Short and simple.
Is there any kind of back story to this nightmarish creature? Did one of the writers for Critters have a run involving a cute, cuddly armadillo and a barrel of radioactive orichalcum waste in a milspec armor facility?
Why do these things exist, and can I buy one? A pet barghest just isn't dangerous enough.
Full Version: Juggernauts
From what I remember, Juggernaut is a Hindu god that was carried on a wagon, and his wagon would often crush his worshippers that threw themselves under it for some reason or other.
So yeah, basically, some writer was on crack and took the basic concept of Juggernaut and created a giant armadillo for one.
Seemed to have done it with a few legendary beings, too. Baba Yaga, Minotaur, Pegasus, etc. Admittedly, other games had already bastardized the last two, so you can't really blame them on those.
So yeah, basically, some writer was on crack and took the basic concept of Juggernaut and created a giant armadillo for one.
Seemed to have done it with a few legendary beings, too. Baba Yaga, Minotaur, Pegasus, etc. Admittedly, other games had already bastardized the last two, so you can't really blame them on those.
They just awakened, just like 99% of all other metacreatures. None of them really have any special story except I think the Lambton Lizards off the top of my head.
I seriously doubt you'd WANT one of these "ubarhuge" creatures as a pet.
Good for burglars, though.
Good for burglars, though.
Try to get ahold of paranormals of NA, it adds three very important aspects to the juggernaut. Flavor text, an artistic rendering, and a size comparison that shows how one juggernaut foot is larger than a troll or two.
Where the hell would one keep it?
I've been working for the past month or two on a set of houserules for training critters and keeping them as pets/security, including rules of how to maintain them as part of your lifestyle. I'm bogging down at setting a market price for each critter as it takes loads of math to make them reasonable and I'm still not getting a perfect fit (Small dog costs too much, Fenris Wolf costs way too little).
If you want a pet juggernaut, it will be easier to build a house on its back and declare it a mobile home than to try to keep it enclosed anywhere.
I hate Fenrir Wolves.
Fenrir Wolves are fun! Especially when they're cybered up and supported by a few high-Force Free Spirits. Doubly so if they happen to occupy an underground facility of which they have partial control through their cyberware.
Yeah, that was a fun run.
I still think Juggies are weak.
Yeah, that was a fun run.
I still think Juggies are weak.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 13 2004, 01:25 PM) |
| I still think Juggies are weak. |
Then bag one and collect the bounty, why don'cha?
Smartlinked Ultimax MMG on a Ring Mount. A few 7Ds through it's armor and against it's pitiful Body of 15 (less than your average Tank Troll) every CT while driving around it in circles with a jeep.
Or if you like hunting the old-fashioned way, Ranger Arms SM-3 with EX-Ex: 8S per shot plus successes.
I'm the GM though, so it's not much of a feat for me to bag one.
Or if you like hunting the old-fashioned way, Ranger Arms SM-3 with EX-Ex: 8S per shot plus successes.
I'm the GM though, so it's not much of a feat for me to bag one.
Personally, my favorite 'awakened' critter is a housecat with F10 shadow spirit using its hidden life power on it.
But that's not the point. How many juggernauts are there? And do they make good foci?
But that's not the point. How many juggernauts are there? And do they make good foci?
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| If you want a pet juggernaut, it will be easier to build a house on its back and declare it a mobile home than to try to keep it enclosed anywhere. |
Eh, the biggest animal cage I've made has 1400CF of storage space (53-foot-trailer chassis). For Wyverns, Juggernauts, Hydra Wyrms, and the like I reccomended the player have to purchase acreage to keep them on. But the trailer will do to capture it and haul it home for training.
Considering that a typical juggernaut is 14 meters long and probably more than 5 meters wide and more than 2 meters tall, your trailer is too small.
14*5*3=210 m^3 -> 1680cf
14*5*3=210 m^3 -> 1680cf
In paranormal animlas it's toe is the size of a six foot tall human, I think thats a great deal more than two meters.
@ Austere,
Juggy has hardened armor I belive. I am not near my books but I am pretty sure (%60). So that would make your 8S riffle fairly useless without AP or APDS ammo. Why you would want to hunt one I have no idea. They are fairly harmless and just eat trees. Would be cool to look at though.
@ Austere,
Juggy has hardened armor I belive. I am not near my books but I am pretty sure (%60). So that would make your 8S riffle fairly useless without AP or APDS ammo. Why you would want to hunt one I have no idea. They are fairly harmless and just eat trees. Would be cool to look at though.
Yes, it has hardened armor. That's why the figures I gave are what it has to resists, ie. figures that have already been modified by armor. I did screw up, though, because the Ranger Arms SM-3 has a Damage Code of 14S, which means it only does 6S throug the 8 points of armor the Juggy has. The difference is not significant, however, and you'll bag the critter just as easily. The 7D figure for the Ultimax MMG was correct: 9S - 8 for armor + 6 for burst size: 7D. Put a Gas Vent IV on the Ultimax and you can do 11D without trouble.
I have no need to hunt one. I think Juggies are far too weak because of their insanely low Body attributes and the pitiful Power of the attacks, and am thus surprised every time someone thinks they are any threat to anyone.
I have no need to hunt one. I think Juggies are far too weak because of their insanely low Body attributes and the pitiful Power of the attacks, and am thus surprised every time someone thinks they are any threat to anyone.
A foot larger than a troll? How could it's bones support it's weight?
Oh yeah, Juggernaughts rock. Especially the missiles. The little fireballs are comparatively easy to dodge if you've got the space, though.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Considering that a typical juggernaut is 14 meters long and probably more than 5 meters wide and more than 2 meters tall, your trailer is too small. 14*5*3=210 m^3 -> 1680cf |
By your math a troll (2.8 x 1 x 1 meter) roughly requires 2.8 cubic meters of space, or 22.4 CF.
You can fit two trolls comfortably (and 3 if you crowd) in a Reinforced Bench seat that requires 8 CF, even through 3 trolls should take up over 65CF.
Obviously your math isn't at fault, it's Shadowrun's occasionally screwy physics. But with the above in view I am perfectly comfortable asserting that a Juggernaut will be happy with plenty of roaming space in 1400CF.
Yeah, math and Shadowrun don't always mix.
The seat itself takes up 8 CF not the 2-3 Trolls sitting on it.
Actually that counts as their "People Space" in both CF and Load.
And not just the three trolls, that space counts to hold all their gear as well so 8 CF holds 3 trolls, 3-5 assault rifles, a half dozen pistols and SMGs, a riot shield or two, that 40 pounds of HE in a backpack. . .
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Yes, it has hardened armor. That's why the figures I gave are what it has to resists, ie. figures that have already been modified by armor. I did screw up, though, because the Ranger Arms SM-3 has a Damage Code of 14S, which means it only does 6S throug the 8 points of armor the Juggy has. The difference is not significant, however, and you'll bag the critter just as easily. The 7D figure for the Ultimax MMG was correct: 9S - 8 for armor + 6 for burst size: 7D. Put a Gas Vent IV on the Ultimax and you can do 11D without trouble. I have no need to hunt one. I think Juggies are far too weak because of their insanely low Body attributes and the pitiful Power of the attacks, and am thus surprised every time someone thinks they are any threat to anyone. |
Yeah, but would this make any logical sense? Even a .50 BMG round would be about as painful or dangerous to it as a splinter to us by all logic. I mean, consider the shadow text. A guy dropped a cluster of anti-tank bombs on a young Juggernaut and it didn't leave a scratch (granted, PAoNA was written under 1st Ed., but then I am a bit of a fan of the staging rules).
As for it's bones supporting it, if we're going to accept the standard SR "and then a miracle happens" explanation for various things, that's one to do it with. It's magic. Don't ask questions involving "logic."
That's the point he was trying to make. Their stats don't live up to their reputation.
Make them Naval-scale. Problem solved.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Panzergeist) |
| A foot larger than a troll? How could it's bones support it's weight? |
Magic!
Apatosaurus approached that size ( http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/...patosaurus.html ). At one time it was thought that they likely spent large amounts of time wading in water to take the load off their legs. But that has since been largely discarded due to evidence from the fossilised vegetation surrounding their fossils. Also the bones are only part of the problem of a body that large, the other is the massive blood pressure required to supply their upper sides (including brains) with oxygen, athough giraffes face similar issues themselves.
| QUOTE |
| And not just the three trolls, that space counts to hold all their gear as well so 8 CF holds 3 trolls, 3-5 assault rifles, a half dozen pistols and SMGs, a riot shield or two, that 40 pounds of HE in a backpack. . . |
HECK no....
A reinforced bench seat holds 300kg. That's it. a good sized troll witll take ip the vast majority of that space, then add in his equipment. Also that CF is for the seat itself, the occupant is occupying additional space, some of which can be reclaimed, see the secton on R3 on getting CF back by using legroom and headroom, you know, the space around the seat where the person actually goes.
A reinforced bench seat holds 300kg. That's it. a good sized troll witll take ip the vast majority of that space, then add in his equipment. Also that CF is for the seat itself, the occupant is occupying additional space, some of which can be reclaimed, see the secton on R3 on getting CF back by using legroom and headroom, you know, the space around the seat where the person actually goes.
| QUOTE |
| A foot larger than a troll? How could it's bones support it's weight? |
Armored exoskeleton.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 14 2004, 03:06 AM) |
| Make them Naval-scale. Problem solved. ~J |
...well, I was going to say that we could simply apply the vehicular damage rules to really big critters (Juggernauts, dragons, etc), but I guess this works, as long as you can convert their body rating to hull. From what I remember from Rigger3, tho, they're not nearly big enough to have a hull rating. Not by a long shot.
If we apply the normal vehichle rules, 14S becomes 7M, in other words, crap, and AP ammo isn't that big a help (15 body vs 2M). This is also useful for those "dragon vs. nonsense pimped out combat monster PC in a purely physical fight" thought experiments.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
HECK no.... A reinforced bench seat holds 300kg. That's it. a good sized troll witll take ip the vast majority of that space, then add in his equipment. Also that CF is for the seat itself, the occupant is occupying additional space, some of which can be reclaimed, see the secton on R3 on getting CF back by using legroom and headroom, you know, the space around the seat where the person actually goes. |
Yes, the reinforced bench holds only one standard troll w/gear (although 2-3 human sized passengers).
But NO! the troll himself does NOT take up extra CF. In fact there is a design option for seats that you can drop the space cost by (i think it is) 2 CF to make the total passenger/driver compartment for the occupant tighter than normal (downside is more dangerous in a crash). So the CF cost of 8 (6 for non-reinforced) clearly includes all the space for the occupant and normal gear, 10' long polearms not withstanding.
My calculations were based on exactly one specific statement. That a single cf is a volume equal to a cube of a half-meter on each side. Such a cube is 1/8th of a cubic meter. Whether that definition works with the rules for seating is a different debate.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| My calculations were based on exactly one specific statement. That a single cf is a volume equal to a cube of a half-meter on each side. Such a cube is 1/8th of a cubic meter. Whether that definition works with the rules for seating is a different debate. |
CF is roughly 1/8m3, but at the base of it it is an abstract measurement rather than an exact one.
However a 6" tall, fairly beefy male human in nonbulky clothing is going to take up about 1.8m x .5m x .8m = .72m3. Multiply 8 CF/1m3 x .72m3 = 5.8CF, which means 6 CF for a human bucketseat very close. The Troll one is a bit off though, as a 2.5m tall troll would need to be as slender as our 6" tall human to only take up 8 CF. Still, if they hunched a bit they could fit in.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| HECK no.... A reinforced bench seat holds 300kg. That's it. a good sized troll witll take ip the vast majority of that space, then add in his equipment. Also that CF is for the seat itself, the occupant is occupying additional space, some of which can be reclaimed, see the secton on R3 on getting CF back by using legroom and headroom, you know, the space around the seat where the person actually goes. |
Ah no, it has space for all three trolls. Weight isn't CF. In addition, the basic Reinforced Bench only holds 300, but you can add weight-holding capacity without limit for 100 nuyen per 25Kg (R3 153). My statement holds, the bench seat has enough volume to hold the trolls, just spend 1000 Nuyen, add 250 more load for a 550 Bench seat, and there you go. CF and Weight are entirely different matters, just because you don't have enough weight for something doesn't mean you don't have the cargo factor.
| QUOTE (GunnerJ) |
| If we apply the normal vehichle rules, 14S becomes 7M, in other words, crap, and AP ammo isn't that big a help (15 body vs 2M). This is also useful for those "dragon vs. nonsense pimped out combat monster PC in a purely physical fight" thought experiments. |
Making all extremely large critters "vehicles" does indeed solve many problems related to them. The damage dealt by them still remains low enough for pimper out combat monster PCs to be totally immune to any and all of their attacks. If you want to get rid of that problem too, simply double the Power of a Juggy's attack, up to 20D.
Obviously you shouldn't allow small-arms to have AV ammunition in the first place, but if you do, be sure to slap any player who wants to hunt Juggies with a Heavy Pistol and AV ammo.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| A guy dropped a cluster of anti-tank bombs on a young Juggernaut and it didn't leave a scratch (granted, PAoNA was written under 1st Ed., but then I am a bit of a fan of the staging rules). |
That's absolute bullshit, even as a piece of fluff text. The submunitions on anti-tank cluster bombs are designed to penetrate the top armor or MBTs, thus anywhere between 20 and 40cm of rolled homogenous armor -- considering that the 8 points of Hardened armor on a Juggy don't even stop a Heavy Pistol, it was obviously never meant to have anywhere near that kind of armor.
Anti-tank bombs without submunitions (which your text implies were used) don't even exist, because submunitions are plenty enough to blow up any tank. A whole bomb would only make the difference between a burning hulk and a cloud of hot shrapnel.
Uhh, what was my point again... Right: Anti-tank weaponry should still be plenty capable of killing any animal on a direct hit. Armoring a Juggy against such weapons would make it orders of magnitude heavier than any animal that has ever lived in Earth's oceans, never mind a land mammal.
Hmm... Maybe that particular juggernaut had a free spirit's hidden life power...oh, now there's an idea for next week's run...
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| Hmm... Maybe that particular juggernaut had a free spirit's hidden life power...oh, now there's an idea for next week's run... |
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...!
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) | ||
Ah no, it has space for all three trolls. Weight isn't CF. In addition, the basic Reinforced Bench only holds 300, but you can add weight-holding capacity without limit for 100 nuyen per 25Kg (R3 153). My statement holds, the bench seat has enough volume to hold the trolls, just spend 1000 Nuyen, add 250 more load for a 550 Bench seat, and there you go. CF and Weight are entirely different matters, just because you don't have enough weight for something doesn't mean you don't have the cargo factor. |
Unfortunately i don't have the R3 with me at the moment, but if you go to the custom design section for Seats (it's towards the back of that, around pg. 150 +/-) you'll see that 2 -humans- can sit on it, 3 if they squeeze in. Troll >> human.
| QUOTE |
| Hmm... Maybe that particular juggernaut had a free spirit's hidden life power...oh, now there's an idea for next week's run... |
Oooo, yeah!
high force free wasp mothers with hidden life invested in juggernauts! MWAHHAHAHA!!!
Great, now Dikote the juggy and Infect it with HMHVV so it can regenerate! Call it Jugg-ra! Raaaaaar!
At that point you may as well call it tarrasque.
I'd prefer to call it "Oh, my God! Run away!"
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
Anyway, by this point, it should be someone's ally spirit.
Which begs the question: How do you have sex with a Juggernaut?
With dinner and a movie.
*counts off*
dikoted? check
ally sprited? check
HHMVed? check
had sex with? check
Ok, we have covered all the bases but mounting guns on it.
So this should die now?
dikoted? check
ally sprited? check
HHMVed? check
had sex with? check
Ok, we have covered all the bases but mounting guns on it.
So this should die now?
If it's vehicle class, the Body of 15 works just like a Body of 15 on any vehicle, right? You can mount an Extra-Large Turret on it! Dikoted HMHVV Ally Spirit Whore Juggernaut w/ Heavy Railgun!
Hmmm, could you mount guns on it? And if so what and how? Could it handle the recoil of an auto cannon? Naval (Navel 
) Gun?
Eat THIS AT-AT.....
) Gun?Eat THIS AT-AT.....
Oddly enough I have critter-guns in my wip too. You must give the critter a cybertorso to enable it to survive recoil and then it can mount mini and micro-turrets as if it's body were a vehicle's body, though only on the torso.
As for sex with a Juggernaut, well duh! Haven't you seen all the penis enlargement ads on the 'net and in your email?
As for sex with a Juggernaut, well duh! Haven't you seen all the penis enlargement ads on the 'net and in your email?
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| With dinner and a movie. |
300 kilos of prime Angus beef? $6000 (or so)
abandoned drive-in theater? $10000
one chick-flick rental? $2.95
Sex with a 10,000-kilo armadillo? Priceless.
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