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Samoth
Entire post spoilered for size
[ Spoiler ]
_Pax._
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 09:23 PM) *
[...]

Formatting is your friend. frown.gif

Also, a lot of your responses clearly reflect yur pesonal bias based on playstyle, and preferred role/archetype within the team.

A few specific highights:

QUOTE
Human Looking - Seems like by 2073 racial predjudice would be dying off

You're kidding, right? It's been 48 years since the Civil Rights act, and 150 years since the Civil War. Yet, anti-negro racism is alive, well, and even thriving in many parts o the U.S.

Antisemitism is still strong throughout the entire world, too.

QUOTE
Photographic Memory - Allows for metagaming

.... how ...??

QUOTE
Biocompatability - OK if you plan on taking yourself to the limit, but I find that there generally aren't enough useful modifications for this to be practical

Even if you only plan on getting .... oh, Wired Reflexes 2, high-rating Cybereyes, and that's it? Going from 3.3 Essence cost to 2.97 Essence cost is pretty darned nice. Essentially, this lets you treat every implant of the matching type (Cyber or Bio) as if it were Alphaware, without paying extra nuyen.

QUOTE
Adrenaline Surge - overpriced, pass

Disagree. The value of this depends on the frequency of combat encounters, versus the frequency of Edge resets. A free point of Edge in every combat, regardless of refreshes? Could be worthless ... could be worth it's weight in orichalcum.

QUOTE
College Education - Knowledge skills are worthless

Then your GM is doing it wrong. Very wrong.

QUOTE
Common Sense - metagaming

This one is intended for NEWCOMERS. For people who don't know the setting, or perhaps even the genre.

(part 1 of 2 - darn limit on quote-blocks)
_Pax._
(part 2 of 2)

QUOTE
Fame - Fine if that is your character concept

... triples the income from Day Job.

QUOTE
Juryrigging - Your group's mage should know Fix

Juryrigging is about more than just repairs.

QUOTE
Linguist- Languages aren't hard to come by

I just built a Face/Mage character for a PbP here on Dumpshock. He speaks 7 languages, including his Native English, at a root level of 3. Thus, Linguist was worth 12BP of Knowledge/Language skill points - a profit of 7BP. I can raise each 1 more point, to 4 - and get the full +2 bonus, speaking each as well as a full-on native speaker. Getting ranks 5 and 6 free is worth 11 Karma. Across six skills, that's 66 karma saved.

And I don't plan on stopping at 6+Native languages spoken, either. I'm pondering picking up the Linguistics adept power, too. Then, the cost of an effectively R6 "native" language will be only 9 karma each ... instead of 24.

Linguist has already paid for itself. By the time I'm at 10 non-Native languages spoken? It iwll have paid for itself a dozen times over, if not more.

QUOTE
Made Man - seems like the negatives outweigh the positives unless you also get paid as a day job

A reasonable assessment and I agree. Made Man should come with Day Job (at twice the hours worked) as a package-deal, single Quality.

Thanks for the new houserule. smile.gif

QUOTE
Night Vision - Vision enhancements aren't hard to come by

Human mage. 'nough said.

QUOTE
Sense of Direction - Your comlink has a GPS

GPS doesn't work so well, inside signal-blocking structures. Or deep underground. Or within the AoE of a strong jammer. Or when your commlink has been stolen, EMPed, or just plain had it's batteries die.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 23 2012, 09:00 PM) *
Human mage. 'nough said.


Rating 6 Goggles with Thermographic Vision, Low-Light Vision, Imagelink, Vision Magnification [Optical]. That's 625 nuyen and Availability of 12 and you can cast your spells through the magnification.

EDIT:
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Exception Attribute - Only useful for certain situations (raising odd numbered attributes to even numbers to increase modified max.) Too expensive.

Not so for the SURGE variant of this ability. Also you left out the SURGE qualities from Runner's Companion. I find SURGE 2-3 is very useful for picking up Metagenetic Improvement for basically free, maybe a second one if you have the spare BP (30 'free' for SURGE 3, allowing you to pick Metagenetic Improvement once for free, and then a second time for another attribute for a cost of 10BP).

Also, most of the time, the opposite is what you want - changing an even-numbered attribute's softcap to an odd one (for stuff like Body, Willpower, which determine your Damage Tracks at 8+(Attribute/2), round up).
Lantzer
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jun 24 2012, 03:08 AM) *
Rating 6 Goggles with Thermographic Vision, Low-Light Vision, Imagelink, Vision Magnification [Optical]. That's 625 nuyen and Availability of 12 and you can cast your spells through the magnification.


Which aren't particularly fashionable at a evening garden party, or particularly concealable if searched at a checkpoint.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Lantzer @ Jun 23 2012, 10:13 PM) *
Which aren't particularly fashionable at a evening garden party, or particularly concealable if searched at a checkpoint.


Rating 3 Contacts (150 nuyen base, 6 Availability) plus Low-Light Vision (+4 Avail, +100 Nuyen), Vision Magnification [Optical] (+2 Avail, +100 Nuyen), Image Link (- Avail, +25 Nuyen). Gives you the same thing as Night Vision, plus a longer Line of Sight for your spells for a total of 375 nuyen and availability 12, no licenses needed for either set. So the 'concealable' bit isn't really a point of contention, as none of the enhancements have a Restricted or Forbidden availability, so they're all perfectly legal. Why would you need to conceal something completely legal?
RelentlessImp
Alright, my turn to give a good look rather than glancing at people's replies.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Photographic Memory - Allows for metagaming
Common Sense - metagaming

Players should not be punished for not knowing things their character should. It's the opposite of metagaming, the definition of which is the character knows things that their player does when they really shouldn't.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Erased - Easier to have this done for Nuyen during the game

If I read Erased correctly, it happens on a regular basis for no nuyen spent on your part. Fairly worth it.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Biocompatability - OK if you plan on taking yourself to the limit, but I find that there generally aren't enough useful modifications for this to be practical

I find this really useful on Mystic Adepts, myself, for getting as much out of your Essence as possible.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Genetic Heritage - Hoo boy, up to GM discretion to keep everyone from having "Genetic Heritage: Synaptic Booters 3"

I thought this only applied to Genetech; genetic restoration, phenotype adjustment, transgenics, and genetic infusions. Stuff that actually plays around with genetics, rather than stuff that's added to your body later on in life. In other words, the stuff detailed in pages 72-94, as nothing else is referred to as a 'genetic modification'.

QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Sprit/Spell Knack - Don't see this being very useful

Why not, I ask you. Sure, they'll never be as good as an actual mage pumping their spells out, but being able to summon one specific type of spirit or cast a specific spell adds a little variety to your average mundane.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
(In Debt) - Should be a positive quality - even though it isn't I really like it, free money, huge BP gain, and instant plot hooks and character flaws.

It's also a huge crutch. See the next quote.
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Everything marked as 'fluff only'.

Fluff is a very big part of this game, moreso than most other Pen and Paper games. Mechanically, yes, you're correct, most of these do nothing but give your character some personality and flavor, which you should be able to do on your own without being paid for it - but getting paid for it is oh so good in terms of negative qualities.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
Rating 6 Goggles with Thermographic Vision, Low-Light Vision, Imagelink, Vision Magnification [Optical]. That's 625 nuyen and Availability of 12 and you can cast your spells through the magnification.
Not nearly good enough. They need to cast with Thermo, etc.
QUOTE
Why not, I ask you. Sure, they'll never be as good as an actual mage pumping their spells out, but being able to summon one specific type of spirit or cast a specific spell adds a little variety to your average mundane.
*shrug* Your average mundane has more than 0.0 Essence worth of augmentation, which instantly destroys the Knack.
QUOTE
If I read Erased correctly, it happens on a regular basis for no nuyen spent on your part. Fairly worth it.
Beyond worth it. Erased is unspeakably overpowered. smile.gif
QUOTE
I find SURGE 2-3 is very useful for picking up Metagenetic Improvement for basically free
Yeah, that's not 'useful', that's munchkin. It certainly is *effective*, anyway.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 23 2012, 11:07 PM) *
Yeah, that's not 'useful', that's munchkin. It certainly is *effective*, anyway.


Does it help my case at all that I never combine it with anything other than human and, on the rare occasion, dwarf? nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
Ha, you should do what you want. I just wanted to highlight the understatement of 'useful' for SURGE. smile.gif
KCKitsune
Contacts and goggles do NOT allow a mage to cast in conditions that a normal human can not see in.

Also, cyberware is not just for mundanes. Getting one point of cyber is a GREAT way to make a mage MUCH more survivable. Synaptic booster level 1 does not set off security alarms, and it ALWAYS works. Activating and deactivating a Sustaining Focus is a nice way to draw unwanted attention on yourself. I have a mage with 2 points of 'Ware, and while he is not as mystically strong as a normal mage, I know that I can cast in ANY lighting condition (low light + eye light system = Win) and with the Radar and Ultrasound system in his left hand, he can easily see invisible opponents.

The Orientation system in his lower right leg makes it so that he doesn't have to rely on GPS or a commlink (which is also in the same leg) to know where he is.
LurkerOutThere
What Kitsune said. If you want to use alternative vision mods for spell casting you either need to have them naturally or pay essence for them. Even contacts arn't going to work for you. Get a set of binoculars are pretty much suck it up.
_Pax._
QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jun 23 2012, 10:08 PM) *
Rating 6 Goggles with Thermographic Vision, Low-Light Vision, Imagelink, Vision Magnification [Optical]. That's 625 nuyen and Availability of 12 and you can cast your spells through the magnification.

QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jun 23 2012, 10:21 PM) *
Rating 3 Contacts (150 nuyen base, 6 Availability) plus Low-Light Vision (+4 Avail, +100 Nuyen), Vision Magnification [Optical] (+2 Avail, +100 Nuyen), Image Link (- Avail, +25 Nuyen).

There's one thing you're overlookign here: in both cases, teh mage is unable to target spells in the dark. These items provide electronic sensors, not purely optical. Oh, in bright light, sure, teh magnification in the goggles works fine. But in teh dark? Not the low-light, not the thermographic.

Unless the mage pays essence for them, they cannot use electronic vision sources to target their spells.

Whereas, night-vision? Works just fine for throwing spells around.

QUOTE
Gives you the same thing as Night Vision, plus a longer Line of Sight for your spells for a total of 375 nuyen and availability 12, no licenses needed for either set. So the 'concealable' bit isn't really a point of contention, as none of the enhancements have a Restricted or Forbidden availability, so they're all perfectly legal. Why would you need to conceal something completely legal?

Just because something is perfectly legal to own, doesn't mean it's perfectly legal to carry it around on your peson.

For example ... Knives, in the state of Connecticut. I can buy any knife or sword I want (except switchblades and similar). I can walk around on my own property, carrying and even (nonthreateningly) brandishing it, to my heart's content. Indeed, I have some knives, and a gimmicky sword that nonetheless holds an edge. No especial permit needed to buy them, or own them. In SR terms, they don't bear either an F or an R on their legality codes - just like, say, the Ceramic Knife in SR4.

But if I step one foot over my property line with one? BAM, arrested.
_Pax._
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 23 2012, 11:36 PM) *
Also, cyberware is not just for mundanes. Getting one point of cyber is a GREAT way to make a mage MUCH more survivable. Synaptic booster level 1 does not set off security alarms, and it ALWAYS works.

Cybereyes also don't set off alarms. Nor do Skillwires. Both of those are so common, they're probably not even worth a comment from security or the cops.

A good, low-cost suite for a Human mage:
  • Synaptic Booster [R1] (Bioware; 0.5 Essence; 80,000 nuyen.gif )
  • Cybereyes [R2; Low-Light, Eye Light, Flare Compensation, Visual Magnification, protective covers] (Cyberware; 0.3 essence; 4,350 nuyen.gif )
  • Skillwires [R2] (Cyberware; 0.4 Essence; 4,000 nuyen.gif )

The net cost is 0.95 essence and 88,350 nuyen. If you have more cash to throw at augmentations, you could instead do:
  • Synaptic Booster [R1] (Bioware; 0.5 Essence; 80,000 nuyen.gif )
  • Cybereyes [Alpha, R2; Low-Light, Eye Light, Flare Compensation, Visual Magnification, protective covers] (Cyberware; 0.24 essence; 8,700 nuyen.gif )
  • Skillwires [Alpha, R3] (Cyberware; 0.48 Essence; 12,000 nuyen.gif )

This one costs 0.97 Essence, and 100,700 nuyen.

Metahumans could drop the Cybereyes (and rely on contacts with flare comp and optical magnification) for another level of Skillwires, in both cases:
  • Synaptic Booster [R1] (Bioware; 0.5 Essence; 80,000 nuyen.gif )
  • Skillwires [R3] (Cyberware; 0.6 Essence; 6,000 nuyen.gif )

The net cost is 0.85 essence and 86,000 nuyen.
  • Synaptic Booster [R1] (Bioware; 0.5 Essence; 80,000 nuyen.gif )
  • Skillwires [Alpha, R4] (Cyberware; 0.64 Essence; 16,000 nuyen.gif ; Availability 16!)

This one costs 0.89 Essence, 9600 nuyen, and 5BP for "Restricted Gear".

Meanwhile, moving all those physical skills from stuff your character knows, to stuff your character bought at StufferShack, or Kong-Walmart, frees up BP to spend on your Magical skills. An active skill bought as a Skillsoft costs an effective 2BP per level, rather than 4BP per level to know it yourself. And post-character gen, you can expand and upgrade your skillsofts for money, rather than Karma ... well, to the limit of your skillwires' rating, anyway.
Sephiroth
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 23 2012, 08:23 PM) *
Exception Attribute - Only useful for certain situations (raising odd numbered attributes to even numbers to increase modified max.) Too expensive.

It's useful for AI's, since Rating is the average of all four mental attributes. This allows for an AI PC with a Rating of 7.

QUOTE
Genetic Heritage - Hoo boy, up to GM discretion to keep everyone from having "Genetic Heritage: Synaptic Booters 3"

I am sorry, but it does not work like that. Synaptic Boosters are not geneware.

QUOTE
Lighting Reflexes - only useful for a non-magical, non-modified character -- so not useful. Also expensive.

Can be useful for any combat-oriented Infected character with 2 IP's. It is also useful for Free Spirit PC's.

QUOTE
Sprirt Pact - Just get an ally spirit

One does not simply get an ally spirit.


Also, I echo the sentiment expressed above: If you think knowledge skills are worthless, then your GM is doing something very very wrong.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Sephiroth @ Jun 24 2012, 02:15 AM) *
I am sorry, but it does not work like that. Synaptic Boosters are not geneware.

Yes, actually, they are. It's an obscure bit of the text, but per page 93 of Augmentation (emphasis mine):

Animal Features: Animal features can include any phenotypic
modi cation drawn from normal animal lifeforms.  ese might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,
claws, and other animal characteristics. Note that such physical alterations
do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. Full functionality
requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).


The trick is ... Genetic Heritage can give you that transgenic alteration free of charge.

In fact, the FAQ actually addresses this (emphasis again mine):

QUOTE
Can you use Genetic Heritage to take bioware as a transgenic modification?

Yes, with the gamemaster’s approval.

--- and ---
QUOTE
Can I get bioware as genetech? If so, can I get it in different grades, and what is the Essence cost?

Sort of. Most of the functional changes available through bioware are available through the Animal Features transgenic alteration genetech for comparable Essence and nuyen costs (p.93, Augmentation); i.e., a transgenic digestive expansion would cost 0.5 Essence and 20,000¥.

The exact limitations of what is and what is not available are up to the gamemaster; as a rule of thumb for gamemasters out there: if it’s in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it’s probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy; though anyone who’s had children could at least make an argument for little parasites growing inside of you being completely natural.

Unlike bioware, however, genetech is not available in grades; therefore any transgenic alterations of this type will be based on the base Essence and nuyen cost of the bioware.

Yes, this does mean that a character with the Genetic Heritage quality can get a piece of bioware as a transgenic modification for “free” (i.e., no nuyen cost) with the gamemaster’s approval; the character still has to pay BP for the quality and Essence for the bioware/transgenic modification.


The catch is, "with GM approval".
Glyph
Exactly. The GM has to approve using genetic heritage for anything other than non-standard geneware, and I don't think too many would let synaptic booster: 3 fly.

Other than that, it doesn't look like you had any major problems with the positive qualities, other than not finding some of them useful. And that is subjective. Analytical mind, for example, is useful because it gives you a +2 bonus to data search, which is a very important skill for the legwork part of the run.
RelentlessImp
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 24 2012, 12:20 AM) *
Just because something is perfectly legal to own, doesn't mean it's perfectly legal to carry it around on your peson.

For example ... Knives, in the state of Connecticut. I can buy any knife or sword I want (except switchblades and similar). I can walk around on my own property, carrying and even (nonthreateningly) brandishing it, to my heart's content. Indeed, I have some knives, and a gimmicky sword that nonetheless holds an edge. No especial permit needed to buy them, or own them. In SR terms, they don't bear either an F or an R on their legality codes - just like, say, the Ceramic Knife in SR4.

But if I step one foot over my property line with one? BAM, arrested.


Except Shadowrun as a system doesn't really take that into account. If it doesn't have an R, you can have it on your person without being red-flagged. If it has an R, you need to show a license. If it has an F, you better have one damned good explanation, and even then you're probably looking at a fine or some jail time along with confiscation of property. The game world needs to match up with the mechanics, otherwise you're just needlessly screwing your players. So if it's not Restricted or Forbidden your players should be good to go.
Shortstraw
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 24 2012, 03:20 PM) *
There's one thing you're overlookign here: in both cases, teh mage is unable to target spells in the dark. These items provide electronic sensors, not purely optical. Oh, in bright light, sure, teh magnification in the goggles works fine. But in teh dark? Not the low-light, not the thermographic.

Unless the mage pays essence for them, they cannot use electronic vision sources to target their spells.

Whereas, night-vision? Works just fine for throwing spells around.


Just because something is perfectly legal to own, doesn't mean it's perfectly legal to carry it around on your peson.

For example ... Knives, in the state of Connecticut. I can buy any knife or sword I want (except switchblades and similar). I can walk around on my own property, carrying and even (nonthreateningly) brandishing it, to my heart's content. Indeed, I have some knives, and a gimmicky sword that nonetheless holds an edge. No especial permit needed to buy them, or own them. In SR terms, they don't bear either an F or an R on their legality codes - just like, say, the Ceramic Knife in SR4.

But if I step one foot over my property line with one? BAM, arrested.

That's true enough I have a friend who is a chef and it's illegal for him to bring his knives to work.
Xenefungus
Concerning Aptitude, it's actually 20 Karma for the Quality + 14 karma to raise the skill to 7, so all in all 34 Karma for that last point, not 70. That's still one of the more expensive dice though, not really efficient.
ravensmuse
I would say that Samoth's observations are interestingly limited in scope. Especially his thoughts on Knowledge Skills.
Samoth
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Jun 24 2012, 10:37 AM) *
I would say that Samoth's observations are interestingly limited in scope. Especially his thoughts on Knowledge Skills.


Knowledge skills have a "use" as much as you make them. What I meant by my comments is that getting modifiers to specific rarely used skills isn't a great use of BP (how often do you use Elven Wines anyway?) I know some knowledge and language skills get more use than others in real gameplay, but strictly by the crunch they aren't as useful as Active skills, and I was basing my opinions on the useful crunch side as opposed to flavor.

Also, Knowsofts and Linguasofts (while not perfect and not for everyone) are criminally cheap and readily available.

By the way, I appreciate the comments disagreeing with my opinions -- it's always good to get perspective on areas I don't normally pay a lot of attention to.
ravensmuse
See, and I disagree.

Knowledge skills are there to round out a character's concept. Unless you're just looking to make Kloud McShooty face, a character is going to know some things. He's going to have hobbies, interests, and things that he's just picked up; those are your knowledge skills. The nice thing about it is that buying knowledges aren't something that's going to pull from your main BP pool, which kind of encourages you to go crazy with them.

Knowledge skills are also going to help round out your contacts - if your guy knows this guy, how does he know them? Is it through a shared hobby? He's met them in the Dragon<3 fandom? Went to a Boston Brawlers game and met him over a beer? Things like that are as mechanically important as the ability to shoot people in the face (for money).

Same can be said for languages - if your character knows various languages, why?

In the shoot face, make money sector of the game, knowledge skills fall flat on the ability to get shit done. However, if you also approach it from the roleplaying side of the spectrum, surprisingly knowledge skills are useful (and fun).

By the way, I have a player whose character should probably have taken Animal Empathy - she's a gator wrestler from Alabama, who, after a discussion yesterday, is debating opening up her own zoo / paranimal rehabilitation center.
cryptoknight
I tend to use some of the Knowledge skills as "Common Sense" to a degree.

This comes in hand when I'm running Convention Missions Games...

Player: "Ok so we drive the Van through the fence, and the brick wall of the prison"

Me: "Anybody have Knowledge Engineering/Construction/Security Systems?"

Players: "Yes"

Some dice rolls later and I either explain to them how that might work based on what their characters know, or how there's no way their current plan has a chance of success.... and why...

It may be a cheap way to use knowledge skills, but in a 4 hour time slot Convention game, it comes in handy.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 24 2012, 03:06 AM) *
Exactly. The GM has to approve using genetic heritage for anything other than non-standard geneware, and I don't think too many would let synaptic booster: 3 fly.

Generally, I would restrict it to "rating 1 only". And possibly still would say "nope" to various specific implants.





QUOTE (RelentlessImp @ Jun 24 2012, 03:14 AM) *
Except Shadowrun as a system doesn't really take that into account. If it doesn't have an R, you can have it on your person without being red-flagged.

Explain the Ceramic Knife, then. It's availability is just plain "4" - yet it's loved so much, because it can be HIDDEN from MADs and the like.





RE: Knowledge skills, and their usefulness: Legwork, chummers. Legwork. That's where knowledge skills are going to come in handy. (As well as for RP / fluff reasons, which have their own importance.)

For example ... the Dwarf Magician Adept "Combat Face" I just built for a PbP here? Had 18 free points of knowledge/language skills ... and I spent another 18BP on them ... and, yes, he has the Linguist quality. Native English speaker, also has 3 ranks (4 effective) in Japanese, Korean, Or'zet, and Salish, and 2 ranks (3 effective) in Russian and Sperethiel. All the languages needed to deal with (and understand the background-chatter of) all the major players n Seattle's criminal underworld. He also has (KN: Seattle bars and nightclubs), (KN:Combat Biker), and (KN:Seattle Gangs [Identifiers +2]).

As a former go-ganger, yeah, combat Biker is just a tick-mark on the sheet to me. But, knowing where bars and nightclubs are? Could be useful for setting up meets, stakeouts, and so on. Being able to identify gangers - including their gang - on sight, notice when you'v emoved into someone else's territory, and so forth? Likely to be VERY useful.
Yerameyahu
There's probably a website or seven about those gang identifiers, though. And nightclubs, etc. That's always the point: all info is everywhere. It's certainly less *convenient* than a skill you paid for, and the SNR is worse, but it's also free. smile.gif People should certainly get and use Knowskills for background, RP, and in-character thinking, but it's important not to overstate their utility in this world. In the end, they have as much power as the GM arbitrarily gives them, starting from a base of near-zero. The GM *should* give you an edge for something you (wisely or foolishly) paid for, but it could easily be a very small edge.

But I thought this was about Positive Qualities? Things like Linguist have the additional consideration of opportunity cost, because you can only take a small number of PQs. Those BP are worth more than normal BP as a result. So if languages were 'marginal, depending on GM fiat' before, they're much more so after you're trading the chance at other PQs for it. smile.gif Same for the various Knowskill PQs, and so on.
thorya
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 24 2012, 08:55 AM) *
For example ... the Dwarf Magician Adept "Combat Face" I just built for a PbP here? Had 18 free points of knowledge/language skills ... and I spent another 18BP on them ... and, yes, he has the Linguist quality. Native English speaker, also has 3 ranks (4 effective) in Japanese, Korean, Or'zet, and Salish, and 2 ranks (3 effective) in Russian and Sperethiel. All the languages needed to deal with (and understand the background-chatter of) all the major players n Seattle's criminal underworld. He also has (KN: Seattle bars and nightclubs), (KN:Combat Biker), and (KN:Seattle Gangs [Identifiers +2]).

As a former go-ganger, yeah, combat Biker is just a tick-mark on the sheet to me. But, knowing where bars and nightclubs are? Could be useful for setting up meets, stakeouts, and so on. Being able to identify gangers - including their gang - on sight, notice when you'v emoved into someone else's territory, and so forth? Likely to be VERY useful.


I agree that knowledge skills are useful, but the fact that you made a character that spent BP on knowledge skills doesn't actually prove that knowledge skills are useful. I can spend 50 BP to have in depth knowledge of a stack of obscure Tibetan dialects, but it does not mean that it was well spent or that is was poorly spent, just because I chose to make a character that way. And if they are useful in your game, it's still just your game.

Every skill is just as useful or useless as the gaming group (predominantly the GM) decides it is. Parachuting is an active skill that I've never had a player take, because no one every had a use for it. Just being an active skill doesn't make it more useful, but if we were playing a drug running campaign where people frequently had to bail from aircraft in hostile territory, it might suddenly become more useful than a pistol skill. It's entirely subjective.


As for qualities. I have always hated that they made them all multiples of 5 BP. There are several of the "nice but not necessary qualities" that should really be closer to 2 or 3BP in terms of equivalent purchases at character creation.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
As for qualities. I have always hated that they made them all multiples of 5 BP. There are several of the "nice but not necessary qualities" that should really be closer to 2 or 3BP in terms of equivalent purchases at character creation.
Mucho agree, especially given the tight PQ limits. Addiction/Compulsion/etc. have non-5 setups… but they all add to n*5 when they're done! Sigh.
Aerospider
Ambidextrous - Wide burts remove the need for any offhand weapon

How so? What about melee-focused characters?


Blandness - Blending into the crowd only does so much when everyone has a camera with a recorder

Not everyone uses their cameras constantly and you’re forgetting the shadowing/locating penalty which is not useless.


Double Jointed - How often do you need to use Escape Artist?

When you need to you REALLY need to.


High Pain Tolerance - Useful, but easliy replicated with cyber/bio/magic

This one I consider under-effective. With a rank of 1 you could have a little or a lot of damage and there’s a two in three chance your tolerance does nothing.


Home Ground - Great if you do all of your fighting in your apartment

This quality is SO not meant for combat. +2 on all Active Skill Tests? Consider all the magical skills (Banishing not so much), Compiling and Registering, Disguise and most of the Technical skills like First Aid/Medicine and the Mechanics. This quality gives a lot of bang for the BP.


Mentor Spirit - Can be cheesed very easliy

The GM is responsible for seeing that this quality significantly impacts the roleplaying of the character and no GM worth his salt should find that an issue or a turn-off.


Natural Immunity - Too expensive and too broad

Are you saying it costs too much AND does too much for the cost…?


Quick Healer - healing is really easy and cheap, so I say not a good quality.

I agree healing is too easy, but using one or both of the optional rules makes it suitably harder and makes this quality appealing. It’s also a nice bonus to First Aid where there’s already a two-hit threshold to beat and more often than not some negative modifiers will be in play.


Spirit Affinity - fluff-only, no actual benefit

If the fluff aspects of your character hold no benefit the GM isn’t doing his job properly.


Will to Live - If you are already in Overflow I don't see much benefit for this.

I’ve seen more than once instance where this would have saved a character’s life (or at least saved a HoG Edge spend).


Analytical Mind - I don't see many times this would come in handy unless you battle the Riddler every week

Worth it for the Data Search and Software bonuses.


Born Rich - It should give you a free 25,000Y for taking this quality, not force you to spend extra BP on it as well

This is just the cash version of qualities like Exceptional Attribute, except that it only applies at chargen and for that it is 10BP instead of 20BP. Turning it into a cheaper-money quality would have the same affect as having Exceptional Attribute include a rating increase – i.e. every character who had positive quality BP to spare would pick it.


Deep COver - this always seemed like a Negative to me

This quality is definitely positive but the campaign has to be able to accommodate it and this will require a lot of special consideration. The player gets to play a side-game and how it affects the other characters (whether the other players are aware or not) can make for great story-telling.


Inspired - Why not just take Fame?

Fame is dangerous because almost anyone might know who you are. Inspired also has a skill bonus.


Mistaken Identity - All fluff

One of the best ways to counteract eye-witness identification.


Privileged Family Name - negatives outweigh the positives

What outweighs “get out of jail free card”?


Sensei - Worthless

The GM can make this useful. The Matrix may be full of free tuition, but this should be at a low rating. Make the Sensei an expert teacher with top ratings.


Tough as Nails - Better than Will to Live, but still of questionable use (rethink why you are taking so much damage)

Because you are a Shadowrunner and that’s what Shadowrunner’s do?


Intiutive Hacking - I suppose this is useful

I don’t. Half a dice pool in order to save the cost of a program? They’re hardly expensive or hard to come by.


More than Metahuman - Not useful

It’s cheap enough for the benefit of using a complex action as soon as you jump in.


Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 24 2012, 09:11 AM) *
Intiutive Hacking - I suppose this is useful

I don’t. Half a dice pool in order to save the cost of a program? They’re hardly expensive or hard to come by.


Depends upon the Optional Rules in Use. For us, since we use the O-Raw: Logic + Skill with a Cap by program, it is HIGHLY useful, since you cap at your Intuition (How we actually apply the Quality) and do not have to have a Program to accomplish it. Sort of a Poor Man's Technomancer without all the Fancy Powers and lack of Hardware. Sill less than optimal, in a lot of cases, since you would need a large number of Intuitive Hacking Qualities, but since you can get them in play, they are not too bad. I have a character with 4 such Qualities (My version of Canray's "Accountant from Hell"), and he is a blast to play.

Any Quality can be put to good use if you think about it hard enough.
Yerameyahu
Home Ground is not necessarily 'in your apartment'. It could more reasonably be that you know this *neighborhood* (etc.) like the back of your hand. Honestly, I would not allow it to affect most uses of technical skills (as implied above, situations where you're prepared, taking your time, and so on); that's what sneaky Advanced Lifestyles are for. Home Ground means you know the area: what's available, what's normal, etc.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 24 2012, 02:06 AM) *
Exactly. The GM has to approve using genetic heritage for anything other than non-standard geneware, and I don't think too many would let synaptic booster: 3 fly.

It is also non-upgradeable. If you have a Synaptic Booster 1, you can upgrade it to level 2, and so on.
CanRay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 24 2012, 11:21 AM) *
Home Ground is not necessarily 'in your apartment'. It could more reasonably be that you know this *neighborhood* (etc.) like the back of your hand. Honestly, I would not allow it to affect most uses of technical skills (as implied above, situations where you're prepared, taking your time, and so on); that's what sneaky Advanced Lifestyles are for. Home Ground means you know the area: what's available, what's normal, etc.
Excellent example of using Home Ground.
Falconer
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 24 2012, 12:29 PM) *
It is also non-upgradeable. If you have a Synaptic Booster 1, you can upgrade it to level 2, and so on.


Umm... most GM's I deal with don't allow you to upgrade bioware at all. You want a higher rating... rip it out and reinstall it from scratch. ESPECIALLY things like synaptic which need to be specially cultured and grown custom for you THEN implanted.


The bigger problem with having it genecrafted is that it's basic grade bioware... you can't get it as alpha/beta/delta.


Not saying all do, but my experience is the majority of GM's don't allow upgrades... you take out the cyber... sell it for a rebate against the new stuff.. then stuff in the new part. Type-O basic bioware you can also do this with... but not the cultured bioware.

Yerameyahu
While true, you missed the point. KCKitsune was arguing that you cannot rip out the genetech in the first place, *so* you can't upgrade it. It's in your genes, you're stuck, and you can't install bioware SB:2 while you still have SB:1 present and active.
Falconer
Yera... I don't know about that... cultured bioware is cultured, grown, and replaces some normal genetic system you already have. I don't see why someone with genetic heritage couldn't have it ripped out and reinstalled. It is an interesting reading though.


To me that's like saying... ok you have a bicep muscle. But you went in and regrew it with muscle toner. Now when we upgrade we need to take it out and replace it again. BUT YOU you grew up with the muscle toner mutation right away... so we can't rip out the exact same muscle and replace it with a newer non-genecrafted version of the same muscle. It makes sense to a degree, but I'm not certain it works well in practice.

Glyph
The mysterious implant flaw implies that geneware can be removed when it talks about the possibility of getting a permanent infusion removed. However, I imagine removing geneware would be more difficult than removing or upgrading bioware.

Genetic heritage certainly needs to be watched for abuse. That throwaway line about most bioware being available as geneware for similar nuyen and Essence costs opens up a whole can of worms. Getting something like synaptic booster: 3 or a suprathyroid gland as a freebie is only the first part. The other area of potential abuse is that the quality makes other transgenic genetic enhancements cost 20% less! So worst case scenario, with a lenient GM: synaptic booster: 3 for free, and a lot of other bioware at a 20% discount.
Yerameyahu
I'm just telling you what the argument you were responding to was. smile.gif The rules don't mention it, AFAIK.

It's my impression that most GMs only allow the sort of 'animal' gene mods described in that section, not the (often wrong) FAQ idea of 'any bioware'. So it doesn't really matter too much.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 24 2012, 01:18 PM) *
I'm just telling you what the argument you were responding to was. smile.gif The rules don't mention it, AFAIK.

It's my impression that most GMs only allow the sort of 'animal' gene mods described in that section, not the (often wrong) FAQ idea of 'any bioware'. So it doesn't really matter too much.


There are animals who have 2 passes inately. Therefore you can justify the inclusion of Synaptic Boosters 1, if nothing else. smile.gif
Yes, Genetic Heritage does need to be watched. But really, it is not that bad. Since you cannot get Geneware in any Grade but Standard (Basic) Grade, it is not that big of a deal, really. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
They have two passes, but they don't have Synaptic Booster. They can *try* to justify it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 24 2012, 07:37 PM) *
They have two passes, but they don't have Synaptic Booster. They can *try* to justify it.


Semantics...

Transgenics allow you to take on animal qualities. This would include IP's, just like it includes visible mods like fur, fangs and whatnot. Now, it would not include 4 IP's, as no animal has that in the books, but 2 IP's, as represented by Synaptic Boosters 1, would (and should) be fair game due to descriptions of how Transgenics actually work mechanically. And since the books actually say that you can mimic any Bioware with Transgenics, well, that is why it needs to be watched. Some things SHOULD be allowed, while others are just ludicrous. smile.gif

For the record... I would allow Synaptic 1 with Transgenics, but nothing better.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 24 2012, 04:11 PM) *
Ambidextrous - Wide burts remove the need for any offhand weapon

How so? What about melee-focused characters?


For melee characters, getting martial arts might be better, since you effectively get +1DV and ambidextrous for 7BP.

QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 24 2012, 04:11 PM) *
Quick Healer - healing is really easy and cheap, so I say not a good quality.

I agree healing is too easy, but using one or both of the optional rules makes it suitably harder and makes this quality appealing. It’s also a nice bonus to First Aid where there’s already a two-hit threshold to beat and more often than not some negative modifiers will be in play.


Healing is too easy? Did I miss something? Stun cannot be healed by magic, and remember that First Aid has a base threshold of 2 and a boatload of negative modifiers depending on location and implants/magic/resonance. Also note that it is capped at skill rating. Given the time constraints during a run, taking excessive damage usually means that you'll have to sit out the rest of it, and lose your share of the pay.

Please elaborate on "Healing is too easy". I feel like I missed something here.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 25 2012, 08:23 AM) *
For melee characters, getting martial arts might be better, since you effectively get +1DV and ambidextrous for 7BP.



Healing is too easy? Did I miss something? Stun cannot be healed by magic, and remember that First Aid has a base threshold of 2 and a boatload of negative modifiers depending on location and implants/magic/resonance. Also note that it is capped at skill rating. Given the time constraints during a run, taking excessive damage usually means that you'll have to sit out the rest of it, and lose your share of the pay.

Please elaborate on "Healing is too easy". I feel like I missed something here.

Sure there are difficulties (which I did mention) but some feel that the time it takes to heal is disproportionate to the amount of damage incurred. At Body 3 you're healing an average of two physical boxes a day, which means the average human can go from near death to perfect health in less than a week, and that's without any help like magic or medicine. I'm AFB but I seem to remember that the book even states that this was deliberate for gaming rather than realism purposes. I don't usually have a problem with the game overriding my expectations of realism, but this is one area I draw the line. I don't want a game in which players aren't fussed about how many boxes they cross out and duly run headlong into danger and I feel RAW encourages such a mentality.

I once ran a campaign (3rd I believe) where the troll let himself get needlessly shot up and laughed it off. At the beginning of the next session I showed him his medical bill and totalled his loss of downtime and there was an immediate change of attitude.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 24 2012, 06:55 AM) *
Explain the Ceramic Knife, then. It's availability is just plain "4" - yet it's loved so much, because it can be HIDDEN from MADs and the like.


I own one myself. It's coated in teflon at that. Of course, your average person or LEO won't know what it is when they see it and I could easily claim it as a letter opener, since the edge itself isn't sharp at all. Now, the fact that I could just as easily stab someone to death with it is another story entirely...
DMiller
I do miss when you needed a certain lifestyle in order to heal specific amounts of damage naturally.

IIRC Overflow (>10) required Hospitalized (ICU), Deadly Damage (7-10 boxes) was Luxury lifestyle, Serious damage (4-6 boxes) was High lifestyle, Moderate damage (2-3 boxes) was a Middle lifestyle, and Light damage (1 box) required at least a low lifestyle. You got bonuses for having a higher lifestyle than needed. Of course back then everyone had 10 boxes, no matter how high your Body was. I could be wrong on the lifestyle line-up but I think I’m close (I’m AFB right now).

-D
Yerameyahu
Elfenlied, it sounds like you never heard of a medkit? :/

TJ, I never understood why people say 'semantics' like it's dismissive. smile.gif That's the same as rejecting a proof by scoffing, 'That's just math!'. My point was that the player there has a *hint*, a tiny implication that their proposed choice is valid. He doesn't have evidence that it is. The GM who is making the decision therefore has more than adequate leeway to interpret against it, that's all. It's harder (though still totally possible) for the GM to reject a player proposal that's RAW.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 25 2012, 07:21 AM) *
TJ, I never understood why people say 'semantics' like it's dismissive. smile.gif That's the same as rejecting a proof by scoffing, 'That's just math!'. My point was that the player there has a *hint*, a tiny implication that their proposed choice is valid. He doesn't have evidence that it is. The GM who is making the decision therefore has more than adequate leeway to interpret against it, that's all. It's harder (though still totally possible) for the GM to reject a player proposal that's RAW.


Because by the Rules, ANY Bioware is okay to take as Transgenics. Your argument (I believe) is that that is broken and the GM should have say so. OF COURSE the GM should have Say so, says so right in the text (iirc). My point is that if you are using Animal Physiology to make your arguments that that is all that is allowed, you STILL have to allow the Synaptic Boosters 1, as there are animals with 2 IP in Nature, and after all, that is what Transgenics is all about. Taking natural animals and adding their genetics to your own to have a greater effect.

It was not a dismissal of what you were saying. It was a clarificatuion that though some things are allowed, there are others that should be disallowed on Principle. Synaptic Booster 3 should be flat-out disallowed on proinciple unless someone can show me a natural animal in the books that has 4 IP. And even still, I might STILL disallow it on principles of Balance. I have no issues with SB1 as a Genetic Transgenic Treatment. I DO have issues with SB3. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
My point is that *nothing* is okay to take as transgenic unless you can convince the GM; 'no' is the default. The whole transgenics section (animal, alien, etc.) is *free form*, which inherently is 'no until GM says yes'. It's not like an actual gear listing. The one-sentence line about biotech is buried in the gene section, and begins with 'Most…'; right there, that means we can't assume any given thing is available. It also refers to p61 in Augmentation, and Synaptic Boosters aren't in that section at all. smile.gif

So, there's a key difference between 'all transgenics require GM-approval' + 'most of the section beginning on p61 is available', and the position you gave before ('any animal trait is okay' + 'any bioware is okay'), that's all. This is all separate from the basic, overarching concerns of 'GM can fiat anything' and 'balance wins all fights'. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 25 2012, 09:25 AM) *
My point is that *nothing* is okay to take as transgenic unless you can convince the GM; 'no' is the default. The whole transgenics section (animal, alien, etc.) is *free form*, which inherently is 'no until GM says yes'. It's not like an actual gear listing. The one-sentence line about biotech is buried in the gene section, and begins with 'Most…'; right there, that means we can't assume any given thing is available. It also refers to p61 in Augmentation, and Synaptic Boosters aren't in that section at all. smile.gif

So, there's a key difference between 'all transgenics require GM-approval' + 'most of the section beginning on p61 is available', and the position you gave before ('any animal trait is okay' + 'any bioware is okay'), that's all. This is all separate from the basic, overarching concerns of 'GM can fiat anything' and 'balance wins all fights'. biggrin.gif


Understood, I now get where you are coming from... smile.gif wobble.gif smile.gif
KarmaInferno
Yerameyahu, I think the point is to give a specific reasoning for allowing SB1 but not SB2 or 3, beyond the GM saying, "Because I said so."

The extra IP that some animals have, that is a possible feature that Genetic heritage can replicate.

To represent this in game mechanics, allow SB1, since it does about the same thing.

It's not really SB1, it's enhanced animal reflexes, but use SB1 since it's the most convenient similar rule item.

There are no animals with 4 IPs, so there's no justification to have Genetic Heritage for 4 IPs, so no SB 2 or 3.




-k
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