No, it is not. Orks are COREBOOK. They are neither optional nor exotic. They make up a big part of SR background.

See, I would not go that route. I would take a Prejudice Against Orks, and then roleplay that out. Makes for some good in-character drama. Could it end in one or the other dying? Most likely. But I would never disallow the Ork because the character hated Orks.

Not the same thing with Infected, though. The Ork hater is not going to become an Ork because of the Orks presence. It is QUITE possible for a character to become infected through association with an INFECTED character type, on the other hand. ESPECIALLY if you do not change the Ghoul Virus to Injection.

So why couldnt you roleplay that out with an infected character? I fail to see the difference.

Which book they appear in has no bearing on this dicussion.

Well, I disagree.
There is some general ground, every player has access to. If one player wants to restrict the access on this ground, he needs to give a reason.
But if you are talking about an optional rule in a supplement book, well it is an other issue.

It does if you actually read the whole quoted statement: optional, exotic, and (extremely) uncommon all matter.

So the entire point to your post was to say all of my analogies are wrong, the analogies that you created are somehow closer to what I had envisioned in my own head, and that my conclusions are wrong as well?

Not only are you way-off base, you're also an asshole.

no its a big freaking fallacious argument. And if you have to throw fallacious about rather than tacking the issue directly, we're no longer having a discourse. Youre just flinging poo.

I would posit that it certainly does, especially when said book introduces the character types as "options," says that "groups should consider the impact and ramifications they might have" on the game, suggests that groups should "carefully consider and discuss these following material before introducing it into play," tells GMs point-blank that they are "cautioned not to allow certain options into play," because "some of the character types may very well unbalance the game," warns that players and GMs should "read the rules carefully," because "Infected characters are very powerful and can be disruptive and unbalancing," and on and on and on.

In that character's case, the psionic/nosferatu/beastmaster combo is definitively weird and I have a hard time figuring out how that particular mix came to be. It feels sort of like a ribs-mango pizza, a bizarre mix of ingredients that definitively feels like they don't belong together.

It supposes the character was already awakened before getting infected, as it would be very, very odd (as in quantum-mechanics level probability) for someone to turn to the definitively oddball psionic 'tradition' upon turning into a nosferatu.

Along with all the relational problems of a nosferatu, that character doesn't sound as a character but rather like an aphazard mix of rare occurences. Something that's been cobbled together to get cool powers and bonuses without nary a thought about what it's going to mean in term of character.

I funny statement, considering that the premise behind any kind of point system is that if you paid enough points for it, its balanced.

As I said, if one was at our table, and I found out, he would be a Dead Infected. Case Closed. That is how the game world rolls in that regard.
The problem is that such a reaction tends to have OOC consequences. We avoid that whole pitfall by simply not allowing Infected at all.

Really? I guess we're just completely ignoring the infected-friendly governments/corporations at this point, yes?

The world is in something of a cultural swing towards accepting the infected, especially ghouls. They've been around for 20? years at this point, and people have had time to get used to the idea of them being around. That doesnt mean there arent bigoted people in the world, or even only a few. It just means that on the worst day, segregation was just abolished, and you are black.

In a perfect world, sure.

But as it is, it's made very clear to players and GMs alike that about half the stuff in Runner's Companion is absolutely optional, and should very much be discussed and agreed upon by any given game table before introducing elements of it to their game.

You can pretend it doesn't say that if you want to, I guess, but your stubborn refusal to acknowledge it detracts from your argument, not the position of those who are agreeing with the rulebook.

I do not get what you want from me?
Dissagreeing with you makes me an asshole and way-off base?

Yes, I am saying that they are wrong. Vulcans are part of the Federation, the first Race humans made contact with. Odo is part of the "species" the federation will be at war with most of the time in Deep space nine. They are neither exotic nor out of place.

So yes, your analogies are wrong and as a result of that your conclusions are wrong too.

And since I did not want to close on only saying you are wrong, I made suggestions of possible analogies which would fit the issue we are discussion.

If we would be talking about a group of vampire hunters, a vampire would not be off. (Since the advanture will deal with vampires anyway) (If we were looking at this, the odo analogy would totally fit)

I'm not pretending it doesnt say that at all, but dont the other splats say that as well? I cant recall specifically right now, but if they do then why is Runner's Companion being regarded as an exception? Basically, if i'm being forced to now play out of the corebook, why arent you? "you cannot play infected" holds the same bearing as being barred from any options presented in the other splats; therefor to have any reasonable discourse, we must assume that our discussion takes place in a world where these options are not barred.

@Starmage21
But yes, it hold true for everybody. The optional rules out of Augmentation need also to be discussed with your group.

And options that espacially state, that they might "break" the game should be considered carefully and probably houseruled to fit the playstyle of the group.

Exactly why which book the option appears in holds no bearing on the discussion. The entire discussion is in fact predicated on the allowance of the infected at the game table.

Except for the part of the discussion where people say "infected aren't allowed at my game table," and you shout those people down and call them assholes and idiots if they have that stance, you mean? Oh, and the part where you keep equating orks (a core rulebook choice, in no way listed or mentioned by the rules as being optional and controversial) to Infected (who GMs and players are repeatedly warned about), that part of the discussion, too?

No, I've never done that if you go back and read what I've posted.

I think you've lost track of the situation. If you go back and reread the original situation, where Tymeaus Jalynsfein talks about the reaction of his player-character, you'll discover that the analogy stands.

TJ said, both in-game and meta-game ways, that Infected aren't welcome at his game table. Part of his reasoning for making this statement is directly in-line with the repeated warnings about allowing Infected in a game, right there in the rulebook that tells you about Infected, when it explains that they should be carefully discussed and considered before being allowed to disrupt a game.

You replied with "At this point you might as well get up and leave the game table. Being inflexible to the desires of your fellow players puts you* well into the area of the asshole or dickhead of the group."

If it was not your intent to insist that someone has to let you play your Nosferatu in any game you want to play your Nosferatu or they're an asshole or a dickhead, then perhaps you need to be a little more clear. Because as it is, you're certainly coming off as someone who is eager to play his Nosferatu, and who will ignore or belittle anyone -- including the rulebook -- that tells him he cannot, regardless of the attitudes of everyone else at the game table.

,

And? The Infected are part of society, some less then others. Your analogy, 'corrections' (laughable as they may be) and thus conclusion, are all wrong. In the future, please refrain from misguided attempts to correct the posited notions of others when you've clearly got no idea what you're talking about.

And because pop culture has spoken, I'm automatically wrong. Pop culture can pretty much kiss my ass; being popular doesn't make it right. Being romanticized sure doesn't make something right. I can romanticize any number of vile things; doesn't make them right.

Vampires, especially in Shadowrun, are monsters, straight up, as they have been for most of their literary existence (and as they should be again). It's tragic, but it's also the way things are. Just because some bleeding hearts want to paint it differently doesn't change a thing.


You've got that right. I'm not trying to be popular anymore.

This almost made me fall off my chair with paroxysms of laughter. (Sorry; I just got to play that word in a game of Words with Friends for a bajillion points, and I'm still kind of jazzed about that, so it might pepper my speech for the rest of the day.)

You do know what my other gaming gig is, don't you? I keep a mostly-dead Star Trek gaming system alive in my copious unstructured free time. I can't say for certain, but I'm willing to bet I've been a Trekkie longer than you've been alive.

I've never had a problem with Spock's heritage, as a fan or a writer, and frankly, I think it's a specious argument since the two aren't really analogous at all. Spock doesn't cause death and/or suffering by virtue of his very existence. Vampires, et al, do.

Wouldn't be the first time I'd seen that happen.

Actually, you know what, this is exactly what I am saying: If someone sits down at a game table, and after having discussed with the GM what characters are and are not allowed, they have every right to play that character, and any player that refuses to cooperate by at least meeting the other player at some middle ground is simply being a douchebag. I would do exactly the same for anyone who had joined my gaming group, even if they played some archetype that I didnt like, so I expect the same of everyone else. We're playing a cooperative game after all, and it doesnt work if the players dont fucking cooperate.

I normally agree with your sentiment, but using the 'The book says it could be bad' argument just doesn't fly. By the book, summoning casters are some of the most egregiously overpowered points of the game, cost nowhere near the extra BP of an infected, and yet the book doesn't go out of its way to mention just how broken a game will be if you let the party wield a small army of force 6 spirits.

Quite frankly, the way the dev's weigh power seems to have no correlation with the way an actual SR game runs.

I'm getting tired of this, and you've been warned before. Keep it going and you'll have a few days off of DS to better refine your arguements.While you're at it, make your arguements about the discussion, not the person. And while I'm all for backing up someone's idea, stop name calling out of the sheer joy of slinging mud.

Here's the key part: "and after having discussed with the GM what characters are and are not allowed". The GM's job was to make sure that character fit in the group and game in the first place.

*winces*

While I'm here, I'd also like to say, if all that you have to say about the original poster's question is that nosferatu are unbalanced or the character is an issue because of 'X', please move on now. He asked for help with an issue. Going on over and over about how the character is a problem isn't what he's asking. He didn't tell you what kind of game he was in, he didn't tell you what the other players were. Help him fix the character up. If you'd like to discuss the problems beyond the rules mechanics of BP, do it in another thread.

Edit: This isn't directed at 'almost normal'. This is directed at another half a dozen posters.

So instead of TJ in particular, we're going with everyone that acts this way? If I'm infelxible on a particular issue at my table, especally as a GM, ten I'm an asshole?



This would be an example of what I was talking about. This discussion has gone a long ways from "Hey, I'm having a problem with this, what are some of the problems I may have with it?"

Something along the lines of "nosferatu are overpowered and overvalued" is fine. But "I don't allow this at my table, and I'd kill your character" is not helpful (loose quoting I know).

We've been seeing a lot of this sort of thing lately. If you don't have something to add to the thread that has to do with the topic and is helpful, don't add to it. If you want to debate a tangent, either wait until the original topic has been sufficiently addressed, or make your own threads. Don't be the guy that starts the derailing process. We're all getting tired of the train wreck that results.

I am... The character does not come form an Infected Friendly Government or Corp. He comes form normal humanity, who sees the Infected as a Plague to be eradicated. Why is that so hard to understand?

And no, the People are not accepting it... There are a few governments set up to cater to that particular idea. Big Difference.

Edit: Apologies Fistandantalus4.0... Just saw your warning. I will cease and desist.

Apologies for the lenght of my name. I've been "meaning to get around to..." changing it for a few years now. It's too damn long, and really obnoxious to keep typing out all the time.

To go back on topic and try to help out our beloved Krishach.



Wards. You have the ability to produce very high strength wards. Given that *someone* is going to try to find you eventually, it's handy to ward your place of residence, if only to prolong spirit search powers.

If your GM is going to allow you to use Relieve Allergy against daylight, he's probably infected friendly. See if he'll let you use an Adept's quick healing powers to augment your regeneration ability.

Travel is going to be a pain in the ass. You can't rely on public and mass-transport safely. Look into alternative means. The levitate spell at low force and a squirrel suit with the parachuting skill can be a very fun and quick method of travel.

500BP tends to be on the high end scale of campaigns. See about 'converting' a few useful NPCs and making them like-minded contacts. Having your own personal thrall could add entertainment to the game.

Nothing wrong with the name... Has a certain amount of nostalgia attached to it, in fact.

Glad it's still appreciated. Those were the first books that actually got me interested in reading.

And here I go with my own tangenting...

Not my First Books, to be sure, but definitley very enjoyable...
I now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

Actually, almost normal is correct on this. With a temporary magic boost from Essence Drain, you can put up wards far stronger than would normally be within your capabilities. Huh. I was unaware of this little perk, thanks almost normal. *adds mental note in some deep corner of my brain*

Problems to prevent for nosferatus in general: letting your status as an Infected slip to the rest of your team will be opening up a can of wyrms that, while possible to deal with, might be better left closed. Nosferatus canonically tend to be decently skilled with disguises, so I would put some points into Disguise and also put a bit of PP into Facial Sculpt and other related adept powers. Nosferatus have a 15,000 bounty on their heads in the UCAS, so you'll want to do your best to eliminate the temptation of turning you in from your teammates' minds. You can either do that the way I do, by keeping your PC's infection a secret from as many people as possible (this gets easier if you can find at least one non-bigoted ally on your team), or the way Neraph does, by being very and irreplaceably good at your character's role.

Also blackberry cats are amazing. Except they can do the same thing you can (influence people's minds innately). Be aware of that.

Tbh, I do feel that the psionic tradition part feels a bit jumbled together with the rest of the concept and doesn't jive very well with nosferatus thematically or canonically. With 500 BP, it should be possible to have a nosferatu mystic adept beastmaster character who is also a hermetic, like most other nosferatus. I don't think you have to worry about having high drain stats, though. I would put more of an emphasis on the adept side than on the magician side, and bust out the powercasting only after you've drained some essence and boosted your Magic for a day/night.


(also that squirrel suit idea is actually kind of cool)

Just talk to your GM. After 8 hours I believe, your magic starts dropping back to nominal values. It's up to him whether you can feed during the creation of the ward, or if not, if the maximum value of the ward is calculated at the start of the creation, or it's end.

(The ward taking force X hours to create, and all that.)

I think it's 12 hours per boost, which leaves plenty of time for creating a very potent ward (as long as you have some Nuke-It Burgers or something else to eat while you're working on it).

You were right, 12 hours.

One more thing Krishach might want to have clarified is when exactly essence loss will take place.



Arguments can be made for the payment to take place at either end. If it takes place when you decide to channel the essence into magic, well... You've got the ability to pump your magic into the triple digits given the proper preparations and uninterrupted time to feast. Now, I don't reccomend doing this before every run, but if you're on the Titanic and find yourself surrounded by frightened passengers, you might just be able to pull off a levitation spell to save the day. (And probably die from the resulting drain, but hey, can't win em all, and maybe that act saves your soul.)

Good to see after the person with the golden text put their foot down, this topic is back to the actual topic...and not some flame fest about not liking nosferatu. All arguments aside, the rules are there. Plain and simple. Don't like it, don't play. If you're the GM, you have the say either way on what's allowed. Not the players. The GM. It's really as simple as that.

Wards are a good thing to keep in mind when playing anything with a manipulatable Essence, but they are immobile. The runs you and your buddies will be in won't be done at your house...at least I hope not. That'd get boring quick. My previous post should answer a number of your questions about how to be an effective part of the group, and combine both the information about wards and my previous post and you'll have the enemies running for the wyverns dens rather than face you themselves.

It's a solid character concept. Keep at it until you're happy with the results. Oh, and happy hunting.

One point to keep in mind (just as with any higly unusual / very high abilities characters) is that after a few games the GM may toss the towel and ask you to make another character because it's special abilities throw things out of balance and he can't challenge your character without making the rest of the party irrelevant (or dead).

Sort of happened to me (as a GM) once in a Stormbringer game. The party's sorcerer started playing with his newfound capacity to add immunities to armors - affter a single game we concluded 'nope, that's no fun to play being mr invulenrable to about everything, let's curb that down'.

@almost normal

And wrong again. Alright, one last try to teach you how to make an analogy.
First: You have to transfer the whole picture.
The Federation is only one territory in the whole StarTrek Universe. They are not even the most powerful Faction.
As a matter of fact there are several societys in SR. (Ares and every other AAA Crop, the different nations, some metaplanes )

This begs the question: What would the Federation be?
First idea would be the society in Seattle, since this is the basis of Shadowrun or maybe the Society in the UCAS. Or in Ares or maybe Sarder Krupp.
But you allready see, it is not really fitting. Because StarTrek focus only on the Federation or in other words the federation is the basis.

Now what is the basis in the SR? Right, it is the core book. You can play in Washington, you may play in Paris or in whatever city you would like. But you have to play with the core book. Like in StarTrek you have always the Federation on board.

So all the races part of the federation would be the playable races of the core books. There is no question about them, they fit anytime and everywhere. And if I for example play a run in Japan an oni would be fitting. As is for example Seven of Nine is fitting in Voyager. But it would not really fit in playing in the middle of Germany. Here an oger would be fitting. While those options would not fit in general in an other setting, you would just need to explain why they are there now. If you play in some regions in France/England/Germany even a pixie is possible and easy to explain.

The more "excotic" the race, the more explaining would be needed and the more likely the rest of the group won't go with it.

And thats how you build an analogy. Not like: I want to be right, but I do not have any argument. Lets use an analogy and just make things the same which aren't in order to show, that I am right. (Yes, I get it. Thats how most people use analogies.)

@Topic
Talk to the GM. Several of the things I have read here are really big red making most GMs sutting you down cold.
(Like Regeneration+quickhealing)
Before trying to abuse everything in the system talk to GM about the "every day stuff".
How do you handle your essence loss? How do you handle the need for blood? How do you handle your appearance? Whats able to identify you as a Nosferatu and what would be the security response?
If you run in europe or even near Essen, the big L would probably personally send some of his spirits. (The GM would be well in his options, considering the fluff)

C'mon, Irion. Fisty asked us to drop it. If I were you, I'd edit out the first 4/5ths of that post, and just leave that last bit (which is the part you actually admit is on-topic).

It's okay Critias, his entire post is a failed attempt to rustle my jimmies. Because, you know, nothing makes
like communicating with your gm.

Don't mind me, I just read the thread title as "Noseratu Breast Handler" and had to see that build.

Let's talk about trolling, ...
....
That there over use of elipses is me editing myself out of about a paragraph of a rant that I would really like to rant but I thought the better of. It probably would have been better if you'd done the same.

Apparently with some people you have to talk a little longer to get the point across. Stop the damn flaming.
Irion has had his posting ability put on hold for two days. When we say stop, stop.

Heh... Yeah, that is also what I saw originally... Imagine my disappointment upon opening the Topic.

I usually try to fix spelling and typing errors like that in the title when I see them. It's hard, as I'm so prone to them myself.

...
Prone to the errors that is , not ... the other thing. I'm going now.