A single complex action = 2 simples. Enough for 2 bursts of fianchi. Roll vs 12D damage. Twice. If your not dead from that then my 2 other homies with simular init will have a go at you. Then if your still alive then yeah, you might do something. Magic is not the silver bullet. Yeah its nice against your average brute but when you got 3 guys this fast your pwned. And God help you if we roll surprise.

I'm not completely sure but i thought it said either in the main book or in the rigger that a person defaulting to reaction for driving without a vcr had to default to the unmodified stat, not modified by cyber or bio or magic. someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, that'd work real well against the mage that's two kilometers away who looks indistingishable from every other joe in the spawl. Or the mage that just isn't physically there to be shot by shotguns, pistols, or even orbital rail guns.

Magic may not be the silver bullet, but it's more then capable of eliminating any threat the Troll would be capable of.

Wait, I'm sorry. I'm being a dick again for pointing out the reality of the situation.

Actually fast,.. as compared to what? A cheeteh? Gimme a break. This guys a 10 quickness, and 3d6+10 init. Average human is a 3, 1d6+3. Your mage is probably 1d6 +6. You think his willpower will be a 1 five runs in? No,

In the unlikely event that he loses initiative.

Spirits,.. only good if your alive. And as you know all mages have spirits right by there side 24x7.

And yes the ever so feared manabolt. If a mage is out of sight and attack, yeah not mcuh I can do. Just like theres nothing you can do if something has time to spin up a Vindicator and pour that FA into you. Just like my example with the bow. I'm riding the willpower out til I get some karma, as its easier to raise a 1 to a 6 then then to raise 3 4s to a 6.

Your so hell bent on proving your w1z4rd5 1337n355 that your helping prove my point. You hit someone not expecting it with nearly anything of deady damage thier dead. Including your megaleet mage. I don't care how many bunny spirits you got.

I plan on getting Willpower first thing but its not like a mage looks at someone and knows thier willpower.


BTW let me say thank you to everyone whos helped <yes you too tjn>. Its just turning into something of a "my mages %&$ is bigger" contest. Lets stay on topic

We are on topic. You wanted suggestions, you got 'em. We are merely cautioning against ignoring magic as a threat. As to the initiative, my mage walks around with 7+4D6. Not to mention Inc. Reaction, which can boost Reaction quite well. I would suggest reading the entirety of the magic section of SR3 and MITS, the better to know your weaknesses. Armor spells, Physical Barrier, Combat Sense, etc. can all ruin well-placed shots. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting your character or claiming that mages are the best archetype to play. I'm just suggesting you respect it as a very real threat and protect yourself accordingly.

More like 4d6+4. Average rolled initative will be, 18 for the starting mage, and a 19.5 for the Troll. On average the Troll will go first, but it's not anywhere in the realm of certainty.

Depends on how much Karma the GM gives a session. If it's 10 a run, then yeah, that's not a big problem if he survives for that long (Then again the mage could initate twice for that). If it's 4 a run... the Troll's going to be hurting for some time.

Either way your betting that the GM doesn't throw mages at the party until you've built the karma for it. And any GM worth his salt should ask how the Troll's learning to become more willful. If you've got the chops to portray such a sudden change in character convincingly, all the more power to ya.

Damn straight. While there are limits, it's just much easier to carry around the astral equivelent of a Panther Assault Cannon. You see, LS doesn't have a whole lot of mages to walk the beat to astrally assense everything in the sprawl. But that AK-97? Good luck in any place but a Z zone.

See, Magic and the Matrix are the two things mundanes don't even think about. They understand Trolls, gangers, crazied street sammies, and all other physical threats. Therefore they protect, however best they can, against them. Whether it's hoping Lonestar shows up, joining the gang in question, or even fielding a team of your own specops.

Now the Corps are protected in the Matrix (the fraggers built the damn thing, I'd expect they would)... everyday joe in the sprawl? One malignant decker can ruin their life, permenantly. There's just so much going on that one person just doesn't amount for a hill of beans in this world.

Now astral is more limited as to who can access it, being a rare gift and all, but it's even worse because of that. There aren't even the selfish interests of the Corps to keep things within tolerable levels. There is nothing with any sort of authority in the Astral. And it's wide open.

There could be a mage sitting next to a mundane, listening to their entire life go by, and they wouldn't have a clue until the poor sod got nuked when the mage got bored. And when his body is found the next morning, there would be no evidence, only a few suspicions.

If somehow, the spirits are overwhelmed, I give you Anchoring, SR's Contingency metamagic.

Your welcome cutter07. Sorry bout the topic drift, I still feel the Willpower is gonna get the Troll, and likely his whole team, killed

Spirit see your low Willpower? That's some powerful spirit to get so many successes on the astral perception check, which would mean the team is gonna be toast anyway.

After some reflection, I can see the min-max of this troll. A troll of Willpower 2 isn't going to be twice more likely to resist the mage (after all, the TN has only a min of 2), but the karma costs of boosting an Attribute as opposed to using Attribute points makes it a good trade off. And you should be under the spell defense of the team mage.

BTW, if you read my encounter with him, you should have had an idea the type of person he is. intended, but tjn is coming across as being touchy.

My dear toturi, whatever gave you that idea?


(To be totally clear, that was wholly tongue-in-cheek)

Actually you can specialize in a MA, its both in the SR3 book and CC.

Shotgun will default to pistol. With the RC, smartgun 2, and spread TN reducations I doubt I'll have an issue. In fact the shotgun/roomsweeper are just for crowd control and unarmored targets.

Biotech is a must for any runner. Not sure how most GMs play Docwagons but they don't go most places a runner goes without spending the megabucks. It keeps you and your homies alive and reduces downtime in the longrun. Besides every good bodyguard needs first aid right?

I asked for advice, not peoples startass comments (such as yours). So far you havent given any good advice

It might be in SR3, but I seriously doubt it's in CC. Page 88 of CC sez:

I can't help with munching a character, because I'm horrible at it. Besides, I've never had to practice because I'm the GM.

And so far you've proven my point.

Don't why you're attacking me. I guess I hope it makes you feel better...Let me know how it works out.

Checked the BBB, you're right about the specializing in MA. It is not in the CC that I could find. I'll need a page number for that. The defaulting to pistols works for me. The biotech...well, that's probably why I said "up to you," isn't it?

And every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks he can build a better troll b/c you ASKED US FOR HELP, remember?

Let me clear up a few things for ya: when you post to this board don't expect every one to read your post and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. It rarely is. Everyone has his or her own opinions and when you ask for them don't act all "ohmgod, youdon'tseeitthewayIseeit?!."

Another thing, don't take the critizing personally. Its not aimed at you (though, I am tempted...) its aimed at your ideas and for the most part has been constructive.

And get used to the smartassed comments. They're more common than Pred II at KE Convention. If you really don't want more smartass comments, I suggest you don't respond to them.

Jeez, Dr. Funkenstein isn't even around anymore. You, my friend, have it easy with me.

Literally? No. But sort of, yes. With his mates Boogie Woogie Wookie and Infinity Cubed, and a few others I can't remember.

You mean the Street specialization vs the general skill? It does have a general component in 3rd Edition. I never played 2nd Edition, but I think back then Etiquette was broken into several skills. What used to be a separate active skill of "Street Etiquette" in 2nd Ed is now just a specialization of "Street" in the general active Social skill "Etiquette".

I'm pretty sure he meant the skill rating in Stealth is 4. That's 8 dice for most tests involved with the ImpAb. The skill rating has to be at least 4, because he's got ImpAb-4 in it, and it probably isn't higher than 4 because the numbers say 4.

Amen to that, chummer!

Yeah, it's 4(8). I just forgot to notate it since this was a quick mockup of a more versitile character. Also, the skills only add up to 23 skill points because 4 of those 27 points went to buy martial arts manuevers. I also didn't notate the edge weapons/katana skill as 5/7(7/9).

8 dice is plenty for stealth because of traceless walk and a camo suit (+4 to virtually all stealth rolls... still vulnerable vs. scent or thermosense).

Personally, I absolutely hate giving a troll a lot of cyber and/or the suprathyroid because of the decrease to signature. Signature 5 is bad enough, but the initial character is .3 essence away from signature 3. Considering the low number of dice drones tend to roll for sensors no their own, you want to keep the number as high as possible. If the troll above knew there was a lot of drone activity around, he'd likely change out for signature increasing camo instead of urban.

Going without bioware also means that the character has truely low healing TNs (particularly with quick healer). He's got lower physical stats and better mental stats (except intelligence... if you want to be smart, why are you playing a troll?). He's less likely to shrug off being shot, but he's also a lot less likely to be shot at (8 stealth dice and some magic vs. no stealth).

If you wanted to really twink the character, it's a simple matter of taking the highest level ambidexterity edge and a second edged weapon (not necessarily dikoted). That'd raise his melee combat roll to 12-13 dice (fewer if the offhand weapon is not a katana) instead of just 9.

The character's first act should be to raise his etiquette base skill to 2, and then start filling in some of his other holes, depending on the way the team is put together.

You only need the 6 point version of ambidexterity for two weapon melee fighting. The last level only takes effect with a second ranged weapon, if I read the rules correctly.

I disagree.

Using a cell phone in a public place would be worse.

Why? because I would be beating you to death with it. (I HATE CELL PHONES!!!)

OK, I realised that Tinkergnome didn't ask for this build to be critiqued but since it is on a "pls critique" thread so... here goes.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that the troll is focused on melee more than range. Yes, the object is to make thr troll more versatile but it really doesn't cut it if you are spending 3 power points on Imp Reflexes so you can shoot a Predator more time in a round at skill 4(I assume that you know that initiative doesn't really count very much in melee).

Also you didn't really maxed the MA maneuvers. Read the conversion rules. If you started with a martial arts specialisation in unarmed combat, you can convert into an equivalent Martial Art skill with appropriate Maneuvers (this is VERY munchy).

And lastly I would use the BP system, because of the "free" BPs from the Flaws.

In single combat, no it's not very important. However there are some important reasons to go ahead and blow the power points on the power.

1. Better reaction. The troll has a base reaction of 3, which would pretty much guarantee surprise and other problems with rolls which call for reaction.
   
2. I don't know where everyone gets the idea that a melee fighter doesn't need to be fast. That's only true in the case where you're fighting one target who can't call for backup and is cornered or can be defeated in one attack (which is, admittedly quite a few targets for this type of troll). Nothing says when it comes to his initiative that he's got to fight you hand to hand. Smart opponents (hell, most opponents on seeing a troll with a reach weapon) would get the hell back and shoot you. If they can do so without moving past you (ie, they're not cornered), you don't get any free attacks on them and they don't even take any penalties to hit aside from wound modifiers. Not to mention the problems a radio call for help are going to cause. If it takes you 2 melee passes to bring a target, and he's getting 2 actions a turn to your 1, you've just taken 2 simple actions worth of gunfire and/or radio calls.
   
3. The troll is much more flexible. If he wants to get LMG and a smartlink, there's nothing stopping him (he can geasa away a point of powers no problem).
   

That's... stupid. Unless there is a damn good reason, there's no way I'd let someone get away with that (like no one in the group owns the book and then one got it).

There's no such thing as a "free" BP. However, you can certainly make a better character using those rules. I just stuck with the generation system the original poster used.

Yes, the low reaction might be a drawback, but don't you think Combat Sense 3 might be a better solution on the low Reaction?

Calling for backup may be throwing a spanner into the works but please remember unless you are able to kill the opponent BEFORE he even has an action, it is likely that he is able to call backup anyway. Backing away means the opponent spends his turn moving, I don't think he would be able to shoot you in the same turn, unless he moves only in 1 initiative pass but in that case the troll should be able to keep up (note: most trolls would lose out in such a situation anyway)

I used the conversion rules as an exercise in Munchkin-fu, because it is stated that you can do so.