Full Version: "Special Player Characters"
And that's the only possible solution to the FSPC rules (house rewrite), because it's clear that what got published is not what anyone wanted and is not functional.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 28 2012, 03:14 PM) 
And that's the only possible solution to the FSPC rules (house rewrite), because it's clear that what got published is not what anyone wanted and is not functional.
Except that no, it's not clear, because several people who play FSPC's (including pbangarth and... Starmage, I think?) have said on these boards again and again that free spirits ARE functional as characters. I think they've said that at least a dozen times in the last two years whenever this topic has come up. It's a matter of playing to their strengths and not trying to play them as something they're not (like well-built magicians or street samurai).
They're wrong. 
Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.
If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'. If I made an ice cream machine that turned out to only make slushies, it's not a functional ice cream machine.
Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'. If I made an ice cream machine that turned out to only make slushies, it's not a functional ice cream machine.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 28 2012, 05:13 PM)
They're wrong. Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.
If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'.
Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'.
Prove it, then.
Show me your sources to back up your assertion that they are "nutty and gimmick-powered." Not everyone who plays a functional FSPC does so by abusing spirit pacts to get massive Karma income. 
That wasn't what I was talking about. I didn't say 'overpowered'. If anything, they're underpowered. My point is that the resulting FSPCs are slushies, not ice cream.
To be fair most rules in SR are gelato (CanRay makes frozen yogurt).
I'm a custard fan, myself. 
You have to have the egg in there.
You have to have the egg in there.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 28 2012, 04:13 PM)
They're wrong. Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.
If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'. If I made an ice cream machine that turned out to only make slushies, it's not a functional ice cream machine.
Seriously though, I've seen those builds. They're nutty and gimmick-powered, produced by unintended interactions of rules that (according to the reports) were basically published by accident. I think literally anything is 'playable' or 'viable'. Drakes are plenty playable. Quadriplegics are playable. Etc.If something 'playable' (whatever that means) is able to be created by some interpretation of the printed rules, that's not the same as 'the FSPC rules are functional'. If I made an ice cream machine that turned out to only make slushies, it's not a functional ice cream machine.
I don't know about that Yerameyahu. I have an FSPC, and he is very playable. BUT, he really does have to play to his strengths. *shrug*
And mine is pretty vanilla, and follows fairly basic builds (So Nothing too exotic). Stats are pretty low (2's mostly, with a 3 Charisma and a 5 Willpower) for the most part. But Force and Edge are pretty good at 6 and 5 respectively, If I remember correctly. Has 10 Spells and only 4 actual skills (Influence Group at 1, and Assensing, Counterspelling and Spellcasting at 4, 5, 5 Respectively). Lacks a LOT of skills at start, but they can always be purchased in play. *shrug*
See, I would consider a character with *4* skills to be 'not what's supposed to happen', yes. Those stats are also notable, but whatever. Again, I said nothing about 'playable'.
Those stats are also notable, but whatever. Again, I said nothing about 'playable'.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 28 2012, 07:58 PM)
See, I would consider a character with *4* skills to be 'not what's supposed to happen', yes. Those stats are also notable, but whatever. Again, I said nothing about 'playable'.
Those stats are also notable, but whatever. Again, I said nothing about 'playable'.Well, how many Real World Skills do you expect a Spirit to possess (he has 5 knowledge skills as well, all at 2, and 2 languages)? I mean, really. Could he have had more? Sure, but it did not make any sense for him to have a lot of Physical Skills. For me, it is a chance to play a character that is new to the world. Sees everything through other peoples eyes as he learns about the greater world around him. *shrug*
While your example is not the same as some of the others I've seen, it still simply seems to me that you 'managed to get something out of the rules', instead of having rules that produce normal, flexible results. This is not a question of "not trying to play them as something they're not"; we know that the printed rules are not what anyone intended, so defining whatever comes out of them as 'just how they're supposed to be' is wrong.
'Everything minimal except maxed Force, Edge, and Spellcasting' *is* gimmicky (note, again, that I'm not saying 'overpowered' or 'unplayable', etc.). You can fluff it, but that's all it is. For example, I'd might well expect a spirit to have well-developed Influence skills across the board. That's not the same as not knowing how to Parachute. Anyway: if the normal chargen rules for mages were such that they required a build like that, we'd say they're bad rules. We wouldn't (okay, most of us wouldn't) say that 'that's just how mages are'.
'Everything minimal except maxed Force, Edge, and Spellcasting' *is* gimmicky (note, again, that I'm not saying 'overpowered' or 'unplayable', etc.). You can fluff it, but that's all it is. For example, I'd might well expect a spirit to have well-developed Influence skills across the board. That's not the same as not knowing how to Parachute.
Anyway: if the normal chargen rules for mages were such that they required a build like that, we'd say they're bad rules. We wouldn't (okay, most of us wouldn't) say that 'that's just how mages are'.
When you look at the number of Skills or spells a FSPC has, don't ignore the Spirit Powers that come with Edge points. The trio of Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form are my favourites. They enhance functions like infiltration (both immediate and long-term), data gathering, surprise, defense, toolkit substitution... lots of things. Other suits of powers focus talent in different directions. It is not a gimmick to maximize the attributes of a PC that are the most defining aspects of its nature... Force and Edge. If that is a gimmick, then maximizing Agility and Reaction for a street sam is too.
A FSPC has the ability to do the nearest thing to teleportation that Shadowrun gives. It has armour built in. It is a multifaceted support unit for the rest of the team through its powers and through the ability to perform most of the aid functions of a bound spirit for any PC magician.
At home I have played a 750 karma FSPC for quite a while now, and she has no trouble pulling her share of the load for the team. None of the other players find her a weak link. The same is true for a recently started 1125 karma FSPC in a higher power game we play here at home. Yes, they have weaknesses. Show me a character that doesn't.
A FSPC has the ability to do the nearest thing to teleportation that Shadowrun gives. It has armour built in. It is a multifaceted support unit for the rest of the team through its powers and through the ability to perform most of the aid functions of a bound spirit for any PC magician.
At home I have played a 750 karma FSPC for quite a while now, and she has no trouble pulling her share of the load for the team. None of the other players find her a weak link. The same is true for a recently started 1125 karma FSPC in a higher power game we play here at home. Yes, they have weaknesses. Show me a character that doesn't.
Again, I'm not saying they don't have cool (unique) tricks, that they're necessarily over- or underpowered, unplayable, failing to pull their share, etc. I dunno why people keep telling me about that stuff.
But Aura Masking + Realistic Form + Mutable Form *is* a huge gimmick. Teleportation is not an example of a non-gimmick, however nifty. And no, TJ's example of 'nothing but Force, Edge, and Spellcasting' is not comparable to a street sam build (not an acceptable one, anyway). I'm not picking on the FS here; there are tons of gimmick builds out there (say, throwing master adept, just to pick one at random).
If you're defining the output of the current, somehow-interpreted FSPC rules as 'just how they're supposed to be', then nothing I can say will matter. But I'm not satisfied with those rules until they can produce a range and variety like that of (for example) mage characters that the normal rules can (because obviously they're all magicians at minimum). I don't think the current rules can do this. I think they unnecessarily (and accidentally) constrain the player to a very few setups that work *despite* the rules being the result of crossed purposes between the writers. *shrug*
But Aura Masking + Realistic Form + Mutable Form *is* a huge gimmick. Teleportation is not an example of a non-gimmick, however nifty. And no, TJ's example of 'nothing but Force, Edge, and Spellcasting' is not comparable to a street sam build (not an acceptable one, anyway). I'm not picking on the FS here; there are tons of gimmick builds out there (say, throwing master adept, just to pick one at random).
If you're defining the output of the current, somehow-interpreted FSPC rules as 'just how they're supposed to be', then nothing I can say will matter.
But I'm not satisfied with those rules until they can produce a range and variety like that of (for example) mage characters that the normal rules can (because obviously they're all magicians at minimum). I don't think the current rules can do this. I think they unnecessarily (and accidentally) constrain the player to a very few setups that work *despite* the rules being the result of crossed purposes between the writers. *shrug*
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2012, 02:38 PM)
If you're defining the output of the current, somehow-interpreted FSPC rules as 'just how they're supposed to be', then nothing I can say will matter. But I'm not satisfied with those rules until they can produce a range and variety like that of (for example) mage characters that the normal rules can (because obviously they're all magicians at minimum). I don't think the current rules can do this. I think they unnecessarily (and accidentally) constrain the player to a very few setups that work *despite* the rules being the result of crossed purposes between the writers. *shrug*
But I'm not satisfied with those rules until they can produce a range and variety like that of (for example) mage characters that the normal rules can (because obviously they're all magicians at minimum). I don't think the current rules can do this. I think they unnecessarily (and accidentally) constrain the player to a very few setups that work *despite* the rules being the result of crossed purposes between the writers. *shrug*So what range of characters should the FSPC rules produce such that you would be satisfied?
Free spirits, like free AI, are bound by certain fundamentals concepts. A free spirit cannot produce a range of characters that the normal rules can, it is simply impossible given the way the character creation rules are written. A mage can be an elf, an ork, or any other race, but a free spirit is "racially" a free spirit.
Well, an AI has no for itself natural way of acting in the real world.
An AI can, basically, be a hacker or rigger only in most cases i would think.
A free spirit should, basically, be able to do most anything anybody with a meat body can do too. Maybe just not as well because of the huge starting cost for them.
Because they can materialize and then actually have a body. The only limit would be a no to any kind of Ware.
No cyber, bio, gen or nanotech. how you justify a free spirit being a kick ass street samurai without ware is something else entirely.
He may just be the spirit of John Rambo for what it's worth. Wether or not somebody once summoned him to be that and he went free or something else happened does not really matter i guess.
An AI can, basically, be a hacker or rigger only in most cases i would think.
A free spirit should, basically, be able to do most anything anybody with a meat body can do too. Maybe just not as well because of the huge starting cost for them.
Because they can materialize and then actually have a body. The only limit would be a no to any kind of Ware.
No cyber, bio, gen or nanotech. how you justify a free spirit being a kick ass street samurai without ware is something else entirely.
He may just be the spirit of John Rambo for what it's worth. Wether or not somebody once summoned him to be that and he went free or something else happened does not really matter i guess.
Yes, they can't choose race (though I consider that a missed opportunity re: the various spirit types!), and they can't not be magicians (adept would almost be interesting, but I assume that's why they get Critter powers). But that's fine, because I wasn't talking about race. Metatype is basically interchangeable for characters: just adjust the attributes.
With TJ's again as an example: people get up in arms about a 'weakling ork' daring to keep his Str 3, but a *powerful* spirit with 2s in everything is A-OK? With 3 max/near-max skills, and the rest at 1 or 0? That sounds like a character that ran out of points to make something round, and was instead forced to triage ('it'll get fixed in play'). One of the things that's nice about SR4 is that you don't have to do that with other characters. You can pick up 2 or 3 or 4 subspecialties, and dump stats are not required. Maybe it's just my own preference for broad generalists. The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).
With TJ's again as an example: people get up in arms about a 'weakling ork' daring to keep his Str 3, but a *powerful* spirit with 2s in everything is A-OK? With 3 max/near-max skills, and the rest at 1 or 0? That sounds like a character that ran out of points to make something round, and was instead forced to triage ('it'll get fixed in play'). One of the things that's nice about SR4 is that you don't have to do that with other characters. You can pick up 2 or 3 or 4 subspecialties, and dump stats are not required. Maybe it's just my own preference for broad generalists.
The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2012, 09:15 PM)
With TJ's again as an example: people get up in arms about a 'weakling ork' daring to keep his Str 3, but a *powerful* spirit with 2s in everything is A-OK? With 3 max/near-max skills, and the rest at 1 or 0? That sounds like a character that ran out of points to make something round, and was instead forced to triage ('it'll get fixed in play'). One of the things that's nice about SR4 is that you don't have to do that with other characters. You can pick up 2 or 3 or 4 subspecialties, and dump stats are not required. Maybe it's just my own preference for broad generalists. The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).
The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).I do not get up in arms about a "weakling ork'. In fact, I do not see anything wrong with a Strength 3 ork. Similarly a powerful spirit with 2s in everything is alright. Perhaps it is my own preference for min-maxed characters, afterall, one should not be able to improve upon the most optimal build.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2012, 06:15 AM)
Yes, they can't choose race (though I consider that a missed opportunity re: the various spirit types!), and they can't not be magicians (adept would almost be interesting, but I assume that's why they get Critter powers). But that's fine, because I wasn't talking about race. Metatype is basically interchangeable for characters: just adjust the attributes.
With TJ's again as an example: people get up in arms about a 'weakling ork' daring to keep his Str 3, but a *powerful* spirit with 2s in everything is A-OK? With 3 max/near-max skills, and the rest at 1 or 0? That sounds like a character that ran out of points to make something round, and was instead forced to triage ('it'll get fixed in play'). One of the things that's nice about SR4 is that you don't have to do that with other characters. You can pick up 2 or 3 or 4 subspecialties, and dump stats are not required. Maybe it's just my own preference for broad generalists. The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).
With TJ's again as an example: people get up in arms about a 'weakling ork' daring to keep his Str 3, but a *powerful* spirit with 2s in everything is A-OK? With 3 max/near-max skills, and the rest at 1 or 0? That sounds like a character that ran out of points to make something round, and was instead forced to triage ('it'll get fixed in play'). One of the things that's nice about SR4 is that you don't have to do that with other characters. You can pick up 2 or 3 or 4 subspecialties, and dump stats are not required. Maybe it's just my own preference for broad generalists.
The FS does get some very unusual powers, but I'd get bored relying on the same 3 powers (however cool).I could have gone a different route, to be sure, but I chose the build I did based upon Concept. I filled in some of those holes you see with a few appropriate Spirit Powers. Some of which are definitely sub-optimal. It was an interesting character challenge that I wanted to explore. No different, really, than a person, thrust into the shadows though no fault of his own, having absolutely no idea on how to survive, but trying nonetheless.
Ramping up the capabilities of a free spirit pc is not really all that hard, either. Skills, for me, would have been paramount, along with a few more spirit powers I had my eye on. Then comes the stats, a little here and there over time, as he gained more familiarity with the world. Character was pretty resilient, could come and go as he pleased, could look however he wanted to (fitting in was EASY), knew a little bit about the world (and was learning more), and had what I considered to be an interesting background. *shrug*
For reference: He was a Free Spirit of Necromancy, from the Metaplane of Death. He is entertaining.
No doubt, TJ. And no doubt, again, you were able to fluff appropriately. I'm only saying my impression is that you were constrained by the funny RAW to make a character that didn't necessarily fit the concept, or your concept was constrained in that way. Obviously, this happens with all characters, but I'm positing that it happens to a much greater (unacceptably greater) degree with the current FSPC rules. Normal characters are not newborns, after all, and shouldn't require ramping up.Other people do, toturi. I do know that you like 'minmaxed builds'. No accounting for taste.
I'm not talking about optimization at all, though.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2012, 08:34 AM)
No doubt, TJ. And no doubt, again, you were able to fluff appropriately. I'm only saying my impression is that you were constrained by the funny RAW to make a character that didn't necessarily fit the concept, or your concept was constrained in that way. Obviously, this happens with all characters, but I'm positing that it happens to a much greater (unacceptably greater) degree with the current FSPC rules. Normal characters are not newborns, after all, and shouldn't require ramping up.Other people do, toturi. I do know that you like 'minmaxed builds'. No accounting for taste.
I'm not talking about optimization at all, though.Probably. I have not tried to build a fully "optimized" (I really hate that term, how about fully realized) FSPC, because I have never really had a good concept for one. I will have to think on it. I concede that you probably have a good point. I just never really considered it in that light, because I find a FSPC to be not very compelling, for the most part.
OK, maybe I'm missing the point. Fill me in if that is the case.
My out-of-the-box FSPC could fight, sneak, influence, transport team members. What else is there that she should have had but got nerfed out of? The only limitation I felt was that she had to continually rely on her teammates to keep track of her gear when she dematerialized.
My out-of-the-box FSPC could fight, sneak, influence, transport team members. What else is there that she should have had but got nerfed out of? The only limitation I felt was that she had to continually rely on her teammates to keep track of her gear when she dematerialized.
Not to mention that a starting FSPC _shouldn't_ be able compete with meat characters in their strengths, in my opinion.
Why?
Unlike meat characters, it is impossible for a FSPC to die unless intentionally murdered by a full mage on a specific astral quest.
Drop a Thor shot on him and he'll be back in a month.
That ability comes a price. Throw in funky spirit abilities that other PCs don't even have access to and you have a very viable character at pretty much any force. And then you add in the "special snowflake" tax... Face it - People play a free spirit because they want to play something different, not because it's the newest best way to get a huge dice pool.
I personally do not ike the free spirit PC rules. I think they are confusing and inconsistent. But I have nothing against a low-force free spirit not dominating the party. A high force FSPC WILL dominate the rest of the PCS no matter how badly it is made.
Why?
Unlike meat characters, it is impossible for a FSPC to die unless intentionally murdered by a full mage on a specific astral quest.
Drop a Thor shot on him and he'll be back in a month.
That ability comes a price. Throw in funky spirit abilities that other PCs don't even have access to and you have a very viable character at pretty much any force. And then you add in the "special snowflake" tax... Face it - People play a free spirit because they want to play something different, not because it's the newest best way to get a huge dice pool.
I personally do not ike the free spirit PC rules. I think they are confusing and inconsistent. But I have nothing against a low-force free spirit not dominating the party. A high force FSPC WILL dominate the rest of the PCS no matter how badly it is made.
To be fair, enduring a Thor shot would cause the FSPC to lose a point of Force.
"Special" PCs?
I guess they could take the Short Bus to the Shadowrun... Wouldn't the GMC Stepvan be considered a "Short Bus"?
I guess they could take the Short Bus to the Shadowrun... Wouldn't the GMC Stepvan be considered a "Short Bus"?
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 29 2012, 10:34 AM)
No doubt, TJ. And no doubt, again, you were able to fluff appropriately. I'm only saying my impression is that you were constrained by the funny RAW to make a character that didn't necessarily fit the concept, or your concept was constrained in that way. Obviously, this happens with all characters, but I'm positing that it happens to a much greater (unacceptably greater) degree with the current FSPC rules. Normal characters are not newborns, after all, and shouldn't require ramping up.Other people do, toturi. I do know that you like 'minmaxed builds'. No accounting for taste.
I'm not talking about optimization at all, though.I endorse your line of reasoning 100% here.
The issue with FSPCs is that they do lack flexibility. If I were to show you two sets of builds, one with almost all 2s for stats, 2 4s for Drain stats, a 6 magic and 5 Edge, with only four skills (most of which nearly maxed out) and like 3 spells, you'd consider them niche characters or gimmicky builds. If I were to reveal that one was a human, that assumption would be correct. But if I were to reveal the other as a FSPC, the consensus would change to "Oh, that's actually fairly well built." There's a very visible, distinct double-standard that comes with building a FSPC, moreso than with any other metatype. You must either build one to either niche-out and be the best at one thing, or be a generalist and almost useless for everything.
For two theoretical exercises on your own:
1) Build a mage that can also drive and shoot a gun. Now do the same for a FSPC.
2) Build a mage that is also a face that also uses melee weapons. Now do the same for a FSPC.
Also, compare TJ's FSPC to a Force 6 Spirit of Man. FSPCs should be comparable to other spirits, not comparable to shut-ins who are resistant to death.
QUOTE
I endorse your line of reasoning 100% here.
Excuse me, I have to go lie down for a while.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 30 2012, 09:40 AM)
Excuse me, I have to go lie down for a while.
Heh...
Idea behind this Char is the granite skin combined with mystic armor giving him a total of 9/9 hardened armor. Anything below 9 dmg is just deflected
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Jul 31 2012, 10:57 AM)
Idea behind this Char is the granite skin combined with mystic armor giving him a total of 9/9 hardened armor. Anything below 9 dmg is just deflected
Why do you think the mystic armor is also hardened? Just because granite shell is hardened doesn't turn the mystic armor into hardened armor, too. Or does it?
-CJ
Well it just says by RAW that it isn't compatible with WORN ARMOR and since mystic armor is NOT WORN it will stack
You could also add Titanium Bones and such things to raise the armor even more, since it's NOT WORN on the skin
Runners Companion p.112
" The character’s skin contains massive calcite inclusions that make it appear grayish and hard as rock. Treat Granite Shell as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor (p. 288, SR4). This quality is not compatible with any worn armor and counts for Armor and Encumbrance (p. 149, SR4)."
You could also add Titanium Bones and such things to raise the armor even more, since it's NOT WORN on the skin
Runners Companion p.112
" The character’s skin contains massive calcite inclusions that make it appear grayish and hard as rock. Treat Granite Shell as 3/3 armor that counts as Hardened Armor (p. 288, SR4). This quality is not compatible with any worn armor and counts for Armor and Encumbrance (p. 149, SR4)."
"And because it does not say that Trolls can't fly, i am now airborne"
You get the full ammount in soft armor and if the damage after that is below the Hardened ammount of 3 you actually get the full benefits of hardened armor.
You get the full ammount in soft armor and if the damage after that is below the Hardened ammount of 3 you actually get the full benefits of hardened armor.
I would say it's up to the GM because by RAW it's doable.
Problem is like you stated, everyone has a seperate interpretation about such things since the Books don't cover that area
Problem is like you stated, everyone has a seperate interpretation about such things since the Books don't cover that area
Hardened Armor is, in SR4, mostly useless.
Under SR3 it was really boss. You straight up ignored Stun Damage and any Damage below the Hardened armor. And Armor lowered Damage directly.
So Hardened 3 was pretty good, because you could tack on 10 normal Armor and lower any Damage taken by 10 and then it usually was below the 3 points hardened Armor. And then you ignore anything.
Under SR3 it was really boss. You straight up ignored Stun Damage and any Damage below the Hardened armor. And Armor lowered Damage directly.
So Hardened 3 was pretty good, because you could tack on 10 normal Armor and lower any Damage taken by 10 and then it usually was below the 3 points hardened Armor. And then you ignore anything.
I don't see how 'augmenting' Hardened Armor is any kind of RAW. It definitely makes Drake, Granite, etc. powerful, but that's not exactly a good reason. Hardened Armor isn't contagious. You get 3/3 'Hardened' and 6/6 normal, for a total *perhaps* of 9/9 normal with a 3/3 Hardened effect to be checked first.
Stahlseele, to try and get more power, you could argue that it's checked second, but that's kinda nuts. Hardened Armor says you check the Hardened effect and 'don't bother to soak' if it's better. To make this work, you have to assume that the other armor is separate and there are 2 soak tests: Mystic/other soak, then Hardened check, then 3/3 soak. However, there is only one soak test in combat.
Hardened Armor isn't contagious. You get 3/3 'Hardened' and 6/6 normal, for a total *perhaps* of 9/9 normal with a 3/3 Hardened effect to be checked first.Stahlseele, to try and get more power, you could argue that it's checked second, but that's kinda nuts. Hardened Armor says you check the Hardened effect and 'don't bother to soak' if it's better. To make this work, you have to assume that the other armor is separate and there are 2 soak tests: Mystic/other soak, then Hardened check, then 3/3 soak. However, there is only one soak test in combat.
But having granite armor would be totaly pointless as a "positive quality" since you can't combine it with any worn armor. While other people easily get 12/8 armor without min maxing you're stuck with 3/3 ?
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".
I agree they suck, but that's not an okay way to fix them. Like I said, you can easily have one Damage Resistance and still have things work: 1) check Hardened effect against incoming attack; 2) soak as normal with 9/9. This is how spirits do it, and it's how Granite works solo.
I agree Granite, Drake, etc. should be fixed. You'd need at least 6 Hardened armor to do really anything (at that level, block holdouts and weak melee attacks).
I agree Granite, Drake, etc. should be fixed. You'd need at least 6 Hardened armor to do really anything (at that level, block holdouts and weak melee attacks).
QUOTE (The Wrestling Troll @ Jul 31 2012, 06:09 AM)
But having granite armor would be totaly pointless as a "positive quality" since you can't combine it with any worn armor. While other people easily get 12/8 armor without min maxing you're stuck with 3/3 ?
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".
In that case it's more a negative quality instead of something positive. The reason I thought it would stack is, because there is only one soak test (like yerameyahu mentioned) and mystic armor doesn't count as "worn armor".
BUT, Mystic Armor is NOT HARDENED. It will stack to 9/9, but it will only have 3 of which that is Hardened. SO you ignore any thing that is 3DV or less, and then anything over, you have 9 armor for.
However, never discount that you will always have 3 points of Hardened Armor, even Nude. Helpful, that, when you get shot with flechette rounds...
You're never/always nude, you're the Thing without the trunks.
Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.
Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.
Make it so the DV actually gets lowered by the ammount of hardened armor for example?
Or make it so that you can simply ignore all Stun-Damage from Attacks not Magical or Chemical?
Or make it so that you can simply ignore all Stun-Damage from Attacks not Magical or Chemical?
Hard Armor would be cool if it just reduces damage by its amount, but then you would have to tone down spirits ^^
Yeah, is that how it was in SR3? Re: spirits, we did have a big thread about changing ITNW, and 'auto-hits' on soak was one of the options (I didn't like how it worked out, though). Flat reduction seems to be a problem often; I'm not wild about how it works in Eclipse Phase, for example. It's a tricky problem. But we can agree that 3/3 and 4/4 aren't really functional.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 31 2012, 07:59 AM)
You're never/always nude, you're the Thing without the trunks.
Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.
Is there any other scenario where 3 points of Hardened armor would matter, and does the Hardened aspect even count? Against flechette (as if), the DV is well above 3, so really you're just saying 'you have 3 armor'. Better to just have a dermal +1 at that point. Are there *any* attacks below 3 DV? Darts? Extremely weak punches (Stun already, and you'd soak that with or without 3 extra dice)? We've been through this before with Drake 4/4… there's just nothing this could ever meaningfully apply to.
Heh... Okay... Point Taken...
Darts are DV 0, Yes
A Drake with The Surge Quality would then have 7/7 Hardened, which is not insignificant.
Though even then, I would not choose that path for any of my characters.
Yeah, 7/7 is just enough to shrug off weaker melee and 'small-caliber' bullets (with only a couple net hits and no Called Shot). If that's what you're going for, I feel like some kind of inherent Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, or Regeneration effect would be better (toned down, tweaked, etc. first). The other problem is it's not ITNW, so you still have a mere 7/7 normal armor (typically the barest minimum for a runner).
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 31 2012, 09:41 AM)
Yeah, 7/7 is just enough to shrug off weaker melee and 'small-caliber' bullets (with only a couple net hits and no Called Shot). If that's what you're going for, I feel like some kind of inherent Trauma Damper, Platelet Factory, or Regeneration effect would be better (toned down, tweaked, etc. first). The other problem is it's not ITNW, so you still have a mere 7/7 normal armor (typically the barest minimum for a runner).
Yeah, I kind of agree with that. 7/7 is nice, but not at the expense of wearing other armor. *shrug*
I had considered a troll drake adept with Infusion (?) to boost armor. He'd have something like 11 normally and then more with a boost. Even then, though, that's a lot of effort for the same armor that a Body 4 mage can get with PPP + FFBA + Armor.
Yeah, under SR3, Armor DIRECTLY DECREASES DAMAGE.
And Hardened Armor ignores ALL STUN even then when the damage is much higher than the Armor itself.
And it ignores all PHYSICAL Damage, as long as the Damage is Equal or less than the Armor.
Yes, SR3 Hardened Armor is basically an Iron-Man-Suit.
And Hardened Armor ignores ALL STUN even then when the damage is much higher than the Armor itself.
And it ignores all PHYSICAL Damage, as long as the Damage is Equal or less than the Armor.
Yes, SR3 Hardened Armor is basically an Iron-Man-Suit.
But it was also rare and probably too good, anyway. Hardened armor effects in RPGs are not easy to do right, esp. given the rest of the SR4 system in place.
Hardened armor effects in RPGs are not easy to do right, esp. given the rest of the SR4 system in place.
Yeah, Hardened Armor was MilSpec only.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 31 2012, 11:30 AM)
Yeah, Hardened Armor was MilSpec only.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.
Normal Armor still reduced Damage by it's ammount.
So the TN to resist went from double digits to low single digits in most cases . .
But then you still needed enough net hits to actually stage it all down . .
It does not matter if you only have to roll 2's. If you have to roll 16 two's to not die you will die with a body of 8 in most cases.
SR3 had not stun instead of physical damage mechanic. You took physical? You resist physical. You took Stun? You resist Stun.
In that situation, You would only ever need to roll 8 2's to stage from Deadly to No Damage.
No, you would need to roll 8 two's to get fromt he net hits to only deadly damage.
And THEN you need to roll ANOTHER 8 two's to get to 0 damage taken.
And THEN you need to roll ANOTHER 8 two's to get to 0 damage taken.
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