For the whole force = min & max attribute:

Determines =/= is. The minimum can be determined by force, if it's based on the starting force.

Slightly later, we get this:
Here we get clearly that the maximum is equal to force. There would literally be no reason to include this sentence if the previous one stated that all attributes = force.

Also, while not precisely rules text, this bit from the rules on creating FS characters helps to frame intention.
I do not believe that by a greater level of detail, they meant uniformity of attributes.

Catalyst is woefully un-precise in pretty much all of their rules

Anyway, if Force didn't decide the minimum value too, then it wouldn't say that attributes started out at 2 as well. It would be 1 if Force wasn't the minimum too, which is it.
It also says this even later than your example, so the order in which it's presented doesn't matter when judging intent - and just reinforces that Force=Min+max.

It's force is the natural maximum which can be modified by such things as exceptional attribute which would still require you to raise the attribute as normal.

Good eye. Exceptional attribute and Metagenetic Improvement are basically the only two ways for a PC Free Spirit to get values above Force.

Lightning Reflexes too.

oo very nice actually worth taking

Forgot about this one. Its actually worth it on a free spirit.

Also worth noting is that Free Spirits have Augmented Maximums as normal(force x 1.5), which doesn't really matter unless you're using attribute boost spells, but it's there.

Ha, Metagenic free spirits… sigh.

Indeed... was still laughing when you posted. Will the insanity ever stop?

Man, its like you guys don't even read up on these things before deciding whether its possible or not. Surge rules have a specific mention for critters and non-human entities.

That being said it can be funny enough to work sometimes, though I put it in the other thread.

It's funny regardless of what the rules say, is the point. People do try stuff like this all the time, and it's equally bad if the rules (incorrectly) allow it.

So here is a crazy querstion, that I am not sure which side I fall upon.

When creating an Infected, the Infected Quality is a just that, A Quality. So, when you are creating an Infected in Karma Gen, how does that fall out? For example:

I want an Infected Dwarf (Goblin).

Is the Cost 25 for the Race (Dwarf) and then an additional 35 BP for the Goblin for a total of 60 BP (or 60 Karma in Karma Gen due to Errata)
or
Is it 25 BP for the Dwarf, and 35 BP (x2) for the Infected Quality for a total of 95 Karma in Errated Karma Gen?

I am theory crafting here...
Thanks

It's the last one. I just--for the heck of it--did a little 'theory crafting' on a vampire last night, so yeah, it's the metatype cost plus the quality x 2. (Which pretty much means if you wanna make a vampire, you have to use the new point total to get a decent build)

TJ, I forget, how does that interact with the normal PQ limit (35BP)? Some of them are greater than that. We always just ignore it, but I'm curious if that's 'wrong'.

Is that still the same 'decent build' definition you used in the last thread?

Can't remember what page it was, but I know I read that those didn't count toward that limit (if they did, than most of them would just be flat impossible to take).

As to the 'decent build', think about it, with metatype cost, plus the cost of the quality, you really need a significant increase to get a build equivalent to a character without the extra expense of the quality. Especially with vampire considering 200 karma or 100 BP just to be one (300 or 150 for nosferatu).

I'm of the mind that in karmagen the cost is doubled - at least for ghouls, which is when it last came up, because you get more than you paid for.

But I'm also of the mind that infected qualities are basically Metatype Addons that got qualified as Qualities for some reason, and shouldn't cost double even though they do.

It's doubled because all Qualities get doubled in cost.

yeah i pointed that out.

But when you look at what an infected quality DOES, its basically a second metatype slapped onto the first. IE a 'second race'.
And races don't get doubled.
So it just seems kind of odd that a blanket rule(for your regular qualities) changes something it wasn't quite meant to.(shit guys we can't make ghouls a metatype, what do)
Its easy to quote the rules and say what happens, but its wierd when you think about the why of it.

Yeah, it sucks, but ya gotta deal with it to make characters by the rules (otherwise it's cheating).

Runners' Companion, page 96 sidebar.

It is, however, prime houserule material

Thanks for the clarifications, everyone. I was thinking it doubled as a quality, but just wanted to make sure.
And no, the Infected Quality does not count towards the 35 point limit.

Awesomeness...
Now to see how well my Zoroastrian Magical Threats Hunter actually turns out.
Thanks to Caadium for the original idea.

What was likely meant was that the initial Force of a PC Free Spirit sets the Attribute Minimums and the Final Force value sets the Attribute Maximums.

So as a PC FS starts at Force 2 and can raise Force up to 6, their stats are all 2's across the board and can go up to 6 in each normal/special attribute, limited by the PC FS's Force Attribute.

Sadly the wording that was ultimately used doesn't work terribly well.

Sadly, that's not how it actually works. You are right about the terrible wording, but Force sets the minimum too, and stats are dragged upwards as force increases.

As evidenced by all stats starting at force instead of 1.

I would suggest paying the double for infected but adding it after attributes so you aren't also paying more for the increased attributes.

All spirits attributes are based on force why change it just for PC spirits.

This. So hard this.

Because you only would need to spend the Karma for raising Force, not for raising Attributes themselves.
Going from Force 5 to Force 6 is probably a LOT cheaper than raising ALL Attributes from 5 to 6 by themselves right?
A little bit unfair compared to the MetaSapientHumans who have to go that route i would guess . .

They also don't have to spend most of their BP on their metatype. Also losing essence reduces all their stats.

It's just a huge mess overall, we know that.

Assuming karmagen, a force 6 FS is 340 karma. Spending that amount on stats for any other type won't get you anywhere close to that.

Yes. This is why you pay 250BP up front to be a free spirit. The convenience cost of having to only raise one attribute is included already.
You know, kind of like how trolls get are expensive but get a ton of free attributes too!



However, its actually pretty balanced. While free spirits get nice stats, they don't get HIGH stats. Pretty much everyone else on the team is going to be better than them at the their specialty.
Spirits really don't get access to gear and augmentation bonuses. Even foci are specifically disallowed. While they have nice stats across the board.... that's basically all they are ever going to have.
Like the team samurai looking at them across the safehouse table, going 'haha, I have 10 agility and 9 reaction, stop being jealous and TRY and touch this'.

They can't dodge the spirit's spells and powers, and it's not using a gun… so why would it care? Besides, this is assuming the role the FS is trying for is 'team samurai'.

Why does the whole fireball-bullet concept make me think of the caster gun in Outlaw Star? For anyone not familiar with the show, it's a gun that fires special shells that are expensive and hard to come by, as each one casts a different spell on impact, some more powerful than others.

Indeed... Thank You Yerameyahu...

This is why Hardy wants to increase the amount of karma you get to 1000.

What?

And the FS looks back and says "12 hardened armor, bitch". And activates Movement power, Concealment power and uses Fear or Influence or whatever method of disabling the opponent was chosen.

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. J. Hardy is not thinking things through correctly. AS has been demonstrated on more than one occasion about this very topic.

No where does it state that the other attributes automatically increase as you buy up the Magic rating (Force) of the free spirit PC in character creation. They start at the same rating, but after that, all that increases is the maximum. Sorry, but I need to see something from a developer as proof that the intention is for them to only pay to raise the one attribute to raise them all.

I can't find such mention except for Runners Companion, page 73, "The first step when creating a changeling character is to choose a normal metatype human, elf, dwarf, ork, or troll), metavariant (p. 46), or, contingent on gamemaster approval, a Non-Metahuman sapient." Every description I can find of the Surge process in Runners Companion talks about modifications to genetic material.

Spirits don't have genetic material.

Can you tell me where you find support for your position?

Just so you know all of these powers take Complex Actions to use. Spirits get two passes.They're really not that great.




Page 100, Surge and Critters: It should be noted that SURGE is not an exclusively meta -human phenomenon, etc

Spirits ARE critters.

And sometimes, giving a free spirit rock star hair is too funny to pass up.

It's not about making sense, pbangarth. It's about "the rules don't say I can't… assuming the GM is an idiot about approval".

In the absence of a GM, its best to go by raw.

Sr4 is full of so many ambigious things that are 'up to the gamemaster's discretion' that there is really no standardized game.

For example, the game that wrapped up recently had a Free Spirit with Martial Arts in it, because the player wanted to play an ancient shinto spirit warrior - except Martial Arts aren't on the list of allowed spirit qualities, so its not allowed. Our gm overrode that, on the grounds of being interesting and concept fitting, but its still technically an illegal play.

I figured this was a perfect example of that particular brand of nonsense.

Those GM approval notes are in there for a reason, Udoshi. I know it's traditional in 'charop' to assume the GM allows everything, but that's precisely how you get stuff like metagenics on 'critters' that have no genes. You give a great example: the GM is free to do what's *good* for the game, like allowing Martial Arts. That is his job. But assuming he says 'yes' to everything is not 'RAW', as you suggest.

Don't need to Surge a Spirit to Get Rock Star Hair.
I thought it was pretty obvious. Especially since the powers were already listed.

Mutable Form works for that just fine. Combined with Realistic Form, and he even looks normal as well.

You'll have to take my word for it, unfortunately, because I don't remember what thread it was in, but some time ago, Aaron (who wrote the FSPC rules) explicitly stated that the intention is for Free Spirit PC's to raise attributes individually. One reason he gave for this is that the NPC spirit rules make it so that a very high-STR spirit is also usually very agile, very tough, and very intelligent. The FSPC rules of raising attributes individually is intended (among other things) to allow more variety in FSPC builds. Also, contrary to what Udoshi claims, the "convenience cost" of only having to raise one attribute is NOT factored in to the 250 BP racial cost. The 250 BP comes more from the fact that you start at a 2 in all attributes, can fly, move incredibly quickly due to your completely astral nature, can quasi-teleport using metaplanar shortcuts, get access to potent critter powers that can't be counterspelled (like Influence, Accident, Weather Control, Divining, and Regeneration), and other things of that nature.

Double Post. My third ever.

I can refute that, but that's neither here nor there (Geomancy does not exactly say what you're trying to make it say). You can get a similar effect through Filtering.

EDIT: nevermind, already said. I really need to read the whole thread before I post..


The underlined is an argument in semantics. If I determine that this is water I am drinking, then it is water I am drinking. If the Force determines the minimum, then the force is the minimum. This also goes with the later sentence about having to raise Force to raise other attributes.


When do the effects of the attribute increases come into play in Karmagen? That's an important question, because raising a Body from 1 to 2 is easier than a 5 to 6 (for human ghouls, to choose one at random).

As for more on FSPCs, I've been working on some houserules to correct them and bring them more in line with other spirits. IIRC the designer for them said that he had it worded differently and at a cost of 65 BP for all stats starting at 2 and raising each individually (like some people think it should be), but somewhere along the line it was increased to 250 BP and the wording changed. If I'm paying 65 BP for a spirit, I'll buy each attribute separately. If I'm paying 250 I'll need them all to raise at the same time, please. This is simply for a viability approach.