

True, there are only rules contradicting this assumption.

QUOTE
Additionally p. 93. of Runner's Companion only refers to Free Spirits as PCs. They are known to work differently from normal Free spirits and summoned spirits.

No, in this case they talk about spirits in general. Thats why the free is missing. I guess it was just not though about before, that anybody would need to heal spirits...
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Irion @ May 3 2012, 05:04 PM) *
No, in this case they talk about spirits in general. Thats why the free is missing. I guess it was just not though about before, that anybody would need to heal spirits...
It is under the section "Creating A Free Spirit Character". If you say any statement within this section missing the word Free or missing a mention of PC aplies to all spirits or all free spirits is simply ridiculous. By that logic any spirit could get the Fixated quality and NPC Free Spirits would not be allowed to have for example the Gate Power because it is not among the list of allowed powers ofr PC Free Spirits.
Irion
@Dakka Dakka
It is to be judged depending on the context. The problem beeing is, that you can't strictly seperate the rules.

Yes, it would have been nice if there would have been a section on spirits in general, which explained everything. But there ain't. There are several section, each having bits of information...
(It is probably because before introducing them as PCs there was no need to really flesh out rules.)
Neraph
QUOTE (ikarinokami @ May 3 2012, 08:42 AM) *
I don't think the heal spell would work on spirits for the same reason first aid and medicine don't. Spirits are not living creatures, they don't have biological systems that can be repaired. if first aid which is argueably better than heal, because it can heal both stun and physical damage, i dont see why a heal spell would work were first aid wouldnt.

Magic. Yes, actually, you can Heal a spirit. If you'd like to argue otherwise, find a rule stating that. We have a rule that says you can't use First Aid/Medicine, but there's nothing that I'm aware of precluding spirits for Healing.
Falconer
Agree, you can heal a spirit... hell my astral mage shocked the GM at one point by insta-healing the astral perceiving Phys-Ad repeatedly giving him defacto 'regeneration' (use half successes to reduce healing time and keep healing the 'chip' damage before it got too much to insta-heal). (it's a mana spell... you can heal yourself while astral and not possessed, or anything else living you can touch).

To give another example of possession abuse oddball situations (this one not all that uncommon)... take the above example... mage projects... spirit possesses his body... mage now heals his astral form which also heals his body. (for real fun, have YOUR enemy mage possess the mages unconcious body if present then proceed to attack his astral form... slam *ouch*... *ouch* or watch the mages look of terror when he realizes he never bought 'banishing' because it's useless and he only needs summon/bind).


I disagree that you can heal an inanimate object. I made clear... my arguments.. the rules are very clear on how to handle damage to the combined form. Even how to handle damage PRIOR to the possession as a penalty. The rules only explicitly merge the tracks for damage inflicted though. The only way I've found to CLEANLY handle most all cases of damage to things is to keep seperate damage tally tracks and inflict on both equally within reason (lets face it... how do you inflict stun on a vehicle or object?) Does a fire spirits vulnerability extend to the item as well? (on the fence myself... but if the spirit has say an allergy to insecticide... is insecticide effectively acid to the object).


Lets give a wierd example which you seem to indicate the rules would allow... bike is in bad shape having been shot up... spirit posseses it but has no damage itself. It suffers the injury mods of it's diminished form... despite the fact that it has no damage itself. So now any vehicle can be magically fixed simply by having it possessed without all the extra hassles of the fix object spell and it's nasty object resistance threshold?!

I also gave my other reason for being on this side of a grey area of the rules. Balance. There are a ton of benefits to possessing an inanimate form and very few drawbacks compared to some of the limitations a meat body provides. The only main drawback being the extra difficulty in possessing in the first place.


Lets take another aspect of this... lets say I am on the other side of this monstrousity... do spells like 'shape plasteel' no longer work because it's no longer purely an object in it's combined form? I'd say no... player could shape the sucker to make it of limited usefullness to the possessing spirit. (say by fusing the joints of the golem... changing it from a 'golem' to an unarticulated statue). That's not intended as a straw man, or non-sequitur. But just as if it changes the nature for one spell... does it also for others and other uses.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
Agree, you can heal a spirit... hell my astral mage shocked the GM at one point by insta-healing the astral perceiving Phys-Ad repeatedly giving him defacto 'regeneration' (use half successes to reduce healing time and keep healing the 'chip' damage before it got too much to insta-heal). (it's a mana spell... you can heal yourself while astral and not possessed, or anything else living you can touch).
Good thinking. This would only work on small amounts of damage and low force, otherwise you would accrue a pretty high sustaining modifier.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
To give another example of possession abuse oddball situations (this one not all that uncommon)... take the above example... mage projects... spirit possesses his body... mage now heals his astral form which also heals his body.
I'm not sure this would work. Not even with Channeling does the combined entity have a MAG Attribute capable of (full) spellcasting. Without a MAG attribute you cannot use Magic skills.
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
(for real fun, have YOUR enemy mage possess the mages unconcious body if present then proceed to attack his astral form... slam *ouch*... *ouch* or watch the mages look of terror when he realizes he never bought 'banishing' because it's useless and he only needs summon/bind).
This is one of the drawbacks of possession. Shedim are even worse.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
I disagree that you can heal an inanimate object. I made clear... my arguments.. the rules are very clear on how to handle damage to the combined form. Even how to handle damage PRIOR to the possession as a penalty. The rules only explicitly merge the tracks for damage inflicted though. The only way I've found to CLEANLY handle most all cases of damage to things is to keep seperate damage tally tracks and inflict on both equally within reason (lets face it... how do you inflict stun on a vehicle or object?) Does a fire spirits vulnerability extend to the item as well? (on the fence myself... but if the spirit has say an allergy to insecticide... is insecticide effectively acid to the object).
The rules however state that there only is one damage track for the combined entity. Keeping two is a houserule.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
Lets give a wierd example which you seem to indicate the rules would allow... bike is in bad shape having been shot up... spirit posseses it but has no damage itself. It suffers the injury mods of it's diminished form... despite the fact that it has no damage itself. So now any vehicle can be magically fixed simply by having it possessed without all the extra hassles of the fix object spell and it's nasty object resistance threshold?!
Yes this would work, but except for the extra Karma/BP for another spell it is a lot more hassle (Summon spirit, have spirits posses, cast Heal). Don't forget while Fix has a threshold to work at all, gross not net hits remove the damage boxes. So the spell is not that bad.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
I also gave my other reason for being on this side of a grey area of the rules. Balance. There are a ton of benefits to possessing an inanimate form and very few drawbacks compared to some of the limitations a meat body provides. The only main drawback being the extra difficulty in possessing in the first place.
Balance is a very subjective thing.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 02:44 AM) *
Lets take another aspect of this... lets say I am on the other side of this monstrousity... do spells like 'shape plasteel' no longer work because it's no longer purely an object in it's combined form? I'd say no... player could shape the sucker to make it of limited usefullness to the possessing spirit. (say by fusing the joints of the golem... changing it from a 'golem' to an unarticulated statue). That's not intended as a straw man, or non-sequitur. But just as if it changes the nature for one spell... does it also for others and other uses.
I disagree. A spirit possessing a plasteel golem is not an object. It is a character. It is no longer a valid target for Shape [Material]. For the same reason Shape Flesh and Wreck Cyberware have very limited use.
Neraph
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 4 2012, 11:50 PM) *
Good thinking. This would only work on small amounts of damage and low force, otherwise you would accrue a pretty high sustaining modifier.

I'm not sure this would work. Not even with Channeling does the combined entity have a MAG Attribute capable of (full) spellcasting. Without a MAG attribute you cannot use Magic skills.
This is one of the drawbacks of possession. Shedim are even worse.

The rules however state that there only is one damage track for the combined entity. Keeping two is a houserule.

Yes this would work, but except for the extra Karma/BP for another spell it is a lot more hassle (Summon spirit, have spirits posses, cast Heal). Don't forget while Fix has a threshold to work at all, gross not net hits remove the damage boxes. So the spell is not that bad.

Balance is a very subjective thing.

I disagree. A spirit possessing a plasteel golem is not an object. It is a character. It is no longer a valid target for Shape [Material]. For the same reason Shape Flesh and Wreck Cyberware have very limited use.

+1 for awesome.
Irion
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 5 2012, 05:50 AM) *
The rules however state that there only is one damage track for the combined entity. Keeping two is a houserule.

Nope. There are two, after the rules of RC.
Thats whats happening if you throw in half thought out rules in the first place. Thats why a lot of people banned possession from their games. The rules are just half cooked.
Damage is ONE problem of many.
UmaroVI
I thought about this some more, and I think it is 100% clear that you can cast Heal on a possessed object.

The only thing prohibiting you from casting Heal on a non-possessed object is that Heal is a Mana spell, and Mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.

A possessed object is a living target. Aside from the various factual arguments you can make to this effect - if it isn't, possessed objects are immune to all mana spells, because the rule saying you can't Heal a regular car is the same as the rule saying you can't Manabolt a regular car. That's a can of worms you don't want to open.
Falconer
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 5 2012, 12:50 AM) *
I disagree. A spirit possessing a plasteel golem is not an object. It is a character. It is no longer a valid target for Shape [Material]. For the same reason Shape Flesh and Wreck Cyberware have very limited use.


The rules very unabashedly allow me to turn the street sam into a puddle of goo... then rip the undamaged cyberwear out of the puddle... before unsustaining the spell. Yet you claim that it's impossible to fry the cyberware using a similar spell and leave the meat alone. (this is problematic for other reasons... does the cyberware still have it's seperate damage track? What if I have a gunbunny specifically called shot on the guys cyberarm... can I disable the arm while leaving him intact making him less dangerous when captured... not all that much different... just not allowing you to do it with powerbolt).

More to the point, the spells make no difference as to whether the target is living or dead. Powerbolt works on living or dead items as does practically any other targetted spell. If living it gets a resistance roll (and counterspelling), effectively it has an object resistance of 0... if dead... look at the object resistance chart. For many of the spells such as shape... the living case juts doesn't come up at all... shape concrete... wreck gun (so now it doesn't work if it's a visible cybergun in your book...).

That's only your opinion... that is an OLD topic on this forum... and has been rehashed a few times. While you can't target individual items with powerbolt... more limited spells are not called shots (wreck door as opposed to trying to powerbolt the entire building the door is attached to). Quite frankly we've never had it come up in game... so it's never been necessary to work it out. But that is another grey area of the rules where the GM has leeway.


Then you also bring up shape flesh... but shape wood is given as an example... dead wood has an OR of 1... living wood has no OR but as living it gets a resistance roll. (In the end not all that much more usefull than 'ignite' as the damage is only applied at the end of each combat turn).


And as for heal... you always cast it at force == magic (or 2x magic if you need the hits)... if you know what you're doing, the only question is whether the drain is stun/physical. It's drain is purely a function of how much damage the target has taken and completely unlinked to force... next to none means 0 drain. For someone with only 2-3 boxes of damage, the drain is pretty low. But in the case of a grossly overarmored troll... they typically only end up taking 1-2 points of damage a round.



Falconer
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ May 5 2012, 02:28 PM) *
I thought about this some more, and I think it is 100% clear that you can cast Heal on a possessed object.

The only thing prohibiting you from casting Heal on a non-possessed object is that Heal is a Mana spell, and Mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.

A possessed object is a living target. Aside from the various factual arguments you can make to this effect - if it isn't, possessed objects are immune to all mana spells, because the rule saying you can't Heal a regular car is the same as the rule saying you can't Manabolt a regular car. That's a can of worms you don't want to open.


Logical inconsistency here... the SPIRIT is not immune to mana spells. Nowhere in the rules does it state that the immunities of one form go to the other. Which just goes to show how much of a mess the possession rules are. If I hit the spirit with a manabolt... (mana)... then the rules are handled by the damage to possessed forms section... the same energies by which the spirit animates the vessel also damage it as it takes damage if you want some fluff... but healing != damage.

So I would counter that the heal DOES heal the spirit... but the underlying possessed object is still damaged barring also casting a 'fix' spell.

Overall, the only thing we're having fun arguing about is this. I hold the position it's a grey area of the rules and subject to GM call without resorting to house ruling (for or against). Neraph mainly and others maintain that they are 100% correct and there is no room whatsoever for the GM to work within without houseruling.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 01:51 PM) *
So I would counter that the heal DOES heal the spirit... but the underlying possessed object is still damaged barring also casting a 'fix' spell.


I would argue that Healing a possessing spirit operates in the same way that a possessing spirit with Regeneration has on its vessel.

they're both forms of magical healing.
Falconer
In that case, *ONLY* free spirits can regenerate a previously damaged vessel. And in that case as I pointed out earlier they rules explicitly state can only return it "to it's prior *LIVING* condition".

So no a great form or free spirit cannot regenerate a previously damaged vehicle. And I'd rule it functions in the same manner as the heal spell... heals the spirits form but not the underlying object... so it's possible to do so much damage the spirits fine and just possesses the next handy item/person as it's 'host' sustains so much damage it falls apart. (how I'd handle it.... again like I said... I believe the rules here are grey and can go either way).
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Irion @ May 5 2012, 07:44 PM) *
Nope. There are two, after the rules of RC.
Again, RC concerns itself with Free spirits as Player Characters. Those function differently from NPC Free Spirits and summoned Spirits.

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ May 5 2012, 09:28 PM) *
I thought about this some more, and I think it is 100% clear that you can cast Heal on a possessed object.

The only thing prohibiting you from casting Heal on a non-possessed object is that Heal is a Mana spell, and Mana spells cannot affect non-living targets.
I'd say it's both. The spell being M and the description.

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ May 5 2012, 09:28 PM) *
A possessed object is a living target. Aside from the various factual arguments you can make to this effect - if it isn't, possessed objects are immune to all mana spells, because the rule saying you can't Heal a regular car is the same as the rule saying you can't Manabolt a regular car. That's a can of worms you don't want to open.
I don't get what you are trying to say. While both statements are redundant with the definition of mana spells, they are not wrong.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
The rules very unabashedly allow me to turn the street sam into a puddle of goo... then rip the undamaged cyberwear out of the puddle... before unsustaining the spell.
Yes, but this is only true because of the weird exception in the description of the spell, not because of general rules for magic.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
Yet you claim that it's impossible to fry the cyberware using a similar spell and leave the meat alone. (this is problematic for other reasons... does the cyberware still have it's seperate damage track?
Cyberware never had a damage track. No matter whether it is implanted or not.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
What if I have a gunbunny specifically called shot on the guys cyberarm... can I disable the arm while leaving him intact making him less dangerous when captured... not all that much different... just not allowing you to do it with powerbolt).
Yes Magic works differently from ranged weapons, with the exception of indirect combat spells. These could be used for a called shot. but how many hits are required to disable the arm is up to the GM.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
More to the point, the spells make no difference as to whether the target is living or dead. Powerbolt works on living or dead items as does practically any other targetted spell. If living it gets a resistance roll (and counterspelling), effectively it has an object resistance of 0... if dead... look at the object resistance chart.
True, but it has nothing to do with the problem.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
For many of the spells such as shape... the living case juts doesn't come up at all... shape concrete... wreck gun (so now it doesn't work if it's a visible cybergun in your book...).
If it is paid for with essence, it is part of the character and no longer a separate entity and thus not a valid target. Read the description of the spell:
QUOTE ('Street Magic')
This spell allows the caster to move and shape a volume of a specified element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.) within range. The caster must beat the materialís Object Resistance threshold (p. 174, SR4).
If the material is part of another entity, the caster cannot beat the material's OR because the entity does not have an OR. Not having an OR is something else than having OR=0.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
Then you also bring up shape flesh... but shape wood is given as an example... dead wood has an OR of 1... living wood has no OR but as living it gets a resistance roll. (In the end not all that much more usefull than 'ignite' as the damage is only applied at the end of each combat turn).
See above.

I have to do two posts in a row as the forum only allows so many quotes, sorry.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:31 PM) *
And as for heal... you always cast it at force == magic (or 2x magic if you need the hits)... if you know what you're doing, the only question is whether the drain is stun/physical. It's drain is purely a function of how much damage the target has taken and completely unlinked to force... next to none means 0 drain. For someone with only 2-3 boxes of damage, the drain is pretty low. But in the case of a grossly overarmored troll... they typically only end up taking 1-2 points of damage a round.
As I said as long as the damage/round and thus the time to sustain the spell is low, this works.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:51 PM) *
Logical inconsistency here... the SPIRIT is not immune to mana spells. Nowhere in the rules does it state that the immunities of one form go to the other. Which just goes to show how much of a mess the possession rules are. If I hit the spirit with a manabolt... (mana)... then the rules are handled by the damage to possessed forms section... the same energies by which the spirit animates the vessel also damage it as it takes damage if you want some fluff... but healing != damage.
The combined entity is a dual-natured entity. As such it must also be a living entity. Since this entity does only have one damage track, any damage acquired during possession can be healed by the Heal spell.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 5 2012, 09:51 PM) *
So I would counter that the heal DOES heal the spirit... but the underlying possessed object is still damaged barring also casting a 'fix' spell.
There is only one entity. it is all or nothing. For damage incurred by the object before possession, you are right, because the rules say so.
Irion
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 6 2012, 06:20 AM) *
Again, RC concerns itself with Free spirits as Player Characters. Those function differently from NPC Free Spirits and summoned Spirits.

So you are saying spirits can be healed with first aid?
Falconer
Dakka, you're missing my point here... either interpretation is valid if the GM wishes it within RAW without houseruling in practically all the above. I don't even agree with some of my positions above, but merely argue them for the sake of arguing their vagueness.

The GM is free to say no heal doesn't work because it doesn't work on objects. RC and other sources make it clear that there are two independent damage tracks... and that equal amounts of damage when inflicted are inflicted on each.

In the same way you're free to rule that no, shape wood doesn't work on living trees... while I see no problem with it if say a shaman wants to recreate the haunted woods and use the spell to have trees animate and start grabbing things. (rule of cool... those trees have some pretty good body... so resistance is probably inferior to the roll).


My point earlier still stands though...
Mage astrally projects, by definition his empty body is a prepared vessel for ANY OF HIS SPIRITS.
One of his spirits possesses his empty body. What happens to the mage? (snapped back into his body... trapped in astral til he can get his body back... etc.).
The rules also make it very clear that damage/healing to the body is also done to the astral form... (makes a great case for astrally projecting from within a valkyrie module with an autodoc to continually administer first aid).
I don't know why you don't think that's invalid.
You end up with 2 linked damage tracks... the mage and his empty body. Then another set of linked tracks the spirit and the empty body.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
Dakka, you're missing my point here... either interpretation is valid if the GM wishes it within RAW without houseruling in practically all the above. I don't even agree with some of my positions above, but merely argue them for the sake of arguing their vagueness.
Well my point is that the rules are not in fact vague but clear.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
The GM is free to say no heal doesn't work because it doesn't work on objects.
The point is that an inanimate vessel possessed by a spirit is not an object but a living dual-natured entity. The rules say so.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
RC and other sources make it clear that there are two independent damage tracks... and that equal amounts of damage when inflicted are inflicted on each.
Again, this only applies to PC Free spirits, not any other type of spirit. The rules in Street Magic explicitly say that the combined entity has only one damage track:
QUOTE ('Street Magic p. 103')
A possessed vesselís Physical damage track will generally increase (since its Body increases by the spiritís Force).
Increasing an existing damage track is not adding another one.
Additionally:
QUOTE ('Street Magic p. 103')
Physical damage inflicted during possession is tracked as a single entity.
This is pretty explicit.
PC Free spirits have different rules, but those rules have no meaning to summoned spirits.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
In the same way you're free to rule that no, shape wood doesn't work on living trees... while I see no problem with it if say a shaman wants to recreate the haunted woods and use the spell to have trees animate and start grabbing things. (rule of cool... those trees have some pretty good body... so resistance is probably inferior to the roll).
I'm not arguing what is cool or what isn't. I'm arguing what the rules say. A living creature simply is not a valid target just as you cannot use Shapechange as a form of "Baleful Polymorph".


QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
My point earlier still stands though...
Mage astrally projects, by definition his empty body is a prepared vessel for ANY OF HIS SPIRITS.
One of his spirits possesses his empty body. What happens to the mage? (snapped back into his body... trapped in astral til he can get his body back... etc.).
While there is nothing explicit on this situation, I'd say the mage stays where he is, as there is no rule that something should happen.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 09:57 AM) *
You end up with 2 linked damage tracks... the mage and his empty body. Then another set of linked tracks the spirit and the empty body.
No you end up with one damage track that can be manipulated from both ends. It kind of breaks the separation of planes, but that is what the rules say.
Falconer
No the rules do not clearly say.

You end up with a dual-entity... nowhere does it say it's a living dual-entity. You're adding a word in there. As I pointed out elsewhere... immunities of the forms don't translate from one to another or the spirit would end up immune to stun or other oddball things... so why should another quality such as the 'aliveness' of the spirit. You're making a jump right then and there.

Blah blah blah, p103... "... both retain the full amount of damage they've taken while joined (cumulative with any previous damage)". Nothing in there anywhere about tracked as a single entity, no allowance made anywhere for healing either. If anything the damage section makes it clear that all damage is cumulative and that one-half of the pair has a larger damage track than normal. Nowhere in the entire section is the subject of healing addressed, nor is the 'livingness' of the 'dual-natured entity' ever granted. Which is the foundation of the entire argument.
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 08:40 AM) *
No the rules do not clearly say.

You end up with a dual-entity... nowhere does it say it's a living dual-entity. You're adding a word in there. As I pointed out elsewhere... immunities of the forms don't translate from one to another or the spirit would end up immune to stun or other oddball things... so why should another quality such as the 'aliveness' of the spirit. You're making a jump right then and there.

Blah blah blah, p103... "... both retain the full amount of damage they've taken while joined (cumulative with any previous damage)". Nothing in there anywhere about tracked as a single entity, no allowance made anywhere for healing either. If anything the damage section makes it clear that all damage is cumulative and that one-half of the pair has a larger damage track than normal. Nowhere in the entire section is the subject of healing addressed, nor is the 'livingness' of the 'dual-natured entity' ever granted. Which is the foundation of the entire argument.

You can only come to those conclusions by ignoring the rules.

It doesn't matter if the new dual-entity is living or not; what matters is that it is a dual-entity that is present on the astral plane, and therefore subject to certain spells and effects, as I've stated earlier. Since spirits are themselves a legal target for Heal, the dual-entity would itself also be a legal target for Heal.

At the same time, though, that section does not say healing is disallowed. Just because that section does not explicitly allow healing does not mean that other sections that do allow it are to be ignored. You have to read the whole of the rules, not just bits and parts.
Falconer
Correct, which is exactly my point. Because it doesn't say it does or doesn't. it's left to GM discretion.

Look at your 2nd paragraph... dual-natured only means the dual entity is present on the astral plane and doesn't suffer the normal -2 penalties ignored, presence on both planes, and a little tidbit allowing physical natural weapons rolls in astral combat. Mana spells though still cannot affect non-living matter. Contact with the astral has nothing to do with it. Only mana spells can affect astral beings yes... BUT "mana spells cannot affect non-living targets". So everything here hinges on whether the prepared vessel itself is 'alive'. It's clearly 'animated' but I stop short of saying it's 'alive'. Nothing in the rules contradicts this, you're the one making a leap of faith in asserting the vessel gains 'aliveness'. Using your logic, I can 'heal' a weapon focus... purely because of it's astral presence using rules found purely in the BBB.


The only thing I see in that section is that anything which damages one... damages both and that all damage is cumulative. Nowhere does it say that spells that can't target one suddenly work on the other... and it is a non sequitur to assert as much. Nowhere does it state that qualities of one (such as immunity) are qualities of the other... the only section is that specially constructed & enchanted vessels can give some extra qualtities... (fun exercise... stuff a fire spirit in a wicker man!).

You're the one ASSUMING conclusions from a single sentence that a dual-entity is formed then you make an additional assertions off that sandy foundation, anything which works on the spirit also works on the vessel something NEVER stated by the rules. When I try and pull out a logical.. using that argument anything which works on the vessel should also work on the spirit... others can provide no arguments to the contrary, only spew forth... no it can't... (rubber and glue, playground type stuff), look at cyberware... the spirit paid essence for this how'd cyberware get involved?!.

I could even argue that any spell which doesn't work on both... fails due to the peculiar nature of the dual-entity. The rules are NOT EXPLICIT so leave this to the GM. (your mage is stunbolt happy addict... toss this at him and watch him foam at the mouth when you ask him, what you didn't learn powerbolt?) All that does is force the spirit to seperate itself by going astral, heal itself, then come back... and the rules leave no grey area whatsoever on how to handle that... seperates/comes back damaged vessel more damaged than before...


Aside from earlier: BTW: yes it is possible for a gunbunny to target a cyberarm solo... the rules are VERY explicit as well... any test involving only a limb involves only it's attributes... so for most... that arm is a bod3 (most people only ever upgrade agility & str) with 9HP of it's own to disable... and it would only benefit from cyberarmor isntalled into itself and maybe worn armor as appropriate armor jacket... but not an armor vest...). So it is possible to break an attached piece of cyberware without harming the individual using a called shot without breaking the rules. (I like called shot... option 3 gives players and the GM a LOT of latitude for creativity :).
Irion
@Neraph
QUOTE
You can only come to those conclusions by ignoring the rules.

Right, thats why he has been quoting the rules, because he is ignoring them.

POST ONE RULE WITH THE WORD HEALING IN IT, REGARDING SPIRITS OF ANY KIND.
After the rules (RAW) spirits probably do not even HEAL. (I can think of one out of my head)

QUOTE
At the same time, though, that section does not say healing is disallowed. Just because that section does not explicitly allow healing does not mean that other sections that do allow it are to be ignored. You have to read the whole of the rules, not just bits and parts.

The problem is: It has to be allowed to work. It is never said, you can't fix a car with first aid. So why would it not work?
You are making the one mistake you love to make. You go for the same falsify.

If everything which is not forbidden, would be allowed, trolls would fly.
Your arguments have the same basis.
It is just an insanity. It is like proving something did not happen. It is quite impossible, unless you are really lucky.
Same with the rules. If you would just demand direct contradictions for the most basic stuff, it would be thousands of pages additional for each rulebook.

It is the same in science and laws. What is not proven/possible to see, is not there.
If it does not say you can heal X, by the rules you can't.
If it does not say trolls can fly, trolls can't.
If it does not say a possessed car gets healed by the healing spell, it does not.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 04:40 PM) *
You end up with a dual-entity... nowhere does it say it's a living dual-entity. You're adding a word in there. As I pointed out elsewhere... immunities of the forms don't translate from one to another or the spirit would end up immune to stun or other oddball things... so why should another quality such as the 'aliveness' of the spirit. You're making a jump right then and there.
Living is not even required:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 203')
Mana spells affect their targets through the mana that permeates the astral and physical planesóaffecting the target in a magical and spiritual manner that is only effectively resisted by the Willpower of a living or magical being.
[...]
Only mana spells can affect astral forms.
Dual-natured entities have an astral form.

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 04:40 PM) *
Blah blah blah, p103... "... both retain the full amount of damage they've taken while joined (cumulative with any previous damage)". Nothing in there anywhere about tracked as a single entity, no allowance made anywhere for healing either. If anything the damage section makes it clear that all damage is cumulative and that one-half of the pair has a larger damage track than normal. Nowhere in the entire section is the subject of healing addressed, nor is the 'livingness' of the 'dual-natured entity' ever granted. Which is the foundation of the entire argument.
Do you even read my posts? Increasing a damage track means there are more boxes to the same track. It does not mean that a new one is created. Possession also clearly states that a combined entity is created which is dual-natured. There is no rule saying that any entity can have more than one damage track (for the same type of damage).

QUOTE (Falconer @ May 6 2012, 06:12 PM) *
Aside from earlier: BTW: yes it is possible for a gunbunny to target a cyberarm solo... the rules are VERY explicit as well... any test involving only a limb involves only it's attributes... so for most... that arm is a bod3 (most people only ever upgrade agility & str) with 9HP of it's own to disable... and it would only benefit from cyberarmor isntalled into itself and maybe worn armor as appropriate armor jacket... but not an armor vest...). So it is possible to break an attached piece of cyberware without harming the individual using a called shot without breaking the rules. (I like called shot... option 3 gives players and the GM a LOT of latitude for creativity smile.gif.
No. There are no hit locations in SR. You can only use the four options of a clled shot: more damage, ignore armor, remove an object from graps or achieve a specific effect. Nor are there located armor pieces. If someone had 50 points of armor on his jock cup those 50 points would always count unless the shooter used the option to ignore armor and took the penalty of 50 dice. this is not realistic but so are the rules. The rules are not equipped to handle localized damage. This has been discussed several times before. Please take it elsewhere.

QUOTE (Irion @ May 6 2012, 06:19 PM) *
POST ONE RULE WITH THE WORD HEALING IN IT, REGARDING SPIRITS OF ANY KIND.
After the rules (RAW) spirits probably do not even HEAL. (I can think of one out of my head)
Here you go:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 252')
In the world of Shadowrun, health plays an important role in a characterís ability to continue doing the jobs, legal and illegal, that she does best. This spans from healing the wounds taken in a firefight to recovering from nerve gas inhalation, and even to the kind of damage a character can do to herself through recreational drug use and abuse. What kind of damage, how bad an injury is, and how much it affects the character varies greatly depending on the situation.
The various types of damage and condition monitors are discussed in the Combat chapter, p. 144; healing this damage is covered below.

Healing
Stun and Physical damage both heal naturally, though at different rates. Medical attention can help hasten the process. In both cases, healing is
handled as an Extended Test.
Stun Damage
Make a Body + Willpower (1 hour) Extended Test. The character must rest for the entire hour for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness
also count). Each hit heals 1 box of Stun damage.

Physical Da mage
Make a Body x 2 (1 day) Extended Test. The character must rest for the entire day for it to count (forced naps and unconsciousness also count).
Each hit heals 1 box of Physical damage.
So damage can be applied to any and all characters (including spirits) and can be healed by them as well.

QUOTE (Irion @ May 6 2012, 06:19 PM) *
The problem is: It has to be allowed to work. It is never said, you can't fix a car with first aid. So why would it not work?
You are making the one mistake you love to make. You go for the same falsify.
A car is not a character so not a valid target for first aid. Additionally in case of first aid we can use our knowledge of the real world. With spirits and magic we can't. There we can only use the rules.

QUOTE (Irion @ May 6 2012, 06:19 PM) *
If everything which is not forbidden, would be allowed, trolls would fly.
No. A troll is a human except for the noted exceptions. Humans cannot fly so a troll cannot either unless the rules say so. If you only allow things that are mentioned in the books, humans are immune to any poison that is not in any of the rulebooks.

QUOTE (Irion @ May 6 2012, 06:19 PM) *
If it does not say a possessed car gets healed by the healing spell, it does not.
I never claimed the car gets healed. The combined entity of spirit and car gets healed just like any other character can get healed.
Irion
@Dakka Dakka
QUOTE
So damage can be applied to any and all characters (including spirits) and can be healed by them as well.

By your own logic not. Since SR4 core book has only metahumans as "characters" not spirits.

So no, you can't...
QUOTE
If you only allow things that are mentioned in the books, humans are immune to any poison that is not in any of the rulebooks.

There are no rules how they are affected true. So they can not be affected, unless you make up rules for the poison. Thats obvious.
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