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Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 08:29 AM) *
It is quite the other way around, Neraph. Such abilities are NOT intended for PC's, and they are even called out as such in the books. Therefore, it is common sense to not allow such things in play. You are, of course, free to ignore that common sense for a different playstyle. smile.gif

On re-reading the sidebar, I actually find that you are wrong. The text clearly states that the Twisted's abilities are "probably beyond the scope" of a normal table, but then goes on to say (almost to encourage) its exploration anyways. Then there is a disclaimer for inexperienced GMs, and lastly states that metamagics should be very rare to preserve game balance. Nowhere does it actually state that those abilities are not intended for PCs, just that allowing those for PCs could shift "game balance," which is a remarkably subjective theory (for example, what I would find par for the course TJ would find game-changingly bad).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 25 2012, 11:29 AM) *
On re-reading the sidebar, I actually find that you are wrong. The text clearly states that the Twisted's abilities are "probably beyond the scope" of a normal table, but then goes on to say (almost to encourage) its exploration anyways. Then there is a disclaimer for inexperienced GMs, and lastly states that metamagics should be very rare to preserve game balance. Nowhere does it actually state that those abilities are not intended for PCs, just that allowing those for PCs could shift "game balance," which is a remarkably subjective theory (for example, what I would find par for the course TJ would find game-changingly bad).


You should re-read it again...
A couple of relevant quoutes...

QUOTE
While many shadowrunners might qualify as borderline sociopaths and psychotics, roleplaying a truly demented individual with Awakened power at his fingertips is beyond the scope of the Shadowrun rules and the team nature of a typical game.

For example, blood magic is a ruthless practice that involves the cold-blooded murder of a living creature for fleeting empowerment. It is the kind of heinous act only a completely callous, unscrupulous, or highly-disturbed individual might commit. Despite some runner’s reputations, such activities are not conducive to a long career and acceptance in the shadows.

Additionally, the twisted gain access to obscure arts and unique metamagic techniques that can be potentially unbalancing in a player’s hands; gamemasters should consider carefully before allowing them into the game.


See, intrinsincly, they are not for Player Characters. IF you allow such themes into your game, you are well beyond the scope of the rules provided by the Setting. Says so right on the box, first sentence in fact. And if you read the entire sidebar, nowhere does it encourage such playstyles. It simply points out that they are not the norm, and that such themes are generally uncomfortable for most. Obviously, Neraph, you are not bothered by such themes. However, many other people are.
almost normal
I'd rather play a shadowmage anyway.
Halinn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 08:32 PM) *
A couple of relevant quoutes...

Hey! I resent being called a borderline sociopath!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 25 2012, 01:20 PM) *
Hey! I resent being called a borderline sociopath!


Heh... How about Full blown sociopath? smile.gif
Halinn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 10:45 PM) *
Heh... How about Full blown sociopath? smile.gif

Much better. Now stand back, I have kittens and puppies to sacrifice to my dark lords.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 25 2012, 03:11 PM) *
Much better. Now stand back, I have kittens and puppies to sacrifice to my dark lords.


I never understood the fascination with Kittens and Puppies. Sentient beings give so much more power. smile.gif
Patrick Goodman
Yeah, but watching the kittens and puppies getting sacrificed first primes the pump for real horror....
Halinn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 11:27 PM) *
I never understood the fascination with Kittens and Puppies. Sentient beings give so much more power. smile.gif

Stupid heroes try to jump in and save the easily acquired kittens and puppies. Then I can capture the stupid heroes and sacrifice them as the main dish, after the kitten/puppy appetizer.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Both points (Patrick and Halinn) make a lot of sense... Thank You. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 01:32 PM) *
You should re-read it again...
A couple of relevant quoutes...



See, intrinsincly, they are not for Player Characters. IF you allow such themes into your game, you are well beyond the scope of the rules provided by the Setting. Says so right on the box, first sentence in fact. And if you read the entire sidebar, nowhere does it encourage such playstyles. It simply points out that they are not the norm, and that such themes are generally uncomfortable for most. Obviously, Neraph, you are not bothered by such themes. However, many other people are.

No, those quotes state that it is outside the normal view of the game, not that they are not intended for use by PCs. You're making a logical jump to get to that conclusion. When it talks about the roleplay aspects of the Twisted is where it almost sounds like it is encouraging those options to be chosen.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 25 2012, 07:56 PM) *
No, those quotes state that it is outside the normal view of the game, not that they are not intended for use by PCs. You're making a logical jump to get to that conclusion. When it talks about the roleplay aspects of the Twisted is where it almost sounds like it is encouraging those options to be chosen.


The first sentence of that text states unambiguously that such characters are completely outside of the scope of the game and its rules. Therefore, it is unambiguous that they are not intended for PC's. It in no way ENCOURAGES their play. It offers it as an option for those who are interested in plumbing the depths of such characters, to see where they might lead, but they take great pains to show that it is outside the concepts of the game.

As always, do what you want, but please do not imply that it is a part of the game as written. The developers took great care to point out that it is not. smile.gif
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2012, 09:30 PM) *
The first sentence of that text states unambiguously that such characters are completely outside of the scope of the game and its rules. Therefore, it is unambiguous that they are not intended for PC's. It in no way ENCOURAGES their play. It offers it as an option for those who are interested in plumbing the depths of such characters, to see where they might lead, but they take great pains to show that it is outside the concepts of the game.

As always, do what you want, but please do not imply that it is a part of the game as written. The developers took great care to point out that it is not. smile.gif

Excuse me, but when the game allows for something then it is by definition a part of the game as written, which is exactly what that sidebar does. It has a disclaimer for roleplay reasons and for inexperienced GMs, but that in no way means it is not intended for players to use at all.
almost normal
This is why we can't have nice things.
Irion
Not intended for players does mean it is outside the scope of the rules if you make it available for players...
Thats just a silly discussion. Nothing in the book prevents you from inventing your own race or whatever...

Neraph
QUOTE (Irion @ Oct 26 2012, 03:14 AM) *
Not intended for players does mean it is outside the scope of the rules if you make it available for players...
Thats just a silly discussion. Nothing in the book prevents you from inventing your own race or whatever...

"Hey GMs, this stuff is weird and strong, so be careful about allowing it in your games" is different from "These abilities are not intended for player-use." They could be not intended through interpretation and assumption, but everyone knows what happens when you assume things.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 26 2012, 08:47 AM) *
They could be not intended through interpretation and assumption, but everyone knows what happens when you assume things.


Same goes the other Direction Neraph.
Patrick Goodman
C'mon, kids, we both know this isn't going to end well unless one or both of you take the high road and end it on your own. Could we just skip the unpleasant parts and go straight to "ending it on your own"? Please?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Oct 26 2012, 10:03 AM) *
C'mon, kids, we both know this isn't going to end well unless one or both of you take the high road and end it on your own. Could we just skip the unpleasant parts and go straight to "ending it on your own"? Please?


Done, Patrick. As always, thanks for your Wisdom. smile.gif
You are a Scholar and a Gentleman.
almost normal
QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 11 2012, 09:16 AM) *
For a little investment it's worse if you take a Type-0 Clone, give it bioware, Infect it with Vampirism, and then Inhabit it. That is the BBEG of a run I've been developing for a while. You've read my Inhabitation/Free/Ally spirit thread, right?

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