You know what the difference between Dietary Requirement and Essence Loss is, right? The Special Infected (title I give to all Infected with Essence Drain - a shout-out to L4D) do not require Essence on a weekly basis, and I've already gone over a number of ways to take care of that issue fairly easily. Read the Dresden Files, especially when Thomas opens a hair salon.

EDIT: Attempted to soften the blow.

In other news:

I've always envisioned Essence Drain to work like Essentia from The Other Game - you lock those points in and cannot access them until the timer runs out, after which half are lost.

EDIT 2:
Also, check out this idea for a faster Beast Master: take the concepts from my Ally Spirit Thread (especially the Calling Rules) and apply them to animals. Here's a couple examples:
Spirit Dog

Fire Dog

Thomas' feeding style is not the same as it is for Nosferatu and Vampires in Shadowrun.

It is for Essence, which was my point. Not only that, there are other ways for blood, which were mentioned upthread.

No, its not.

Thomas' victims do not participate Willingly, they participate unknowingly (BIG DIFFERENCE). You cannot do that in Shadowrun. You must either be willing (which means you are explaining exactly what you are doing to the victim... bet you don't do that one) or restrained. Thomas' victims do not know what is happening to them. Nor does it have a detrimental effect on his victims like Essence Loss does in Shadowrun.

The Blood restriction is also a component, and yes, you MAY handwaive it away by figuring into the Lifestyle. IF we allowed Infected in our game, we would not allow it to be that easy. It is a drawback (and a significant one at that) for a reason. It should not be simply handwaived away. Doing so minimizes the monstrousness of whay it is that they are. It is not the same as going to McHughs for a Burger, after all...

...

/facepalm.

Influence and Compulsion are powerful weapons at the disposal of a nosferatu. They make you willing. So does lying about something; for example: "Come over to my place for a fun-sexy time!" Then, when they come over expecting sex, you give them that and take a point of Essence also. You do remember that "[t]he psychic stimulus of the act of draining has a side effect of creating ecstasy in the victim," (SR4A, page 294, Essence Drain, fifth paragraph, first sentence) right?

So yes, the Thomas example still does hold water in that if they think they are coming for (in this case) a haircut, they are willingly submitting to whatever happens in that chair. The example gets stronger when you start doing other things, like be a BDSM-for-hire (draining from sexual pleasure/pain/terror) or things of the like.

As for the blood - it'd be easy to arrange (Influence and Compulsion, remember?) a blood-drive in poor-er neighborhoods and have the Nosferatu masquerade as a doctor who takes the shipments, or getting into an arrangement with a shady clinic for blood, both of which are simply the RP reasonings behind the 30% increased Lifestyle cost. Not to mention Nutrition.

/Facepalm...

"Fun Sexy Time" is not the same as "Feed me a portion of your Soul" and you know it. If you are using Compulsion or Influence, they are not willing. They are being forced, and that does not fly, becasue it DOES NOT MAKE THEM WILLING. It Forces a condition upon them, and removes choice. In what world does that make them willing? And yes, I do know the side effect. Regardless, to actually use the Essence Drain Ability, your Victim must either be willing (Forced acceptance is not Willingness) or they must be restrained. Your course of action counts as restraint, but it is NOT the same as the way that Thomas (or White Court Vampires in general) feed, as you claimed. Restraint is exactly that, Forced Compliance. Better kill the victim at that point, becasue even with the Resultant addiction (Mild Remember) it is likely they are going to the Authorities becasue there is an Infected Predator on the loose...

And no, in your example, they are not willingly accepting of anything that happens in the chair. That is just ludicrous...

Yes, I understand the Blood Arguments, and think they are very cheesy. Which is why I would never allow such actions in my game, assuming we allowed Infected at all, which We do not. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Not at our table...

You guys can both stop now, you know. Before they lock the thread.

Yes please.

I did not read it that way at first, but now that you've brought it up I can't STOP reading it that way. Thanks a lot....

Perhaps that's why they keep going 'round and round about "sexy-time".

Seriously guys, please don't dig yourselves into another pointless circular arguement.

You're a pointless circular argument!

I want to argue around your circles!

Actually, the Psionic tradition does not entirely support number tweaking. As has been suggested, charisma synergizes better with nosferatu critter powers. A shaman would be better for such things.

Psionics was picked, because I wanted a character from NAN who eschews shamanic ways as religious nonsense. A college educated person who does not believe in the "old ways," and instead practices magic as an application of force that is naturally occurring and malleable. Hermetic traditions rely on mystic formula, and I believe those are just beliefs reinforcing beliefs. Those who read Dresden Files will know this particular standpoint: it works only because you believe in it. I believe it is a natural force no more mystic than gravity.

The animal handler kick was a spin-off after a "discussion" (more of an argument) as to whether or not someone who denounces the "old ways" would give a crap about the state of the world. So, the character became a scientific environmentalist type, with a focus on animal treatment, but not a straight tree-hugger. Animal treatment in this case does NOT mean "nature takes its course." Well cared for is well cared for. In short, he believes in free-range farm animals, not in vegan.

The party, per say, is never a static unit. Shadowrun is our mixed-attendance game as much as a mainstay, and is the game of choice when we are missing people. This can mean only 2 or 3 shadowrunners.

And the final question, this would be a "suffering soul," who searches for the non-existent cure for vampirism, and hides what he is as much as he can.

I always thought the SR hermetics were scientific (MIT&M), while psionics was fringey new age crystal stuff.

This is much more in keeping with SR canon regarding what nosferatus are like in terms of outlook and personality than what I thought from your original post, and I am glad to see that you are making this character with real depth. My concerns are eased now.

I'm now wondering whether you intend on training and using paranimals or whether you will be mainly using mundane critters for the roles you'll be filling on the team (my guess is infiltration/espionage with some CQC?). I can give you advice for either route, but it would be helpful to know which one you are going with.

Also, do you want your PC to follow an Adept Way?

my apologies, you did indeed ask about the paracritters earlier, and I forgot in my post.

This would be primarily a paracritter trainer/handler, and I've started with several Fenrir Wolves, and am thinking about a Merlin Hawk (the hawk can summon manifesting spirits, and psionics do possession, best of both!).

In terms of supporting them, our group exercises the custom lifestyle rules, so, Rural Home, No Neighbors, Animal Lover 3, and Reinforced Housing II should take care of most special needs for paracritters. Psionics using possession grants access to spirits with animal control who can also possess said critter, making it possible to contain failed training rolls. I've also taken spells such as Control Pack (alleviate allergy for Nosferatu is also Win).

I've arranged with the GM as to a location, which is atm restricted to Seattle and surrounding area. I've opted to be in the outer sticks of Seattle, probably in Snohomish, where paracritter trainers exist already, and since I can then do personally sponsored raids into the Coliseum.

I also spent points for a contact through NAN, which I understand is more famed for dealing in paracritters as a nation, to see about training for a fee, selling, or acquiring new animals. Remember, I care about their treatment, but not their subjugation. A military paracritter, properly cared for in all respects, is no different than the little 3 pack of wolves I keep myself.

Actually they seem close in context, with a distinct difference: Hermetic magicians believe that formula, symbols, rituals, etc, are empirically discovered ways of manipulating the force known as Magic.

Psionics and crystals falls squarely in D&D, if memory serves.

Psionics believe that formula, symbols, rituals, etc, are all crap. The only thing that matters is the will to shape magic. Every other method is delusional; people following formulas because they believe it to be so, and it is their belief in such things that restrict them. It is a possession based tradition, with Intuition as the supplemental stat. Since Intuition is the primary stat for animal training and handling, that did indeed work well for this concept.


This also seemed in keeping with the general superiority that seems to possess most Nosferatu as well.

The caveat here is that the psionicist think that their own will and mindpower is producing the effects directly, magic being an expression of said powers. A marginal branch of chaos magic that considers you will and mind are the only required tools to affect magic (which in turn affects the wrold to create the deisred effects) seems more in line with the charcter's view.

The first is more in line for mine in any case, though I must admit dancing back and forth between them during char gen.

I have not yet taken a Way (had other qualities I felt I needed more) though Likely this would be Magicians Way. Sadly, due to the Totem Way all but requiring a Mentor Spirit, and psionics not taking one, I am not sure what subcatagory would be best for discounts. Warrior is one that seems to have discounts on some of the most expensive powers, when taken to their fill.

Isn't it MIT&T? As in Thaumaturgy?

It is... Good catch...

Seriously? Weird, I've thought that for like 15 years.

It was MIT&M for a while, since the very beginning (SR1 corebook, p 16). Changing it to MIT&T was a retcon that occurred...I don't know, exactly. I'm not sure when Texas A&M became Texas A&M&M, either, but it wasn't the latter in the original corebook.

Any beasthandler pitfalls as well?

Don't buy the animals. They are expensive and die easily. Just get them ingame via your skills.

perhaps, but no warforms that way

Be wary of what cirtters you pick - most combat-worthy ones aregoing to raise quite a few eyebrows in an urban setting, if they're even legal to begin with.

Give some thought to how you're going to keep them housed and fed when you're away or during transports - unlike a drone, you can't power them down and store in the back of van for a few days.

My 2 €cents.

I like the fact that some ghouls could be intelligent and have a chance of redemption. It is even canon as Big D will's clearly show he share this point of view about them. I dont remember he offering such a nice reward for a way to synthetise Essence... In my view of the Shade of Grey that SR is, it's a powerfull storytelling artefact.

Concerning Nostefaru and other Essence-drinker as a PC that is a bit different, thoses guys are the impersonation of the Bad Guy™. They are the lone and evil foe by wich all evil is measured. But even then Canon told us there is more to this.



Concerning having a Nosferatu in a player team I think it wont work. Either your shadowrunning group have some ethics and moral common ground that will make cooperation with such a creature unwantable, either they lack moral and are only concerned with profit and selfdevelopement and they wont tolerate the danger of working with something that could eat you without remorse nor wont they pass on the bounty.

"Hey guys I am a Infected and contagious creature that feed on people just like you just to survive and will work closely with you for the next few days."
"Oh, we dont know you and you look really dangerous, but that is ok because we are just amoral bastard driven only by profit."
"Well, good. Oh, did I mention that I have a very large bounty on my head that could be collected on several official agency for a lot of buck and brownies points ?"
"no big deal, buddy. As we said we are just greedy amoral bastard that do anything just for some credsticks...".

To echo the people above, though; animals really do get expensive pretty fast. Did you look over the Calling stuff I linked earlier? It helps significantly with their survivability and usefulness.

Isnt there an adept power that lets you attune to animals or some such?

Street Magic, page 53. It's interesting, but not very good in my opinion. It lets you use the animal's senses, but you get no control, it's very close range, and the animal can be used as a Ritual Link against you.

To be fair, you could take the Infertile Infected negative quality so you aren't able to spread the infection.

Like the population at large is going to listen to the Infected claiming he is infertile and oh so safe to be around. "Shoot him in the head twice, it's the only way to be sure" is likely to be a very common response to that conversation/situation.

Which is why the Infected always leads with mind-controlling options instead, such as Influence and Compulsion. You simply Influence them that they are perfectly fine with you for no reason, and that (if need be) you aren't Infected - you just like drinking soy-smoothies very warm.

If that fails, make them think that it's a good idea to swallow a primed micro-grenade.

And while you concentrate on one of them, the others are turning you into a puree of carnage...

while I understand the issue, I am getting a lot more comments on how you just shouldn't play Nosferatu than anything on how to get away with it. How our team deals with it, or how I play it, is roleplaying decisions, and it's my teams decision IF they find out. Realistically, no one is going to know what your team will think until the cat is out of the bag, regardless, and assumptions of my own group help me not. Since it is not being forbidden, please stick to helpful, useful comments, or at least something that HASN'T been said before, rather than another page of the infected-hating.

Thank you, dear admin. For the record, while it is not the business of the general populace, I have talked with my GM. GM approval is required for all characters in any case. I have 3 runners I play regularly, and if the GM rules this unbalancing, then so be it. Group > player.

I still am trying to get that all working in my head. It would require the Ally Spirit though, would it not? At this point, I'm well out of positive quality space, and getting that in game, while not karma expensive per se, is retardedly hard from a roleplaying perspective.

One big caveat I can see with a Nosferatu is well just what makes them powerful in the first place ; their ability to influence minds and create willing slaves through addiction. Most shadowrunners take a very, very dim view at having that sort of tricks pulled on them. Which means that using those abilities to get along is a double edged sword. the second they figure out you did and if they get any measure of free will, they'll plan on recovering their freedom and going for revenge, unles you've been very light-handed.

Some might even go for preemptive action if they figure there's a mindbender trailing along, out of a 'better safe than sorry and cash in the bounty while you're at it' approach.

So defintively make sure with the players that their characters are going to be at least somewhat OK with the notion beforehand.

Oh and one important safety point : with the HMVV having heavily edited your genome when you turned into a Nosferatu, be very careful around anything that means a DNA scan. The HMVV gene sequences are likely to raise all sort of red flags if your DNA gets any sort of close look.

You may get away with being identified as a vampire if you're filthy rich and/or famous, but if you're an SINless, the law will have no qualms at quietly snuffing your light. Or worse you might get a brand new identity as 'subject number NNN' in a dark corner of a corporate lab.

See previous post on custom lifestyle additions.

drat, I've gotten hit with double-post twice now. is there any way to delete a double then?


Again, please, the players and GM are my responsibility as a player, and have nothing to do with the books, or this thread.

DNA scanners was something I hadn't considered. It wouldn't hurt then to reproduce Gattaca and have some DNA linked to my fake SIN handy, but I'd prefer to avoid that all together. I intend on keeping this a secret as long as possible, with Masking being my first karma step.

Regular mages are far scarier "mind-benders" as far as the nosferatu is concerned.

But not just DNA scans will reveal you. 1 hit on the assensing test shows you as infected.

See "masking" comment above. I'm not aware of another way to hide from assensing other than masking.

Merlin Hawk is a good move. Anything avian is a good thing to have, IMHO - furthermore, having at least one mundane bird in your PC's care would allow you to bond with it through Attunement(Animal)* and use it as an eye in the sky using Sense Link. I would also use your Influence and Compulsion powers to acquire a Bandit in-game, to help with breaking into buildings and so on.

Also, figure out with your GM whether he/she considers HMHVV to require 1 hit, 3 hits, or 5 hits to notice on an assensing test, since it depends on GM interpretation. A sustaining focus with the Illusion spell False Impression/Manascape will allow you to conceal your aura as well - it just won't be as discrete to anyone able to assense you.

*you can turn it into a warform/biodrone as well to reduce the Karma cost to Attune to it!

Depending on exactly what you're using your critters for, some harmlees pets may be useful - a cat, a poodle or the like. Preferably in a few declinations ranging from 'stray mutt' to 'pedigreed piece of social swag' to match the setting you're going to operate in. Combat wise they're utterly worthless (or not, dump a big neough spirit in and your might get the Pooddle of Caer Bannog) but for scouting, distraction or picking scents they can get handy.

Notea bout my previous post - I mostly reacted to the 'bend the character's mind until they're perfectly fine with working along with a Nosferatu' suggestion - which in my opinion is a very bad suggestion. Many players will react badly to it. And even if a mage may have more pull in the mind-bending department, they're still meathumans. According to whta fluff there is about them, the Nosfeeratu not only can warp minds, most of them seems to amke an extensive use of their tricks. In common perception am mage can bend your mind in a bretzel a Nosferatu will.

In regard to animals that can actually fight, but which are available to starting characters, I didn't see anything that worked out better than the Fenrir Wolves. They are big, soak a fair bit of damage (more so if armored), are a fair bit stealthy, and can counterspell. The Advanced Pack rules would allow 3 or more the bonuses of a Tacnet, which in a group, can wield decent hit-and-run damage. Warformed, with a 50% bonus to those stats, they'd hit even harder. But no, they are not subtle, and quite expensive. Breeding should be fun.

Long term, I had my hopes on Griffins.

Either way, it requires a big car. I have a GAZ P-179, but need to upgrade once I get some money.

I like the mundane angle, and I certainly appreciate a spirit boosting it in a pinch. However, couldn't you receive info from the spirit in any case, if possessing? Would you need to attune them? And Animal stats by spirit can only amp to it's augmented maximum, if memory serves. What about taking Eyes of the Pack instead?

Can Extended Masking cover such a spell if going through a sustaining focus?

I could see an argument being made that a spell being sustained by a sustaining focus isn't covered by Extended Masking.

"This technique allows the initiate to extend her Masking metamagic to encompass her foci and any spells she may have quickened, anchored, or may be sustaining."

Since the mage isn't sustaining the spell (the focus is), the language here is unclear.

But I think that argument would be crap, pedantic language parsing when the meaning of Extended Masking seems clear - mask spells and foci on your person up to your Initiate grade.

Masking is not a sure fire protection, either, since it is a contested roll, winner takes all...

"Foci" covers Sustaining Foci last I checked.
However, Extended Masking does have limits, so...

Hehe - yeah, I realize Sustaining Foci are "foci"

Just thought that there could be some (misguided) room for interpretation - if the sustaining foci is sustaining the spell (Invis, Inc Ref, Inc Att, etc), then Extended Masking can mask the foci, but what about the active spell itself...

Again, I'm not saying I would agree with this interpretation, only that I see it as a possibility, however wrong I feel it to be...

Not since the Calling Rules came out in Running Wild, page 174-175. I also mention them in my Ally Spirit thread.

EDIT:

You can also start with a 5 BP Spirit Pact for Aura Masking.


Depends on the group. It could simply be to force group cohesion, which is actually beneficial to the group. "Yeah, I hate them blood-suckers. Oh Jim? Jim's good people. We don't talk bad 'bout Jim. But all other blood-suckers. Yeah, I hate them."



Technically correct, however there are no augmented maximums noted for animals. We don't know the maximum value for animal's stats, so we can't derive their augmented maxes.