So, a quick question for all you mage fetishist (pun intended).

two situations

1) Mage is sustaining a spell, he is knocked unconscious
a) does the spell go down?

2) Mage has placed the same spell on a sustaining focus, he is knocked unconscious
a) does the spell go down?


My thoughts would be yes for sure in #1

I am fuzzy and unsure of #2, my gut says that yes, the spell would go down, because he is no longer in "control" of the spell.

Whatcha got for me dumpshockers!


p.s. Thanks in advance!

1) Yes. Since the mage can no longer concentrate on the spell, the effect ends (SR4A, page 184, Step 7: Ongoing Effects).

2) No. Since the Sustaining Focus is now in control of the spell, the focus itself will need to be interrupted for the spell effect to end (SR4A, page 199, Sustaining Foci [or it be Counterspelled (SR4A, page 185, Dispelling Sustained Spells)]).

I would say yes for item number 1. No for item number 2. The reason for the no on #2 is the focus is sustaining the spell, not the caster. As such, it is keeping the mana flow active.

So, essentialy speaking, a mage could hang an Increased Reflexes spell on a sustaining focus, and never have to worry about it again (unless another mage, or a background count etc, disrupts it)

Yes.

That's exactly the PURPOSE of a Sustaining Focus.

On a semi-related note, where does it say you can't stack increase relexes with other reflex boosts?

It doesn't. But the other non-drug sources that increase IPs explicitly don't stack with anything else.

Yea, I guess it does. Thanks.

Yes, it does:

Read the question again Dakka Dakka...
It was not a question about stacking spells, it was about stacking spells with technology.

Woops.

I've always understood it as being that temporary IP boosts stack with permanent ones up to the max, and spells are temporary boosts. So a Sammy with a 2nd IP from starter level 'ware can take drugs to get a 3rd IP no problem, and likewise can then have a mage sustain a spell on him to give him a 4th.

~Umi

Umi... actually the rules are clear on whether drugs and other stuff stacks or not. Most of them include text saying not cumulative with any other IP booster or not cumulative with certain types...

Adept - improved ref... cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases to initiative (drugs aren't excluded by this)
Mage - Improved Ref... doesn't have a non-stacking clause... but doesn't really need one... every other IP booster except drugs says it doesn't stack with it! (again 4 successes is pretty trivial to get; so why are you playing with drugs if you have this spell?!)
Bioware - Synaptic Booster: Cannot be combined with any other form of initiative... (so incompatible with drugs)
Cyber - Wired Ref: Cannot be combined with any other form of initiative enhancement EXCEPT reaction enhancers. (incompatible with drugs)
Cyber - MoveByWire: duplicates Wired Reflexes restrictions... (incompatible with drugs)

As far as a spell goes... it doesn't need to stack at all. All you need to do is cast it at the right force and overwrite. Really force 4 or 5... with 4 successes gets you 4 passes on the street sam. There is no reason to allow them to stack especially because it's trivial to get enough successes to get all 4. In fact, I'd say it shouldn't stack.

Drugs a lot of people allow to stack because there's a severe downside which comes along with their (ab)use. But strictly speaking drugs only stack by RAW with the magical initiative enhancements.

Since they don't stack, you simply take the best bonus from the various gear...

AFB so not certain, but doesn't one need to be conscious to keep a focus active? Thinking about it, this sounds like just the kind of thing that RAW would skip over.

It takes a Simple Action to activate a Focus and a Free one to deactivate it. Additionally a Focus is automatically deactivated, if it is removed from the character. An unconscious character cannot take a Free Action, so unless the Focus is removed, it remains active.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I have trouble with the idea that physical contact is required but consciousness isn't, though I can see a richer game in allowing sleeping magicians to maintain spells.

If consciousness were required, how would you justify the ability to use the Focus while astrally projecting? At least the physical body is unconscious.

It's not unreasonable to include foci in the distinction between astral projection and mundane causes of unconsciousness. Especially since you are using the foci somewhere other than its physical location, so there is already a big distinction.

Actually it takes a complex action to activate a sustaining focus... they're special in that regard.

They remain deactivated until you specifically use a complex action to cast a spell through it... this activates the focus.

Still doesn't change the free action to deactivate part...

Think of it like Dresden Files: you have to take the effort to connect the magical circuit which will stay active until something breaks it (removed from person, specifically targeted, Ward interaction, ect) or you take the effort to break the circuit.

On a side note, Quickening/Anchoring would also work until dispelled.

On the IP side topic going, I was under the impression that the general shadowrun rule was, unless an exception was printed (as with the matrix initiative boost that stack to 5) that you did not stack such bonuses, only the highest applies.

As far as I know this is correct.

There is no such general rule. Individual Initiative Enhancements state if they do not stack. There is no rule against taking three different drugs to get +3 IPs.

So is it a good or a bad idea for a mage using invisibility to sustain it with a focus?

Why wouldn't it be?

Cause if you get knocked out, you just hope to hell your team can find you?



Edit: Had it happen in D&D with a ring of invis, got caught in a fireball, brought me to -1, party had no idea...bled out

Plus, if their commlink is subscribed to a Tacnet, the team should still know where they are at.


Blood pool should have helped... unless there was a lot of that.

well..bled out is kind of a general term...i was actually downed by a big fraggin blast of fire, that charred the entire area (including me) and the HP just kinda ticked down slowly as i lay there smoldering along with everything else

Problem is, yeah...they can find you...but if you need quick help, its going to be touch and go, they still can see you so they will have to work based on feel, then they have to hope that they know what to remove, or just take everything off you by feel (which could be both awkward AND fun! )

As I've said above, I'm not that big a fan of sustaining foci at all. If you're wanting Improved Invisibility so you aren't seen by cameras you'll need a Force 6 foci, which is prohibitively expensive in both nuyen and karma. It can be a good idea nonetheless for normal Invisibility unless your team fails the rolls to see through your spell and the enemy does not, in which case your team will not be able to save you as easily if you go down.

The sustaining foci would continue so long as the mage was in contact, even if he is unconscious. If he is dead though, then the foci becomes inactive. Thats why mages get APDS rounds instead of GEL... mages must die.

Cameras are OR 3 and vehicles are OR 5+. There has been some discussion whether you need to beat OR 3 or OR 5+ to disappear for vehicles, since vehicles perceive the world through cameras.

Or they get more gel/SnS. If you can see him while he is still standing you will still be able to see him, when he is unconscious.

... I like it for Healing spells. You can drop the spell through a sustaining focus, then go do somethign else (possibly, Heal another wounded ally).

Not really that good an idea unless you are willing to spend a lot of Karma and nuyen on it. Usually you cast Heal at maximum force (either at MAG or 2*MAG if you are willing to take physical drain) so you do not lose hits. Since most magicians start with MAG 5 a Force 5 or 10 focus will be very expensive.

Cameras are only OR 3 Neraph... Therefore, only a Force 3 Sustaining Focus is required.
EDIT: Dakka Dakka beat me to it...

But *IF* the camera is part of a sensor suite... say Camera + motion sensor... then the OR goes up to 5.


That's the reason drones get the higher resist on their sensors... that and magic doesn't let you break the drone down into it's constituent parts. (with some exception for material specific direct spells... shape metal would allow you to reshape metal bits of the drone without affecting the electronics for example).

Which I do not agree with. In our Game, Cameras, whether on a drone or not, are OR3. You are not targeting the Camera/Sensor array. You are setting up a condition that the Camera/Sensor array then perceives. That is a VERY big Difference.

Questionable. Or what category would "drug" be?


Depends on how you handle the heal spell. If you just heal "hits" points of damage, it is probably not such a bad idea to cast it at a lower force.
Anyhow: Sustaining foci below 4 are useless anyway. (Due to BC)

Chemical...




No, they are not...

Invisibility is NOT invisibility in the classic DnD way... remember it's sort of a fading/shimmering... it's more akin to blur/better blur/eventual invisibility. At least against living targets.


The point of a sensor suite is it has extra sensors working in concert which have a greater chance to see through the invisibility... the motion sensor would still detect the invisible target. It would then direct the camera to pay more attention looking for odd things (such as heat shimmers or similar bits which would allow the camera to see the target). Yes OR is all or nothing... but that doesn't mean you can't fluff it up a bit.

So no, the RAW here does make some sense to me.

To me I've always viewed this as... the ultrasound motion sensor picks up something... the camera then looks to corroborate the motion sensor... if you got 5 or more successes... the camera doesn't corroborate so the sensor doesn't detect you. As opposed to something which is only a camera which has no extra corroboration (sorta like a much more limited version of a single node tacnet).

I do understand that Falconer... But Motion is not covered by Invisibility anyways, which is why the Invisibility Spell would fail against that particular Sensor, regardless of whether it was OR1 or OR 1000. It does not cover Motion Sense, nor Ultrasound, nor UWB Radar, etc. Invisibility is only effective agaisnt visual sight.

A Sensor Suite gives you MORE varied ways of penetrating the Invisibility, but it is not harder to cast the spell whether those sensors are on a Vehicle or a box mounted to the wall, it is the same sensor suite.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

So Gentech and Bioware are biological?

@Falconer

Nope, it is perfect. You can't see the target. Or their would be sensor/perception tests against it. What you are talking about is camoflage.


If somebody got you with ultrasound, he got you with ultrasound.

Did they re-errata that? Just checked by SR4A book and it lists Electronics as OR 4.

Genetech and Bioware are Bioware Augmentations per the RAW. They are Technological in nature. Drugs are not classified. You COULD count them as Technological (I know many that likely do so), but you could argue otherwise as well. Some could be natural, some could be biological, etc. I chose the term Chemical, because I thought it was funny.

Used an Old SR4A didn't you? All mine, including the PDF and the Precious, Use 1,2,3,5 for the OR table.
Cameras are OR 3 per that progression.

Well unless the drug dose occurs naturally (which none do AFAIK) at least some technology is needed to make them, so you could argue that drugs are included in technological initiative enhancers.

My point is, if you are talking magical, technological the only thing left out is natural.

Irion:
I see your point... drugs could be technological... good catch.


Also good catch in the invisibility... I was confusing it with camouflage. Sometimes I confuse myself with prior editions as well.

I just don't see a problem with higher OR on certain systems than others. IF the camera is built into a commlink the commlink is OR5... just like the drone... what about redundant process manufacturing... I disagree that casters should be able to pick and choose certain systems out of a complex technological system and not have to beat the full OR.

Why is it I can fool the drones camera with an OR3 roll of an improved illusion given TJ's house rule, but I can't target that same camera seperately from the drone using powerbolt to blind the drone permanently? It's a logical inconsistency in the approach.

Like I said, if I have multiple sensors and a processing node behind the camera... the camera has more sources of information and might notice more. The higher threshold also helps keep mages in line... as it keeps riggers/drones as their achilles heel and otherwise I feel it does make things a bit too easy. Yeah there's a camera on the wall... great you beat it... but that patrolling drone.. it still saw you because you didn't make your infiltration roll (you relied only on magic and didn't avoid the drone).

Because your Illusion DOES NOT ACTUALLY TARGET THE DRONE OR THE CAMERA. it establishes an effect that the Camera Perceives. That Improved Illusion Spell NEVER targets the camera, it targets that which you wish to make invisible. Why would a drone mounted camera all of a sudden get more "protection" from that spell than one mounted to a wall? Simple case: It wouldn't.

The benefit of a Drone is taht it can have MORE than a simple camera, most of the time. Because of that , it will have sensors that are likely unaffected by the Spell.