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Starmage21
The thread title says it all folks. I cant find a power or penetration listing for Renfield anywhere.

I assume that Penetration is 0 as a magical substance/drug, but can't find the power rating of the drug.


Now that we're past the tl;dr of the thread, this is for an infected character I've been playing for about a year. I've got excess essence, and the combat boosts of Renfield seem ideal, as it is easy to prevent addiction. Seems like a good thing to have handy for the other players who can reasonably expect to avoid addiction. Besides that, it gives me an excuse to use Essence Drain more and use my "kewl vampire powerz", which I've employed a total of once...in a year of play.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
I believe that if it is not lsited, Power is defaulted to 6. Can't remember the page, or which book that is in, though.
Will have to look.

Here it is... Arsenal, Page 73

QUOTE
The gamemaster determines the drug’s Power, as appropriate to its nature and effects. As a standard rule of [thumb], most street drugs have A Power of 6 [unless otherwise stated].


Additions are mine.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Renfield is statted in "Running Wild"
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Oct 13 2012, 08:37 AM) *
Renfield is statted in "Running Wild"


Awesome... Probably explains why I could not find it. smile.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2012, 10:46 AM) *
Awesome... Probably explains why I could not find it. smile.gif


Thanks Tymeaus, it is indeed statted in RW, but has no listed power or penetration, which is why I asked biggrin.gif
Neraph
It doesn't have a listed penetration/power because it is a drug and it is assumed that you actually want to come under its effects.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 13 2012, 11:03 AM) *
It doesn't have a listed penetration/power because it is a drug and it is assumed that you actually want to come under its effects.


See my quote (From Arsenal) several posts above. If it is not listed, Drugs are assumed to be Power 6. smile.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2012, 01:54 PM) *
See my quote (From Arsenal) several posts above. If it is not listed, Drugs are assumed to be Power 6. smile.gif


Indeed. Thank you.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2012, 01:54 PM) *
See my quote (From Arsenal) several posts above. If it is not listed, Drugs are assumed to be Power 6. smile.gif

Right. My post was for the sake of completion.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 14 2012, 12:16 AM) *
Right. My post was for the sake of completion.



Got it... smile.gif
Krishach
I actually have a character who I think I want to have start making this. I am unsure as to the social ramifications of the drug, or it's distribution: I couldn't see it being hawked alongside Deepweed and Novacoke by street vendors, but I feel it would also not be limited to only the "cult" followings. At the very least, it has to be given to newbies somehow. It's never appeared in any campaign I've played in or run.

Can anyone give an example of how this appeared in relative campaigns? Or how PCs might run it?
Neraph
There's a book that covers it, sort of. I can't remember exactly which one, but in one of the Dresden Files Harry roots out a nest of Black Court vampires and they have some Renfields.

I don't imagine it being a widely distributed drug. I see it as more of an insurance that an Infected would use on its mortal guards.
Patrick Goodman
/munches some Doritos, washes them down with some iced tea, and watches intently
Patrick Goodman
As to the OP's question: There's no Power or Penetration listed because it's not a toxin (at least as far as the rules are concerned). No drugs listed in SR4 have Power or Penetration listed. It's typically injected into unwilling victims, though it can be ingested as well if the subject is willing or is already hooked.

Renfield is also far too valuable and difficult to produce for it to be used randomly or as a street drug. It's a tool that vampires et al use to make vampiric pawns (called Igors in Europe, and Renfields in North America)...and to keep them in line. It takes the vampire time, effort, money, and a point of his own hard-stolen Essence to make a single dose of the stuff, so it's not going to be turning up on the street. It's purpose-built and made only when it's needed.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Krishach @ Oct 16 2012, 01:51 AM) *
I actually have a character who I think I want to have start making this. I am unsure as to the social ramifications of the drug, or it's distribution: I couldn't see it being hawked alongside Deepweed and Novacoke by street vendors, but I feel it would also not be limited to only the "cult" followings. At the very least, it has to be given to newbies somehow. It's never appeared in any campaign I've played in or run.

Can anyone give an example of how this appeared in relative campaigns? Or how PCs might run it?


I'm going to be making it myself, which is why I asked. I was just curious about the whole power/penetration stats.
Neraph
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Oct 16 2012, 01:53 PM) *
It takes the vampire time, effort, money, and a point of his own hard-stolen Essence to make a single dose of the stuff, so it's not going to be turning up on the street. It's purpose-built and made only when it's needed.

I didn't know there was a cost involved. The entry in Running Wild only mentioned that a point of Essence and a token amount of the vampire's blood is used in some form of ritual, although any specifics beyond that are not mentioned. It can be inferred from the text that the Enchanting skill is required, but again, any method of crafting it is not given.
Patrick Goodman
I think I detailed the ritual a little more somewhere, but in Running Wild I had some real word-count issues, and that was one of the casualties. I likewise haven't really had the time or opportunity to detail it elsewhere. I'll see what I can dig up sometime in the (hopefully) not-too-distant future, however.

As a rule, though, anytime you see the word "ritual" in Shadowrun, there should probably be a nuyen sign attached to it... wink.gif
Neraph
Technically "ritual" was my word. The text was "performs certain enchantments on it," which I could see as something along the lines of refining reagents or crafting binding materials.
Dolanar
The Renfield in this case is meant for the team of the Nosferatu (of which I am a part of) & he is hoping those who use it can pass the addiction test, if we use it.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 16 2012, 11:19 PM) *
The Renfield in this case is meant for the team of the Nosferatu (of which I am a part of) & he is hoping those who use it can pass the addiction test, if we use it.

Good luck with that...and be sure to read the description of the drug very carefully. You don't have to be addicted for it to really bleep you up....
Dolanar
I have actually considered not using it myself as the effects are arguably useful, I have a good Agi already, nuked Str & decent Int & 3 passes already so really a +1 to each of those will probably not aid me that much except in dire circumstances where that 1 dice could make or break me. If I reach that point....I think consequences are out the window.
Neraph
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Oct 17 2012, 07:59 AM) *
Good luck with that...and be sure to read the description of the drug very carefully. You don't have to be addicted for it to really bleep you up....

Not seeing it. The addiction threshold is 3 and is physically and mentally addictive, but there are no other downsides. Maybe you had other negatives that were taken out of the text for word limits or something?

QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 17 2012, 12:10 PM) *
I have actually considered not using it myself as the effects are arguably useful, I have a good Agi already, nuked Str & decent Int & 3 passes already so really a +1 to each of those will probably not aid me that much except in dire circumstances where that 1 dice could make or break me. If I reach that point....I think consequences are out the window.

That extra initiative pass won't stack with your two from being a Nosferatu, unless you're in House-Rule territory. Initiative Pass increases from any sources don't stack - all your IP increases must be from the same source.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 17 2012, 11:18 AM) *
Not seeing it. The addiction threshold is 3 and is physically and mentally addictive, but there are no other downsides. Maybe you had other negatives that were taken out of the text for word limits or something?

Hmmm. Looks like I might have misremembered. When I submitted, the Carrier (HMHVV I) and Essence Loss were by-products of simply using the drug, though they didn't become permanent until addiction occurred. That wording changed from what I remembered, but I should have double-checked before shooting off my mouth.

Anyway, I consider Essence Loss and being an HMHVV carrier a severe downside, but the way it's phrased...yeah, there's not much downside until you're hooked. I should have put something in there about how it makes the pawn fairly suggestible to the vampire that hooked him, but I didn't. Have to find a way to fix that one of these days.
Dolanar
generally speaking a boost to IP's from drugs will stack with most things as most wordings are "techno & magical" so a "natural" drug should technically stack IP's, though in this case it being a magical drug I can see it falling under magic.

as a note: I am not a nosferatu, but there is one in the party, my character is a simple Elf Adept.
Neraph
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Oct 17 2012, 01:15 PM) *
Hmmm. Looks like I might have misremembered. When I submitted, the Carrier (HMHVV I) and Essence Loss were by-products of simply using the drug, though they didn't become permanent until addiction occurred. That wording changed from what I remembered, but I should have double-checked before shooting off my mouth.

Anyway, I consider Essence Loss and being an HMHVV carrier a severe downside, but the way it's phrased...yeah, there's not much downside until you're hooked. I should have put something in there about how it makes the pawn fairly suggestible to the vampire that hooked him, but I didn't. Have to find a way to fix that one of these days.

Since I have such respect for you I will consider anything you say here on Renfield as errata.

So: Essence Loss is cumulative for time spend under the effects of the drug. Therefore if you are on the drug for 4 weeks (4 doses) you'd lose a point of Essence. This would actually encourage addiction as you could only be taking the drug for a maximum of six months' worth of time before you die. I'd also suggest a penalty against mind affecting effects or social skills against the Infected who created the dose you're on equal to -2 or your Addiction rating, whichever is greater.

How's that sound?
Dolanar
After reading the description, Essence loss only happens after you become addicted, if you can stave off the addiction there is no essence loss.
Neraph
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 17 2012, 01:59 PM) *
generally speaking a boost to IP's from drugs will stack with most things as most wordings are "techno & magical" so a "natural" drug should technically stack IP's, though in this case it being a magical drug I can see it falling under magic.

Re-reading the rules on the subject (I think this is the fourth or fifth time I've been corrected on this) you seem to be right. Synaptic Boosters and Wired Reflexes are mutually exclusive from any other Initiative effect, the Increase Reflexes spell states you can only have one version of that spell at a time, and Improved Reflexes adept ability cannot be combined with techno/magical means. So by the core books you can combine magic and drugs, but not technology in any form.

However, in Runner's Companion (page 79, Infected Attribute Modifier Table, asterisk at the bottom) it specifically states that the IP enhancement from being an Infected cannot stack with any other form of IP enhancements, which includes cyber/bio, magic, and drugs. So I was right in effect, but not in exact wording.

QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 17 2012, 05:07 PM) *
After reading the description, Essence loss only happens after you become addicted, if you can stave off the addiction there is no essence loss.

I already pointed that out, and the Goodman (who wrote the rules on it, by the way) has already stated the same.
Patrick Goodman
Let me ponder this. I might need more time than what I've currently got to respond.
Patrick Goodman
The more I think about this, the more I curse Carl Sargent and Marc Gascoigne.

First, I think I should have set the threshold higher, but that's a minor thing. It's designed to hook you from the word "Go," the way I see it. But the effects that it has...such a weird hodge-podge of stuff, some of which make sense, some of which don't. Some of the established effects and drawbacks last longer than the effect of the drug, which makes me want to gouge out my eyes with a spork sometimes. Or maybe Carl's and Marc's. Some of their ideas just didn't mesh well, IMO.

I've got a couple of paying gigs I have to deal with first, but I think I'm going to sit down and give this some serious thought and rework the description of the drug. Also the ritual used to create it. It won't be official, at least until I can find a project to pitch it for, but I'll see about getting it done sometime soonish.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Oct 19 2012, 10:57 AM) *
The more I think about this, the more I curse Carl Sargent and Marc Gascoigne.

First, I think I should have set the threshold higher, but that's a minor thing. It's designed to hook you from the word "Go," the way I see it. But the effects that it has...such a weird hodge-podge of stuff, some of which make sense, some of which don't. Some of the established effects and drawbacks last longer than the effect of the drug, which makes me want to gouge out my eyes with a spork sometimes. Or maybe Carl's and Marc's. Some of their ideas just didn't mesh well, IMO.

I've got a couple of paying gigs I have to deal with first, but I think I'm going to sit down and give this some serious thought and rework the description of the drug. Also the ritual used to create it. It won't be official, at least until I can find a project to pitch it for, but I'll see about getting it done sometime soonish.


That'd be cool. I know a lot of people have serious Infected-Hate (Otherwise known as "Dont-get-your-WoD-In-My-Shadowrun), but I enjoy them.

Having actually used them in play, there not anywhere near as broken as people would make them out to be via kneejerk.
Neraph
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Oct 19 2012, 03:55 PM) *
Having actually used them in play, there not anywhere near as broken as people would make them out to be via kneejerk.

Exactly, although in my case people are more hesitant to accept even a non-augmented human that I'd build.
almost normal
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Oct 19 2012, 04:55 PM) *
Having actually used them in play, there not anywhere near as broken as people would make them out to be via kneejerk.


Make regen available to any adept and infected powers prone to counterspelling, and you've solved my two complaints.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
Having actually used them in play, there not anywhere near as broken as people would make them out to be via kneejerk.
This always depends on the specifics. nyahnyah.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 22 2012, 11:55 AM) *
This always depends on the specifics. nyahnyah.gif


Absolutely. I'm only providing an anecdote. I'd have to abuse the heck out of the essence-drain->magic boost to get the same amount of functionality that the other PCs have now that we're 100+ karma into the game.
Dolanar
I dunno Star, you have about as much functionality in your area of expertise as Shade does in his, maybe slightly less due to his extreme specialization.
Neraph
QUOTE (almost normal @ Oct 22 2012, 11:22 AM) *
Make regen available to any adept and infected powers prone to counterspelling, and you've solved my two complaints.

Regeneration is already available to adepts - first take Cannibalize, then Power Bleed.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 22 2012, 02:09 PM) *
Regeneration is already available to adepts - first take Cannibalize, then Power Bleed.


Those abilities are Not for PC's. smile.gif
Neraph
No, those abilities are not intended for PCs, but can be allowed to them (Playing The Twisted sidebar, page 138, Street Magic).
Starmage21
Plant Spirits that have been invoked to great form get the Regeneration power. Have them possess whoever needs regenerated for a few minutes. Heal greivous wounds in minutes! biggrin.gif
Neraph
And Free Spirits, which can be accessed through Calling or summoning free spirits.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 23 2012, 08:26 AM) *
No, those abilities are not intended for PCs, but can be allowed to them (Playing The Twisted sidebar, page 138, Street Magic).


Potayto Potahto

Not For PC's. smile.gif
Neraph
Over simplified to an extreme, yes. It's not even an optional rule to allow it to PCs, but a disclaimer for GMs. You're letting your prejudice against it seep through.
almost normal
There are optional rules, and there are rules where the book goes out of its way to warn the GM against allowing a player to use.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 24 2012, 09:57 AM) *
Over simplified to an extreme, yes. It's not even an optional rule to allow it to PCs, but a disclaimer for GMs. You're letting your prejudice against it seep through.

You mistake Common Sense for Prejudice.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2012, 04:48 PM) *
You mistake Common Sense for Prejudice.

No, you are masking your prejudice as common sense. I see nothing wrong with the abilities that are in the Magical Threats section as being allowable for PCs. If a PC really wants a 1 million nuyen bounty, then have at it. It's a simple matter of giving the proper consequence for choices made by the PCs, nothing more. If the PC is remarkably good at being able to cover his/her tracks, then they'll have access to some pretty unique powers and the entire group can grow as roleplayers. It's a win-win.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 24 2012, 06:21 PM) *
No, you are masking your prejudice as common sense. I see nothing wrong with the abilities that are in the Magical Threats section as being allowable for PCs. If a PC really wants a 1 million nuyen bounty, then have at it. It's a simple matter of giving the proper consequence for choices made by the PCs, nothing more. If the PC is remarkably good at being able to cover his/her tracks, then they'll have access to some pretty unique powers and the entire group can grow as roleplayers. It's a win-win.


It is quite the other way around, Neraph. Such abilities are NOT intended for PC's, and they are even called out as such in the books. Therefore, it is common sense to not allow such things in play. You are, of course, free to ignore that common sense for a different playstyle. smile.gif
almost normal
It is wierd that they call blood mages out like that though. Vampires are strictly far worse, both in wanted status and in how much harm they do to a community, and how overpowered their abilities are.

I'm guessing blood mages were written by Americans, and the infected rules written by europeans always trying to one-up the american team.
Patrick Goodman
Hmmmmm...nope, I don't think so. The PC vampire rules were written by Bobby "Ancient History" Derie. Near as I can tell, the blood mage stuff was mostly written by Nigel Findley. The main contributions of the Europeans to SR vampirism were the nosferatu and the fomorian/fomoraig.
almost normal
Good ol Count Orlok. We had a discussion about him at the bar last night, focusing on Silent Films and German expressionist movies of the time. I found it odd that they were the only real vehicle in film to be able to express individual thought, yet no one could think of a silent film to actually utilize that ability.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Oct 25 2012, 08:00 AM) *
It is wierd that they call blood mages out like that though. Vampires are strictly far worse, both in wanted status and in how much harm they do to a community, and how overpowered their abilities are.

I'm guessing blood mages were written by Americans, and the infected rules written by europeans always trying to one-up the american team.


Which is why Infected PC's are also not allowed at our table. *shrug* smile.gif
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