Yes, but the fire doesn't need to be very intense.


A good shield will shrug off an infinite number of low-intensity blasts, you need some HEAVY firepower to go through it, whereas an unshielded but cloaked ship will crumple under firepower we're capable of throwing in 2012.

Of course, we've been arguing without factoring in the third defensive stat: armour. (and mobility, and size, and... yeah, there are a couple too many features for us to start adding more).

Again... Why would they even be firing in your general direction in the first place, if your Cloak is Perfect? I think you miss that point. Space is huge and empty. Why waste ordinance on empty space?

If they Know, or Suspect, you are there, then your Cloak is not Perfect.
At which point, Yes, Shields are the Choice.

FYI: that upgrade does nothing. You can already fire while cloaked without breaking your cloak.



Neat little science fiction story related to this comment

Because they got lucky, or you got unlucky. They don't have to have any idea that you're there. Maybe the gunner's finger slipped. Maybe the ordnance was launched several AUs away, a long time ago, and just happened to cross your path. Space may be huge and empty, but Sir Isaac Newton is still the deadliest son of a bitch out there.

being out in space, moving about, especially at higher speeds, WITHOUT SHIELDS is suicidal . .
even dust at higher speeds becomes a dangerous projectile . . it'd be like flying through infinite sand-paper-layers in something made of wood . .

So your saying becassue of GM Fiat, then. Got it.
So, In the grand vastness of our Solar System, While under a perfect Cloak, I am somehow hit by a random Blast of Enemy Fire. Sounds silly, doesn't it.

The premise was not "without Shields". The premise was whether you had Perfect Shields or Perfect Cloak. Given that question, I would opt for Perfect Cloak. My shields do not have to be perfect in that scenario, nor are they assumed to not be in existence.

The premise was in fact assuming that shields and cloaks were mutually exclusive.

A way to reveal that someone cloaked is firing at you, even under a perfect cloak: Some shots just impacted on your shield, and there's nothing at all on the scanners. The assault continues. Hmm, we are under attack from that direction (track trajectories from where the shots are hitting your shield). Better believe we'll light up that quadrant.

And there are ways around that too. You're assuming that your cloaked target is stationary.

Even so, no attacks can get through a perfect shield, while it's possible a random shot can hit something under a perfect cloak. Doesn't even have to be a shot, could be a meteor, satellite, other cloaked ship etc.

However, there's also practicality to factor in: A 'perfect' anything is impossible with the laws of thermodynamics as we know them, but for an imperfect device would a shield (Which will go down under heavy fire, it's only a matter of time) be more practical than a cloak (where they may pick you up, and if they do you're dead, but if they don't you're fine). Realistically, the answer is "It depends on the situation".

Example 1: you're fleeing a massive dreadnought, a single ship with staggering amounts of heavy firepower designed to obliterate heavily armoured targets. you just have to hold out until the warp drive warms up and you can escape. In this instance the cloak is superior as the Dreadnought's weapon systems are tailored to destroying heavily defended targets, while its a single ship with a single set of sensors, however advanced. this means that if you can fool that one ship's sensors for long enough then it can't bring its firepower to bear and you get away.

Example 2: instead of a dreadnought you're fleeing a fleet of smaller, lightly armed ships. Here a shield is preferable as it allows you to shrug off the minor hits, while with so many vessels scanning for you your imperfect cloak is liable to be spotted rather quickly, simply because of the number of ships scanning the area and comparing notes as they search for anomalies.

Which has more utility? well, on the assumption that any ship without shields is going to have thick enough armour to survive micro meteor hits then for covert and smuggler-types a cloak is good. for your average citizen or ship of the line a shield offers that extra peace of mind in case of collision.

Or you critical glitch, or your enemy has good enough intelligence with regards to your position, or you wander into a mine in a mine field, or you wander into a live fire exercise, or you do something that reveals enough about your position, heading, and speed, or...

It doesn't have to just be GM Fiat. Would it be dumb if it were? Yes. But if you decide to make your daring infiltration/exfiltration/escape through a live fire exercise that the GM had going on for verisimilitude's sake? Then Sir Isaac Newton pities the fool.

No, but there are some severe issues with some of their tech. Take Imperial AT-AT walkers. Armor that is impervious to blaster fire. Gets tripped up and suddenly it explodes after being shot in the head a couple times.

Those legs gotta be seriously weak or that grappling wire has some incredible tensile strength against armored legs designed to propel a vehicle weighting in at several hundred tonnes.

wow this thread has changed subjects twice lol. its never going to die at this rate, POST ALL THE POSTS

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Im still awaiting answers about sourdough cinnamon bread recipies dammit - Im pretty sure it will show up in this thread eventually.

Lol, think I shall wait around for some debate on the walking dead, or something else, lol. hmm ima go find meh moms cinnamon bread recipes. :3

Every one of those situations is GM Fiat (except for the CHOICE to go through a Live Fire Exercise, as that was the pilots doing... Stupid Pilot)...

"Make your roll to stealth through their detection grid."

"But we have a cloaaaaaak!" "Don't care, you can still glitch, roll."

*Every motherfucking die comes up 1.*

"I have good news and bad news for you. The bad news is that a tracking beacon on your hull lights up like Christmas. The good news is that hey, you can drop that cloak to power your shields!"

Nope, that is obviously at odds with a PERFECT Cloak. If it is Perfect, you will never Fail.
If you are going to continue to posit non-perfect situations, then you really should stop talking about the Cloak being Perfect. *shrug*

I guess I consider 'Operator Error' not to be an imperfection of the device itself. If you were to grant me that assumption, then a glitch or critical glitch is still possible, and certainly not GM Fiat.

then the same could be said about your "perfect shield" if you consider operator error, the tactical station could drop shields for whatever reason & lo & behold, no longer perfect.

I was really tired when I read this, but I do not see where Dolarnar is coming from.... that said my 2cents is this, get a damn good cloak, and decent shields, if one is exclusive to the other, install both, run the cloak until you absolutely need the shields. if this is impossible, (which itself is improbable) grab the cloak, better to avoid the fight all together then hope they do not get a lucky shot.

I was referring to the mention that the Perfect cloak could fail by Operator Error, which was seeming to make it inferior to the Perfect Shield, but the shield would suffer just as much chance of operator error so imo that is a wash in the whole conversation, it does not make either superior since Operator Error could happen to either mechanism.

Hal 9000: 'We are, by all practical definitions, foolproof and incapable of error.'

In other words: we should just let machines do all the shield/cloak operating. Maybe let them handle life support as well, as that's something you most definitely don't want to go wrong. And the sanitation, because no-one else wants the job. Remember, the computer is your friend. The computer just wants you to be happy. HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY.

I suppose that'd be correct, but I guess I consider operator error to be a greater potential issue for a Perfect Cloak than a Perfect Shield. Operator error with the shield would essentially mean dropping it, where operator error with a cloak could mean any sort of thing - being invisible is only an answer if you don't reveal yourself otherwise. But I'll grant you that if one is susceptible to operator error then the other must be.



***THIS MESSAGE WAS DEEMED SUBVERSIVE BY FRIEND COMPUTER, AND CONSEQUENTLY REMOVED. ALL HAIL FRIEND COMPUTER. ANY ATTEMPT TO RECOVER THE REDACTED MESSAGE BY CITIZENS OF GREEN CLEARANCE OR LOWER WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE TERMINATION***

back to somewhat of the OP topic, all I have to say is, that no matter how much Dakka you think you have, there is always someone, somewhere, with a HELL of a lot more.

If you spot a character sheet with significant amounts of Demolitions, Heavy Weapons, and associated knowledge skills, well that there might be one of those guys with a hell of a lot more.






-k

Yes, I'm beginning to see that.
Now I want to see what people would say if someone were to mention, in passing, that Ares is getting close to enough dakka. But I won't, because that would be trolling and trolling is BAD™

actual quote from a game session.
"what do we do? thats simple, we kill it with fire!"
"no, thats not an option, besides fire wouldn't work"
"oh, fire isnt enough? then USE EXPLOSIVES!".
he blew the building up... got the job down, but very non-subtly. their was many laughs, and many GM facepalms.

and no, I WILL NOT be drug into that argument about ares, I SHALL resist, I... I....

Blew up the building? Let me guess, they were hired to grease the Janitor?

somthing along those lines i beleive lol. was a bit back, when I first started playing, so i dont rightly remeber WHY we were their, just how we ENDED the need to be their.

Very few things are certain, but one thing is undeniable... You can NEVER have enuff dakka!

This guy is getting there, though.




-k

I have no Idea what I just watched. but not near enough dakka.. he couldnt even kill ALL the people.

I'm not quite sure what I just saw either, but it was damned amusing.

true, if a little to poorly animated in some areas lol

I believe it's a Bollywood variation on Terminator with some Agent Smithing from the Matrix.

Having previously seen (at least, large portions) of it, from what I understand, a scientist made a learning robot, which then stole some guy's identity/face, and attacked its creator.

And then duplicated itself, teamed up with itself, making bigger robots out of itself, all while the protagonist (the original guy who's face it stole) and the scientist try to inject shutdown code into the programming.

Yeah, that movie is awesome . .

So who has the most dakka?

The older brother of Chuck Norris, obviously.

That is what we call a paradox.

From which we conclude that dakka is not well-ordered on the set of all humans.

Indeed, there's always too much incoming and too little outgoing of it.

Gork and Mork

Dems grots ain't gots enuf dakka!

Just to make things a bit different.

Six armed troll with X4 Ballistic Shields and X2 LMG's.

Enough DAKKA for most and still a relative good dicepool combined with +24 Ballistic and +16 Impact.