Hey, i'm making a phyad char for a run, we were given 450 BP to start with so i find myself with enough left over to get some weapon focuses and the hard part now is deciding on said weapons. I was wondering if anyone could give me some pros and cons on using either the Ruger Super Warhawks, or the Ruger Thunderbolts. (+2 wep foci each). (no smartgun atm tho, just lasersights). the char concept is that he is an ex Swat member that got framed by some crooked cops, he had to go underground and took most of his possessions with him. (he is now a part time PI and runner under different name)

One of each for guns akimbo!

If the right one don't get ya the left one will.

well I was feeling towards dualing either one or the other /:. i heard you can make the warhawks SA with a mod from arsenal so they are looking a bit better now. but BF is still nice for a pistol lol

Pistols cannot be enchanted as weapon foci (unless you are using them to pistol-whip people), unless your GM is doing some serious house ruling.

Yeah, best you can do is get initiated and take attunement:pistols. Weapon foci are a melee only thing and unless you melee harden those pistols there is no reason to make them foci.
As for which to choose, the Warhawks are nice, high damage guns but suffer from a small ammo capacity, can't use silencers and need a mod just to be SA. Good if you don't mind being loud.
Thunderbolts are BF only, but can take a suppressor. Problem is you can't get them fully recoil comped since they can't use a gas vent (not allowed for pistols). However, as an adept, you can get adept centering once you initiate and use that to compensate for the recoil penalties. They also only fire narrow burst, so no using them to take away dodge from agile enemies.
I'd add extended mag to the Thunderbolt, get it smartlinked and get contact lenses with image link and smartlink. Also add personalized grip and maybe auto-adjusting weight to help with recoil (depends on how the GM interprets mod vs. accessory).

Thanks for the info. I never used foci before except for spellcasting. and I thought I read at one point you could get RC from having a high str. or is that only with certain things? and can one initiate if they have taken augmentations? I cant seem to find anything really about that in the book. and is there a way to increase ammo cap. for the warhawk? like an extended clip would work for other pistols?

1. Yes you can get RC from High Strength (Arsenal)
2. Yes you Can Initiate with Augmentations. They do not keep you from advancing your Magic.
3. Increasing Ammo Capacity for a Warhawk (Increased Cylinder - Arsenal)

Hope that helps...

Recoil compensation from strength is an optional rule from Arsenal page 163:

..Adding Personalized grip and Under-barrel weight modifications + STR to RC
to Thunderbolt's standard 2 RC => 5 RC..

Thanks guys! alright think my guy is read to go . but one other question in your own opinions should I put points into autmatics, or long arms and why? how often would you use a sniper rifle in an actual game? guess that technically two questions lol. oh and thanks for the stats on str rec.

Depends upon the Character. My Mercenary has all Firearms Skills, since he may be called upon to use any type of weapon at any time. Others only take Pistols, or Automatics, or Longarms. Depends upon the style of the character.

As for the Sniper Rifle. Used them a time or two in game, over the years. Not real common, since a Good AR/BR can cover the majority of situations that will crop up for a Sniper character. Of course, Shotguns are in the Longarm category as well, and they are a pretty solid choice.

I forgot the most important question: Which one looks better in the character's hand?

Style over Substance...

k, my guy is an ex swat member ( or basically the equivalent) and he is a sharpshooter, lol so I dunno, dont particulary want to waste the points for a sniper if they arent used much, and my char wouldnt use a shotgun. he has the idea that automatic weps just waste ammo (spray and pray).

The last game I played in, i was specialized as a sniper (actually took up hacking as we didn't have a hacker or rigger) which basically meant i infiltrated a nearby building and got in position and guiding the team in and out. How often did I use a sniper rifle? Every run, but I also was staying away from the action as I was also hacking the systems from afar. I personally loved it.

Most SWAT Snipers would use Battle Rifles, which fall under Automatics. Best of both worlds, range of a Rifle with the Automatic Firepower of an Assault Rifle.

And a great amount of discussion and argument here.

If I remember correctly, Most SWAT Snipers (They are reaslly Marksmen, actually) use a modified Hunting Rifle in some variation of 7mm. You will not normally see a SWAT Sniper with a Military Grade Barrett.

Small caliber precision weapons for police marksmen. Don't want collateral damage.

~Umi

Battle Rifle would be more like an M-14 than a Barrett.

Still too much risk of overpenetration, and actually rather inaccurate in comparison to high precision rifles.

~Umi

The accuracy issue has more to do with being an old select fire design than anything wrong with the round, however. A lot of departments do prefer .223 but nobody's exactly shocked to find SWAT using members of the .30 family either.

For an ex-SWAT marksman, take longarms. It suits the archetype the best and seems the most likely skill to have learned. Sure Automatics is the go to uber skill but if you want to stick to your concept, longarms and pistols is what you should have.
Pick up the PSG sniper rifle from Arsenal as it is the one listed as most used by SWAT teams. Ability to use a shotgun suits a cop as a bonus weapon for in close work at ranges beyond the pistol. If you need your rifle to be concealable, grab the Easy Breakdown mod for it so you can stuff it in a suitcase or gym bag or what have you. Add ceramic components if you want to be totally stealthy. No need for recoil comp as most or all sniper rifles come with the 1 point you need (bi-pods or shock pads or whatever).
Sniper rifles, like many weapons beyond a pistol or SMG are weapons of opportunity. Sure, you won't use them every time but man, better have it and not need it than need it and not have it. We solved several problems in game with the judicious application of sniper fire, either from a flying drone or well place meat sniper.
Bonus points because you just look cool carrying one.

Considering what a SWAT marksman might have to shoot at in shadowrun (just look at some of the character builds people have posted here) it would not surprise me if the Barret was on the small side of their arsenal with things like long barrel assault cannons or Ares Heavy MP lasers being common.

One of my favorite weapons is probably the Mannlicher from Arsenal. With 8P/-1 AP and adding on a cheap mod for making it semiautomatic, you get a damage output comparable to an assault rifle firing short narrow bursts with a less glaringly dangerous weapon. You get double the range out of it AND have no need for further recoil compensation (shockpad comes standard).

If you're using a real sniper rifle (the Ares Desert Strike is my favorite for this category), you get even better distance and a nice damage bump. You cross into highly illegal weapons territory, but with a base damage of 9P/-4 AP when using ex-explosive rounds (you might as well since semi-autos are cheap to feed) you're almost hitting assault cannon damage. Two shots from this weapon will deal damage rivaling an assualt rifle firing narrow bursts as fast as it can with regular ammo. (Desert strike does 20P/8AP and costs 20 to fire vs a Ares Alpha which does 22P/-4AP and costs 18 to fire) This is without significant recoil, and silencers are an option with the weapon being semi-automatic. With the high base damage, you also become a lot scarier for spirits and vehicles.

True... But most Snipers still use a Hunting Rifle modified to their specifications. *shrug*
In game, I prefer the HK-PSG.

Many hunting rifles are closer to an M14 than a M16 (or a Barrett).

Just sayin.




-k

This is true.

Thanks for all the input guys, if you guys want ill post a fleshed out description of my char. and yea being able to use shotguns would make a lot of sense. I gave him SiNNer criminal due to his being framed by crooked cops (he had to go underground and had to join the very people he had been fighting against, Ironic huh). never had someone use that negative quality before what could i expect from it?

A lot of Ex-Lone Star 'Runners if you want to work with them. They're not too trusted compared to "Professional Criminals".

After all, they were too stupid to get a real job, and worked for Lone Star.

Criminal SINner isn't much worse than SINner. Be careful not to leave finger prints or DNA samples (blood, hair, etc) laying about, carry some C-squared for clean up and try not to get caught by the cops. It's the getting caught by them part that makes Criminal SINner worse. You already have a record so bluffing your way out of a situation becomes much harder. If you end up in custody you get treated worse (strikes against, previous record, yada yada).
It will really depend on your game and GM. If you guys play stone cold pros and clean up after yourself, Criminal SINner ends up being a game hook that the GM will need to work into the story. If you are the shoot 'em all types, well then it becomes a reason for the cops to take you out and provides them with records of your DNA, etc. If you become enough of a pain, ritual sorcery becomes an option.
If you want real world examples of what Criminal SINner could be like, just google what sort of things someone with a criminal record can't do (travel is a big one).

Vending Machine Flats with the hood up, cheap goggles and air filter on. Get it a size or two larger than you need, and you're golden for it over your armour.

well the reason he joined them in the first place was because he was saved by an officer after his parents were massacred by the poli humanis club ( he is basically a half ork with an orcish mother and a human father, or had, as it was) after that he was sent to live with his fathers parents, his mothers were dead, after he was framed he went underground and with some help from very close friends was able to obtain a new identity. he seeks to eventually "get back" at the cops that framed him, and find the leaders of the organization that killed his parents, but for now, he works in the shadows honing his skills, oh and also he uses the skills he has learned as a part time thing working as a PI. thats basically the short story lol. he isn't very logical but he is very intuitive and creative, and he is fairly likeable and good with wordplay .

and thanks for the info concerning the criminal sinner, dont get caught, easy enough >:3

There aren't any "Half-Orks", but Metatypes can give birth to any other metatype.

So when that Troll stands up, looks down at you, and says, "I'm a Dwarf!", don't argue. His parents could actually be Dwarves.

[quote name='CanRay' date='Aug 12 2012, 10:21 PM' post='1174826']
There aren't any "Half-Orks", but Metatypes can give birth to any other metatype.

So when that Troll stands up, looks down at you, and says, "I'm a Dwarf!", don't argue. His parents could actually be Dwarves.
[/quote

I know there is no "half orc" per say, just thought of it to help with the back story :/ lol. i figured since all metatypes were still considered to be in the same family as "humans" they could in theory reproduce with others, maybe should just take the human looking perk and say its natural? eh. i used ork traits and what not, was just for fluff purposes

I was reading the beginning of the thread about the revolvers. There is a Mod in arsenal (pg 153) that is a revolver silencer. With the right positive quality(s) a character can start with one. It's 16F avail.

thanks for the info, but if go revolvers there is no way I could convince myself to silence them lol. id just feel bad about it XD

I know the feeling. One of the things I like doing is using 2 tricked out Ares Pred IV w/ hidden gun arm slides and smartlink contacts for the quiet but deadly type.

o man lol, I have almost that same thing, dual coltmanhunters lol, hidden armslide ftw

Ah, OK. Just making sure you knew there wasn't "Half Breeds", and that everyone's pretty much Metahuman.

There's no theory about it, all the metatypes can breed with each other. Makes for interesting sites on the Matrix, let me tell you. *Nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

yea lol. so fluff question, my guy works as a PI now, would you think stealth or influence skills would work better?

While this is probably right, keep in mind that the Sixth World leaves certain practices of today behind. A Lone Star SWAT marksman must reasonably be expected to put down Drones, cybered-to-the-gills rage gangers and even trolls and werebears!

Packing a light fifty is perhaps the first of the considerations going through such a man or womans head, when they shop for the job..


(This is just the flavor-GM in me, of course. Technically I doubt any weapon can be relied on to put down a juiced-up Shadowrun adversary in one shot. Perhaps a better compromise would be SWAT 'gunners' infiltrating at closer range to place bursts of APDS fire with a battle rifle or high-power chambered hunting rifle. At least, unless the police have gotten so beefed Gauss Rifles are needed to keep the natives in check..)


Edit: Sorry Raiden, didn't see last question. A touch of Shadowing and Infiltration is indispensable, but I'd go with more Influence skills as well. Putting the right pressure on people, conning people into saying things they shouldn't, threatening at the right time to get info from a pliable source - People skills beat breaking and entering nearly all the time.

cool, ill make sure he has some infiltration and palming along with some nice socials. as for weapons I leaning towards modded up warhawks (SA with 8 round chamber, and personalized hanggrip +smartgun) and the Walter MA, since well, its availability is allowed lol. wanted that ranger arms though T.T lol. also have two hidden arm slide pistols :3 I only carry pistols when not on a run though

Shadowrun operates on movie physics so I'd expect what weapons cops and corpsec use depends mostly on how the GM views the setting. If you're assuming that Shadowrun is mostly like today but with sci-fi tech then the cops probably use pain inducers, stick and shock and tasers for the most part and send in specialized drones and SWAT whenever some jerk decides to shoot up an office building. But if you crank the cynicism dial all the way to Verhoeven all bets are pretty much off--the executives are mostly preening assholes with briefcase SMGs and a panic room and the contract cops probably aren't too worried about accidentally shooting an intern.

Now, if we crank it up to Michael Bay, we have Pink Mohawk...

Nah, until Michael Bay brings us a three breasted Martian prostitute I think Verhoeven retains the crown.

As a quick aside, we know what a Shadowrun SWAT marksman is likely to be carrying. Lone Star Fast Response Teams (who are like SWAT but don't care about that "arresting people" thing quite as much) normally have a shooter with a MA 2100, and so do SWAT (except they've got four "snipers" per team, making up a full one-fourth of their manpower) as of SOTA: 2064 (though back in the old Lone Star sourcebook the SWAT ones had Ranger Arms sniper rifles, instead).

But, yeah. Real life and the "sport rifle" class aside, it's pretty clear that in Shadowrun they go straight for the big guns.

Urban engagements are the norm for SWAT units anyway, so they shouldn't be carrying Barrets or anything with .50 in it's description. It'll blow through walls and has a range in miles. That's not precision like a shooter in that role would use, it's potential for collateral.* With a recent change in Seattle's Sec provider to KE because of Lone Star's shitty reputation, they'd certainly be looking at that. Sniper teams would work within a few hundred meters in an urban environment, which for them is pretty close range, and pretty long range for anyone not equipped like they are.

As for pistols, it's really more of a flavor choice. With all the mods you can throw in if your character has a good armorer contact or the skill, there's a lot of wiggle room between the individual types. Me I always like the Colt Manhunter, but that's mostly based off of the desription back in, what was it, Street Samurai Catalog? Revolvers have the damage, S-As with extended clips and BF can be fun. But if you're using a pistol as your primary, that's a character choice, not a tactical one, so might as well go with what feels like the character's style the most.

For a SWAT based character, a shotgun is still a viable weapon. For one, breaching doors. For two, room clearing. Depending on what you're firing, shot like 00 buck doesn't go as far as say an assault rifle round. Use a drum and a Selective Ammunition modifier to have a few different types of ammo handy to suit the situation.

Yeah, they shouldn't be...but since when does Law Enforcement in the Sixth World make sense? If we make them too rational and effective, the whole genre conceit of shadowrunning goes down the drain!


If you're sticking with a former-Lone Star theme, their favorites are the Mossberg CMDT (for Fast Response Teams), and CMDTs or Remington 990s (for SWAT), just FYI.

Touche

Yeah, strangely when I got into the military and the Law Enforcement/Force Protection sides of it, the Sec Forces in the games I ran got a lot more effective at their jobs. Players weren't too big of fans when they got into their first real shoot out with the Star. Which , coincidentally, was their last. They got really good at social engineering and quiet B&E.