It depends on the GM, I guess. Many of the SURGE negatives can be completely negated; only by going 'RAW says you are Distinctive, even if there's no logic' can they still get you. Be aware I'm arguing this is a bad thing.

[quote name='_Pax._' date='Jun 23 2012, 07:00 PM' post='1165252']
(part 2 of 2)

I just built a Face/Mage character for a PbP here on Dumpshock. He speaks 7 languages, including his Native English, at a root level of 3. Thus, Linguist was worth 12BP of Knowledge/Language skill points - a profit of 7BP. I can raise each 1 more point, to 4 - and get the full +2 bonus, speaking each as well as a full-on native speaker. Getting ranks 5 and 6 free is worth 11 Karma. Across six skills, that's 66 karma saved.

And I don't plan on stopping at 6+Native languages spoken, either. I'm pondering picking up the Linguistics adept power, too. Then, the cost of an effectively R6 "native" language will be only 9 karma each ... instead of 24.

Linguist has already paid for itself. By the time I'm at 10 non-Native languages spoken? It iwll have paid for itself a dozen times over, if not more.


I have found that when it comes to languages its even easier to get a payoff an adept with the Linguist power and the Linguist quality can learn a new language at 3 for no Karma

Escaped Clone ... suddenly looks more attractive.

The Linguist quality's boost to language skills is bunded by "skill/2, round down". So while the Adept pwoer does indeed give you a R1 language for free, you have to pay to advance to R2 to get +1 from the quality, and then advance to R4 to get the full +2.

Is the metagenic improvement taken as genetic heritage still considered the quality? If not, can you then take the quality as a surge for the same attribute? (I know I'm dealing with semantics and the answer is likely no, but figured I'd offer this bit of foolishness up)

Slight point. Having an effective 6 in a language skill is not the same as speaking it as well as a native speaker. You would still need to make a language skill test (Intuition) and meet the threshold (Basic Topic (1), Complex Topic (2), Intricate Topic (3), Obscure Topic (4)) for the type of conversation you're holding. You are still also susceptible to glitches and critical glitches which aren't present in your native language.

... but for the purposes of using Social Skills, it is the same as being a Native Speaker: your limit on social skills is 6 ... which you can't exceed without having Aptitude, anyway.

Your social skill dice are limited by language skill. Without aptitude, you social skill dice can go up to 9 (10 with it) if the bonus augments the social skill rather than gives a dice pool modifier. If you have a face adept with 6 Con in his social skills and Improved Ability 3 (Con) then he has 9 Con dice for his native language and 6 con dice for each language that has a rating of 6.

Other than Adept powers ... I know of nothing that directly adds to a social skill, rather than adding to the die pools. Which makes that concern something of an edge case, yes?

...

Besides, if you actually pay Karma for R6 language skills, the Linguist quality will give you an effective 8, anyway. So even then, the Quality is pretty darned useful still.

Well, just add learning stimulus nanites lvl 3 and learn all your languages for 1 karma each at lvl 6 ^^

Um ... I'd have to say that the minimum Karma cost to increase anything is 1 per rating increase, regardless of applicable discounts. So that'd cost 3 Karma (raising from 1 to 4 native), for an effective 6 ranks of the skill. Not quite as good as you suggest, but still a damned neat trick!!

It doesn't really matter what does something. What matters is how the rule is applied. Regardless, since it is not a native language you must still make the language check prior to conversing with the target and then you may have your skill dice capped because of your language skill. Neither of these constraints is applicable to a native language.

In some ways, it makes sense for 'Native' to be special… but there are plenty of ways that it doesn't make sense. Native (IRL) doesn't necessarily mean 'perfect', and there are levels of second-language attainment that might be described at least as 'native-like'. *shrug* I guess it's up the GM eyeballing the specific situation.

Restricted Gear for a Beta Grade MBW2 i think it was.
Combine with a 4/4 Group Contact for a Warez-Network and a Comlink maxed out for Searching stuff, and you can have every skillsoft in the game in 3 days in game time for about 10% of the list price, if i remember correctly . .
Who cares about linguistics and linguist if you can simply for free download warez language chips?

You can't start with Betaware, and even if you could, you couldn't afford MBW 2 at chargen.

But yes, Restricted Gear MBW2 Alpha and then some search time for skillsofts after chargen is a common trick.

Cough.
http://notalwaysright.com/adamant-if-a-bit-addled/21511

If you're thinking of languages skills by themselves, then yes you have a point. Now use them in the context of various topics. Let's I'm an English speaking particle physicist. I know some German. I may not know enough German to adequately talk with a German particle physicist because of the complexity of it. However, I wouldn't even be able to talk to the physicist about it without the Particle Physics knowledge skill. When you were taught the concept, you were taught it and its definitions in your native language. You weren't taught particle physics in German.

As another example...

One of the closest terms in English to the German word 'Schadenfreude' is 'morose delectation' or possibly 'gloat'.

Schadenfreude and Backpfeifengesicht are two of the best things in the german language.

A face that cries out for a fist to be put in it?

Trying to spell phonetically in English...
Bach fee fen gah seeked?

close, but no cookie.
phonetics are hard to do with written letters.
I actually think english does not have the sound pfei anywhere . . not sure though . .

and yes, basically the word means:"A Face in need of slapping"

Is phei is own sound? From what I was taught, and ei should be carry a similar sound to an English hard E.

The english E is more like I in german.
and no, pfei is not it's own sound technically, it's a combination of the pf and the ei sound.
and the closest english has to pf is ph and that simply won't cut it. and the closest you have to the ei sound is the sound i makes when you say it.

U cant use edge on a Chip either

Ummmm... Yes you can. Install a Skillwire Expert System. Bang, Edge Use for Skillsofts.

Furthermore: You don't need your points for skills.
So pump up your attributes. If the pool is big enough, the need for edge diminishes . .
And of course, TJ already mentioned the expert system. And then there are Chip-Options later on too . .

Actually you don't need skillwires and MbW for language skills. Language skills aren't activesofts they're knowsofts.

All you need at the minimum is a datajack to slot the chip. Or even trodenet and a commlink.

ah, right, i forgot about that @.@

I'm Afraid you are mistaken

The Linguist Quality Reads

Linguist
Cost: 5 BP
A character with this quality has a natural gift for learning
and understanding languages, grasping vocabulary and grammar
much more quickly than others would. This quality halves the
basic learning time for a language and modifies the rating of any
Language skill the character possesses by +2.

nowhere does it say Skill/2 round down

If you have a language you get it at +2 what you buy it at

It's a general rule for direct skill boosts.From this sentence alone, there's no explicit rounding, per se. If the base is 1, the modified skill can't exceed 1*1.5 (1.5). This effectively 'rounds down' to 1, because you can't have rating 1.5.

it would be in keeping with the attribute rules, which round down as well.

Odd, we've always played Linguistics not as an augmented skill value, but rather a +2 skill permanent increase. So you pay the karma to open a language at 1, and receive it at 3. Now to increase it you have to pay to take it to 4.

Perhaps we are doing it wrong, but the quality doesn't say anything about an augmented skill value so we assumed that it works the way I described. Oh well, not like languages make that big of a difference in most games.

-D

You definitely are doing it wrong, but that doesn't mean it's a problem at all. As you say, who cares? Still, for clarity:The quality in question specifically says 'modifies', and the rule gives a clear definition for 'base' as 'whatever skill you paid for'. Again, that's just RAW, not necessarily 'right' for your game.

Better in the short run (especially if you leave them at 3), but worse in the long run (if you want to get them to an effective 6).

Using your way, getting that 6 would cost 2(new), +5+6, or 13 Karma. Flipside, getting just a 3 costs only 2 karma.

RAW, getting to 6 would cost 2 (new), +2+3+4, or 11 Karma. Flipside, getting a 3 costs 2 (new) +2, or 4 Karma.

...

Teeny tiny differences.

Thanks guys.

The only down-side to the augmented skill value (as pointed out above) is that you need to buy up the skill to at least 2 in order to take advantage of Linguistics due to round down.

Of course I think in all the years I've played SR I've only seen Linguistics taken two or maybe three times.

-D

Please state me the page on where this is written, i could not find it in the SR4A rulebook, and the LS Nanites do not say anything about this.

Interestingly, all qualities that modify an active skill refer to this rule, while none of the knowledge/language skill enhancing qualities refer to it.

Don't be a twit, okay? I did say "I'd have to say", not "the rules say".

I would never, ever, ever allow someone to advance a skill, attribute, or anything that normally cost Karma, "for free".

TANSTAAFL

Getting an injection of R3 nanites should not let you jack every Knowledge and Language skill you have to 4, for 0 Karma. Indeed, I'd simply ban the LS nanites entirely, before allowing that to happen.

Setting a floor of 1 Karma, however, is the gentlest, most-permissive route open to me as a GM. And always remember: the GM is superior to the RAW. Every time, in every game.

Well, i would just enforce the rules for learning skills - you cannot learn sth in an instant, you need to spend time. It would cost 0 karma, but you could only learn 1 or 2 Knowledge skills/languages between the adventures, depending on downtime and other activities ^^

You contradict yourself. The rules say you can improve as many skills as you like, if they're (a) not new, and (b) you have the requisite Karma. (By 1 point each, unless downtime is significantlylong). So, 1 knowledge skill or 20, you can improve as many or as few as you like between adventures/runs provided you have enough Karma.

Pax, I believe he's correct on this one.


Lacking a nanohive, soft nanites degrade at 1 rating per week as I recall, so you could pay for rating[3] and raise a 2 to a 3 the first week, then a 1 to a 2 the second week, for 12k nuyen. That's just under 2.5BP at character creation, so a little less than 5 karma worth of nuyen, for 2 points of knowledge skills. Assuming he made both the rolls in 1 roll each.

Unless you can do multiple extended tests simultaneously, you cannot improve as many skills as you like.

Edit: Ninja'd -.-

Well, with the Linguistics adept power and the linguist quality, you can make 4 tests in a week (both halve the test interval). Heck, if you rush the job, you can make 8 rolls in a week.

Okay, my bad. I did miss that part.

Horribad Catalyst editing strikes again: turns out the rules for actual time spent learning weren't in the section labeled "Learning time" (which starts at the bottom of p269). Go figure.

Assuming you can 'rush the job' of learning a skill.

Lol. What happens if you critically glitch a roll to learn a skill? How stupid would it be to suffer real consequences after buying 12k of nanites to save karma on knowledge skills.

Glitch? You learned a bad habit, it takes X extra time to learn not to do Y.

Pax... I think you're worried about nothing. Really it's 15k worth of nanites PLUS a hive if you want to keep them going. (and a hive also includes an ongoing maintenance cost).

There's still a time limit on actually learning the skills.

Really... look at the other option, I drop 2500 on a rating 5 linguasoft right away! No time or training needed... only need a datajack by itself, or a trode net plus commlink.


So the guy wastes a week and raises 4 language skills from 1->2 for time (and cost of living) and no karma. He's still paying for it. (even at the rate I don't fully agree with of $2500/1karma he's paying out the nose for cheap knowledge/language skills).

But remember: the players are numerically superior to the GM. Every time, in every game.

Not true, some crazy people play one-on-one.

But for some crazy people, the RAW is superior to the GM.

Sure, if you play in a democracy and for many (usually narrative-oriented) RPGs that's just dandy, but for more GM-centred games like SR I think it a mistake. I see the GM as the host of the party - there's only one of him but he's responsible for running the show.