Has anyone considered allowing different specialisations for skills rather than the standard "By weapon type" specialisations?
Examples from the title:
Rifles(Sniping) is used when sniping regardless of which rifle is being used. It is GM's disgression as to exactly what counts as sniping. In-general the character must remain stationary, preferably prone or in a stable firing position, and have performed at-least one aim action to gain the bonus dice. Some GMs may add additional requirements such-as additional actions.
Pistols(Flechette), or rather: specialisation by ammunition type. This specialisation implies extensive experience with particular ammunition types. This covers practicing to overcome disadvantages with the ammunition type (Poor penetration, explosive if mis-handled) and capitolising on the advantages associated with the ammunition type (where to hit a target to cause the greatest trauma with the round type). It also covers experience with the ballistic properties associated with the rounds (Trajectory, Speed, Penetration, ETC).
A character could even specialise in regular ammunition which implies inexperience with any other type of ammunition.
Do such specialisations seem reasonable? Does anyone have/Can anyone think-of other alternate specialisations?
Full Version: Rifles(Sniping) and Pistols(Flechette)
Personally, I find specialization by ammo type to be quite silly. Realistically, you'll see specialization for specific weapon classes, and even in extreme cases for specific guns, but not for ammunition types. As for sniping, I think your definition of sniping's a bit strict, but on the right track. Specializations for something like SMGs(CQB) seem potentially sane, though rather hackish, given that SR doesn't handle the whole mess terribly well under canon.
I'm liking the idea. im guess the by ammo type could also be applied to any of the small arms?
Sniping: Standing should count, as long as you don't move. Having spent at least one Take Aim action is a good descriptor too. I'd add that you must not be under fire -- if someone is firing at you or at the area you occupy during this CT or the prior CT, then you are not sniping. Overall, I like it, and have used it before in my games.
Flechette, at least how it's described for non-shotguns in SR canon, could probably count as a specialization. Most other ammunition types, however, shouldn't. Specialization in Explosive Rounds is pretty silly, as is APDS specialization. I do not think it's a good idea to assume people will automatically be aiming for less armored body parts if they've "specialized" in poorly penetrating rounds. According to the newest official stand, like it or not, that's a Called Shot, which instead might serve as a specialization.
Flechette, at least how it's described for non-shotguns in SR canon, could probably count as a specialization. Most other ammunition types, however, shouldn't. Specialization in Explosive Rounds is pretty silly, as is APDS specialization. I do not think it's a good idea to assume people will automatically be aiming for less armored body parts if they've "specialized" in poorly penetrating rounds. According to the newest official stand, like it or not, that's a Called Shot, which instead might serve as a specialization.
Ok, I have to disagree about sniping not applying if you're taking fire. If I can grab a suppressed M21, slap a scope on it, fast rope from a Little Bird to a downed Black Hawk, and proceed to snipe hundreds of people trying to rush me, I think it can apply.
Also, I am not even sure just what flechette is supposed to be per SR canon. Do the rounds explode in the barrel? Is this just a misnomer for frangible? I don't get it.
Also, I am not even sure just what flechette is supposed to be per SR canon. Do the rounds explode in the barrel? Is this just a misnomer for frangible? I don't get it.
CQB as a specialisation sounds good. When exactly would the specialisation not apply though? Also: What other specialisations could there be allong the CQB/Sniping progression? IIRC with only 2 specialisations it becomes cheaper to buy both specialisations rather than the basic skill up.
I could see shooting flechette ammunition having significantly different properties than normal ammunition. In-fact it would probably have a larger difference than between particular firearms. You would probably want to shoot people in different locations for maximum effect with gel and capsule rounds than you would with regular ammunition.
I could see shooting flechette ammunition having significantly different properties than normal ammunition. In-fact it would probably have a larger difference than between particular firearms. You would probably want to shoot people in different locations for maximum effect with gel and capsule rounds than you would with regular ammunition.
See, that's the problem. Defining what counts as CQB is something of a GM call, though if you read through my Canon Revision thread (likely now buried on the second page, as Austere was pretty much the only one who responded to it more than twice), you could define it as all combat taking place with 15m. I considered 20 or 25, but I'm not sure if that goes too far. It probably does, and it's a call people who've actually handled guns are far better at making than me.
As for other specializations, who knows. CQB and sniping are pretty solid, though I guess you could theoretically specialize in midrange combat. But with two specializations in a skill, you've paid enough to raise the base skill, which is why it never makes sense to take two specializations. The system could really use some work.
And you would aim for different spots with a gel round, but I'd suggest a non lethal specialization as opposed to a single round specialization. Single types are just too specific to be worth anything, and, really, when you're in the head of combat, you don't calculate where the liver is and then aim there. You shoot. You shoot again. And if he's still standing, you repeat until successful.
As for other specializations, who knows. CQB and sniping are pretty solid, though I guess you could theoretically specialize in midrange combat. But with two specializations in a skill, you've paid enough to raise the base skill, which is why it never makes sense to take two specializations. The system could really use some work.
And you would aim for different spots with a gel round, but I'd suggest a non lethal specialization as opposed to a single round specialization. Single types are just too specific to be worth anything, and, really, when you're in the head of combat, you don't calculate where the liver is and then aim there. You shoot. You shoot again. And if he's still standing, you repeat until successful.
I agree about taking fire not necessarily precluding sniping. Maybe only firing one shot? Definitely not moving, whether that be just standing or laying prone with the trusty loop sling. You can take fire and still place some well-aimed shots. I almost got set ablaze by my squad leader popping a smoke too close to me, but i still did really well on the combat course.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| If I can grab a suppressed M21, slap a scope on it, fast rope from a Little Bird to a downed Black Hawk, and proceed to snipe hundreds of people trying to rush me, I think it can apply. |
They were on a Black Hawk, and the BH actually landed to let them out.
I would not call that "sniping", since they were ducking in and out of cover, exchanging fire constantly. That's far from what I consider sniping.To me, sniping is the closest to a shooting range environment that you'll get in a war. It's when you don't have to actively preserve your own life constantly, allowing you to aim effectively at long ranges. The opposite of that is charging a place with guns blazing, or moving rapidly behind obstacles while occasionally taking a few quick shots without aiming much. When you are being fired at, aiming suddenly becames a heck of a lot more difficult. Shooting 500 meters away while under heavy fire is inhumanely difficult.
Maybe you could limit it so that having used Combat Pool in Dodge Tests during the CT in which the firing takes place or the preceding CT disqualifies from the sniping bonus. That way a ganger firing a few shots with a Predator at 90 meters in the general area won't screw up your aim, but suppressive fire certainly will.
| QUOTE |
| Also, I am not even sure just what flechette is supposed to be per SR canon. |
They're miracle nanobullets which hack people to death with tiny little swords. Either that, or they're bundles of sharp metal slivers (probably of random shapes by the description on p. 116 in SR3) that break into a cloud of slivers once they leave the barrel. Both explanations make as much sense, and with both a specialization is as reasonable as it is for a specific weapon.
For CQB range, I'd put it closer to 15m than 20-25m. 20-25 meters is often a really long way...
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| You can take fire and still place some well-aimed shots. I almost got set ablaze by my squad leader popping a smoke too close to me, but i still did really well on the combat course. |
I'd say that's not a particularly good comparison. Sure, it might distract many people, but I'm sure it's absolutely nothing compared to the complete panic that hits most human beings when they realize they could die any nanosecond unless they start doing something radical really fucking soon.
The people who don't panic when under fire are the kind of people I'd expect not to mind too much even if they were set on fire by said smoke grenade and had to finish the course with large 1st degree burns.
Being UNDER fire and ON fire are both really goddamn stressful situations. They both require focus and a cool head. Do you, Austere Emancipator, have any kind of military experience are are you merely speculating on something you've never been through and really don't know that much about?
Whoops. That's what I get for not having finished the book and relying on the movie for that scene. Ahem.
I guess it's fair to not call that sniping. Honestly, it can get very screwy when you want to nail down a solid definition in combat, which is why the game needs two skills: combat and non combat. Combat applies to everything in combat. Non combat applies to everything not combat. That would stop all the debates.
Seriously, I don't like the idea of creating extram mechanics for suppression fire interrupting sniping, etc. I'd much prefer that to be emergent, and if you want to stand up and aim, you go ahead do that, boy. We'll be down here with the cover and the bandages.
I guess it's fair to not call that sniping. Honestly, it can get very screwy when you want to nail down a solid definition in combat, which is why the game needs two skills: combat and non combat. Combat applies to everything in combat. Non combat applies to everything not combat. That would stop all the debates.
Seriously, I don't like the idea of creating extram mechanics for suppression fire interrupting sniping, etc. I'd much prefer that to be emergent, and if you want to stand up and aim, you go ahead do that, boy. We'll be down here with the cover and the bandages.
I'd like to state that some of us with no military experience nonetheless have experience with being on fire.
~J
~J
Yeah, not pleasant, is it?
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Do you, Austere Emancipator, have any kind of military experience are are you merely speculating on something you've never been through and really don't know that much about? |
(Déjà vu. Somehow I always get asked this...)
I spent 9 months in the holiday resort called "Finnish Marine Forces", yes. I'm still only speculating based on my reading of several accounts of battles. I've never been under live fire (other than from BB guns), and I've never been on fire long enough to get serious burns. I have, however, fired several different kinds of rifles at all kinds of targets in all kinds of conditions.
I have spoken with several soldiers who've been under live fire (although most are war veterans, and that was 60 years ago), and I've spoken with several specops soldiers and people who've represented Finland in different kinds of "soldier skill" competitions, such as for sniping. I am not simply talking out of my ass. That's a large part of it, but not all of it.
And you yourself said that you "almost got set ablaze", which I take to mean the smoke grenade was right next to you but did not set you on fire. That does not, in my mind, qualify as the same level of stress as the realization of having a really good chance of dying within the next 3 seconds.
What i was responding to was the immediate discounting of my little analogy. For some reason, a certain few of the posters here seem to focus not on the POINT someone is trying to make, but the way in which they try to make it, even when the point is fairly easy to discern. However, to remove ALL doubt...
Under Fire = Stressful
On Fire = Stressful
Under Fire and On Fire = Undesirable Conditions, but not EXCLUSIVE conditions. One CAN operate under them.
Under Fire = Stressful
On Fire = Stressful
Under Fire and On Fire = Undesirable Conditions, but not EXCLUSIVE conditions. One CAN operate under them.
I got your point, and I disagreed with it enough to call for the response that I gave. Like I already conceded, a few shots in your general direction might not be enough to break your concentration/aim or force movement. However, when you start using Combat Pool dice in Dodge tests, it becomes pretty obvious that you are no longer being completely still with your eye constantly peering through the scope.
And as for operating under them, of course you can. That was not the point, however. You can operate perfectly well in a battlefield environment, and still be incapable of doing any sniping.
And as for operating under them, of course you can. That was not the point, however. You can operate perfectly well in a battlefield environment, and still be incapable of doing any sniping.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
(Déjà vu. Somehow I always get asked this...) I spent 9 months in the holiday resort called "Finnish Marine Forces", yes. |
I take it that's a "No"? :verybigwink: J/k, AE
On topic, though ...
I think that a better way to handle sniping, in general, and CQB, even, would be to have them be complementary skills.
For Sniping:
How would a Rifles (Sniping) that be any different from "Free dice as long as you aren't getting shot at"? Wouldn't EVERY sniper take that as much as they could?
How is this any more realistic than simply having Rifles (Your Rifle) ? I believe that weapon specializations should reflect time devoted to a particular rifle (or perhaps by close-family-of-rifles). You spent a year training with that marine sniping unit (which seems, stats-wise, to be pretty much like a heavy sport rifle with sniper-rifle ranes than a PSG-1, for example), why not simply specialize in it? Sure, you probably already have at least a professional (or better) skill with rifles in general -- heck, given a Sharps' single-shot rifle, I'm sure you're STILL be quite formidable, but that's no reason to think that you're AS good with weapon A as you are with Weapon B.
I think that the situation you're describing is already handled by the aiming rules:
AIming is a simple action, and your aiming effects are ruined if you do anything else: I take this to include using combat pool for dodging. (That part IS mostly IMO, but I imagine others agree with me.)
in short: Take Aim + Rifles (Your Rifle) as a specialization seems to be quite balanced and already is in the game.
For CQB: I think that perhaps an applicable specialization of Small Unit Tactics might help (but applied to yourself, or something)? I don't remember how SUT works, but there is probably a way to apply it to yourself or teammates in a CQB situation. That could simply be a specialization of SUT -- SUT (CQB) , as opposed to SUT (jungle warfare), or something.
Concur. Good point, gknoy.
| QUOTE (gknoy) |
| Wouldn't EVERY sniper take that as much as they could? |
Some might even think it desirable for all snipers to take a skill specialization of Sniping.
If you consider Take Aim to be broken by using Combat Pool in Dodge tests, then the simple limiter of "Must have used at least 1 Take Aim" is enough, IMO. Some things must still be ruled on a case-by-case basis.
I actually quite like the idea of breaking aiming if you're forced to actively dodge.
To be honest I skipped part of this thread so if I repeat something I apologize. When I think of snipers I think of more than simple marksmanship. Any good solder whether they’re sniper trained or not know correct weapon control, good positions, and good trigger control. Snipers excel at shooting at very long distances. A typical solder is taught to engage at ranges were the weapon are still in a point blank trajectory for most of that engagement range. Out to 250 meters you can pretty much point and shoot at man size targets with the standard M-16 or similar rifle and if you have zeroed the weapon at 200 meter then you will still hit the targets any where from zero out to 250 maybe 300.
Snipers excel at shooting at ranges that require the ability to compensate for extreme bullet drop and compensating for wind effects. Shooting at a man size target out to 250 meter is pretty straight forward. As you start moving past 300 meters bullet drop and moderate wind will make you miss a man size target without compensating for it. Snipers excel at compensating for these extreme ranges. Snipers also learn a lot of other skills the normal solder does not but within the rifle skill I think that a sniper’s ability to adapt to extreme range is his real skill that differentiates them from the regular trained solder.
Just my $0.02
mcb
Snipers excel at shooting at ranges that require the ability to compensate for extreme bullet drop and compensating for wind effects. Shooting at a man size target out to 250 meter is pretty straight forward. As you start moving past 300 meters bullet drop and moderate wind will make you miss a man size target without compensating for it. Snipers excel at compensating for these extreme ranges. Snipers also learn a lot of other skills the normal solder does not but within the rifle skill I think that a sniper’s ability to adapt to extreme range is his real skill that differentiates them from the regular trained solder.
Just my $0.02
mcb
For what it's worth, the Marine Corps rifle range series does have a 200 and 300 yard line field of fire where you stand, sit, and lay prone, then a 500 yard line where you're prone. The SNIPER snipers go all the way back to 600 yards and further. Hitting a still target at 200 and 300 yards ain't that hard, assuming you remember to change the dope on your iron sights (a mistake i've made once or twice).
Just trying help out with what mcb said earlier.
Just trying help out with what mcb said earlier.
I don't claim any real knowledge on the subject, but the impression I get through books and browsing the web and such, sniper training is not so much about the gun-training, and more about the stealth/stalking/having the constitution to continuously see your bullets plow through heads.
As such, its not so much a rifle related skill, for SR at least.
As such, its not so much a rifle related skill, for SR at least.
While skill in stalking and sneaking is good, IIRC you really want to be able to control your breathing well and keep your hands steady, which probably would come onder the bracket of the skill itself.
I could see sniping as a separate skill. Possibly one that allows effectively complimentary skill dice, maybe even a centering against penelties style roll, under appropriate circumastances.
Another way it could work would be like marksmanship from SLA Industries the role-play game. That helps sniping by allowing you to take extra aim actions up-to your rank in the skill as-long-as you are in a good firing stance with a rest. I suppose that could be applied as Marksmanship Skill/X extra aims, where X depends on what situation you are in. With firing stance and rest, X=2. With firing stance and no rest, X=3. Without either, X=4.
I could see sniping as a separate skill. Possibly one that allows effectively complimentary skill dice, maybe even a centering against penelties style roll, under appropriate circumastances.
Another way it could work would be like marksmanship from SLA Industries the role-play game. That helps sniping by allowing you to take extra aim actions up-to your rank in the skill as-long-as you are in a good firing stance with a rest. I suppose that could be applied as Marksmanship Skill/X extra aims, where X depends on what situation you are in. With firing stance and rest, X=2. With firing stance and no rest, X=3. Without either, X=4.
If "Sniping" is a separate skill, then you're opening the door for all kinds of skill that provide complementary dice to all kinds of actions. "Breaking & Entering" is one. "Tactical Assault" might be another. "Ambushing" perhaps? Etc etc. If you want all those skills in your game, no problem. I'm just getting a similar vibe from this Sniping skill as from those discussions about a separate "Ninja" skill...
Yeah, a sniper's highest skill rating could easily be in something other than Rifle. Stealth is often more important in that line of work. But a Rifle/Sniping specialization still makes sense. Pistol is not a cop's most important skill, but he might still have a Pistol/(Own pistol model) specialization.
And while we're sharing sniper stories: As a rest for a sniper rifle, a small bag of sand is far better than a bipod. Keep along a sturdy sock and fill it with dirt/sand on site for that purpose.
Yeah, a sniper's highest skill rating could easily be in something other than Rifle. Stealth is often more important in that line of work. But a Rifle/Sniping specialization still makes sense. Pistol is not a cop's most important skill, but he might still have a Pistol/(Own pistol model) specialization.
And while we're sharing sniper stories: As a rest for a sniper rifle, a small bag of sand is far better than a bipod. Keep along a sturdy sock and fill it with dirt/sand on site for that purpose.
I consider any SA/SS weapon a sniperable weapon. For example, an M16 isn't really that much difficult/different to snipe with than an SSG other than range considerations. A dedicated sniper rifle has a longer range, but you could easily use the skills you developed while training with a sniper rifle with an assault rifle provided you fire in semi auto.
In fact, I was training as a sniper before I tore a muscle. After my accident and consequently out-of-course, I was retrained as an MG gunner. I found that I could regularly one hit one kill a figure 15 (head only) at 800m with my GPMG, provided I turned the gas regulator down.
Oh, for your info, I find a bipod + sandbag combo to be much better than any sock...
In fact, I was training as a sniper before I tore a muscle. After my accident and consequently out-of-course, I was retrained as an MG gunner. I found that I could regularly one hit one kill a figure 15 (head only) at 800m with my GPMG, provided I turned the gas regulator down.
Oh, for your info, I find a bipod + sandbag combo to be much better than any sock...
Where you draw the line for weapons allowed with Rifle/Sniping obviously depends on where the line between Rifles and other weapons is drawn in your games. In my games, Rifle/Sniping would allow using anything between SMGs and shotguns firing slugs or anti-material rifles.
In an otherwise canon game, Rifle/Sniping could not possibly be used with an Assault Rifle on SA, because that's a separate skill altogether. You'd then need Assault Rifle/Sniping. The problem is in the silly separation of the firearm skills, not in this specific suggestion for a house rule. (Yes toturi, I hear you, but we just have to agree to disagree.
)
In an otherwise canon game, Rifle/Sniping could not possibly be used with an Assault Rifle on SA, because that's a separate skill altogether. You'd then need Assault Rifle/Sniping. The problem is in the silly separation of the firearm skills, not in this specific suggestion for a house rule. (Yes toturi, I hear you, but we just have to agree to disagree.
)| QUOTE (toturi) |
| I found that I could regularly one hit one kill a figure 15 (head only) at 800m with my GPMG, provided I turned the gas regulator down. |
That's one heck of a GPMG then. Hitting rounds within a 4" radius circle (20cm in diameter, the minimum you'd need to hit a head without any human error whatsoever) is the equivalent of under 0.45 MoA accuracy. That'd be really good even for a semi-auto sniper rifle at 100 meters.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Oh, for your info, I find a bipod + sandbag combo to be much better than any sock... |
Accuracy-wise, the bipod is superfluous there. The rifle should rest squarely on the sandbag. The bipod might help with other things, but the rifle should not rest on it when firing.
And I mentioned a sock instead of a sandbag, because most people don't want to lug a large bag with them and spend 5 minutes shoveling it full of sand or dirt before firing. A sock is slightly more practical when you're not firing from a fortified defensive position.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
That's one heck of a GPMG then. Hitting rounds within a 4" radius circle (20cm in diameter, the minimum you'd need to hit a head without any human error whatsoever) is the equivalent of under 0.45 MoA accuracy. That'd be really good even for a semi-auto sniper rifle at 100 meters. |
Allow me to clarify: "Regularly" was about 75%, inclusive of possible ricochets off the ground(the target was mounted about 30cm off the ground) and grazes. And a damn sight better than 10-20% most other gunners where averaging on their full body figures wth bursts. But the point was to illustrate that you could snipe with just about any firearm, not just a rifle or rifle-type weapon.
Personally, I wouldn't call that sniping, per se. That's just extremely precise fire.
Anyway, Austere, I figured I might as well give it a shot: you have a system for fixing canon's stupid take on something like Rifles(Sniping) not applying to Assault Rifles(Sniping)?
Anyway, Austere, I figured I might as well give it a shot: you have a system for fixing canon's stupid take on something like Rifles(Sniping) not applying to Assault Rifles(Sniping)?
Yes. Allow everything between the types of weapons I mentioned to be fired with the same skill Rifles. Takes care of a whole lot of problems.
This is pushing toward 2nd edition Firearms skill.
The line has to be drawn somewhere, and someone will always disapprove.
The line has to be drawn somewhere, and someone will always disapprove.
It does however make the skill somewhat more useful than many others as it's highly useful in both CQB and for Sniping. Then-again you could also lump pistols and SMGs together to maintain balance.
Considering what the Sorcery and Conjuring skills can do I don't think it would be that broken.
Considering what the Sorcery and Conjuring skills can do I don't think it would be that broken.
Yes, many will disapprove where ever you draw the line. I happen to immensely enjoy having the line drawn where I said it is in my games. I'm not saying canon should be changed to that or anything. It happens to be my house rule, and one which works out wonderfully and without any hitches for me.
Austere: no skill allowances for the vast difference in firing an M177 and an M24?
Still, Lilt has a point; it may be imprecise, but at least it fucks mundanes less.
Still, Lilt has a point; it may be imprecise, but at least it fucks mundanes less.
Do you also allow shotguns to be used with the rifles skill?
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Austere: no skill allowances for the vast difference in firing an M177 and an M24? |
No more than you get between giving CPR and doing neural surgery. In other words: No.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Do you also allow shotguns to be used with the rifles skill? |
As I mentioned, if they fire slugs they use Rifle. If you have a Shotgun skill, you can fire them with either shot or slugs without penalties. Defaulting between Shotgun and Rifle is a whole +1 TN.
Going from rifle to shotgun (assuming were talking about shotshells here) is a lot easier IMHO than going the other way. From personal experience, I have been shooting a lot of sporting clays trap and skeet for the past two years or so. I have put several thousand rounds through my shotguns in that time. But at present I am getting ready for an Elk hunting trip this fall and I find it takes a bit more focus on my breathing and trigger control than it did before I got serious into sporting clays. Sure both weapon function very similar but the techniques used to shooting moving targets with a shotgun as 10-60 yards is a lot different then trying to hit a small spot at 250 yard with a high power rifle. Shotgun focuses on follow through and good form where rifle require the addition of good breathe control and a smooth trigger squeeze. With shotguns a firm crisp pull on the trigger is quite adequate. It’s a lot easier to step off the rifle range and still shot a good round of skeet then it is to go from the skeet range and shoot a good group with your rifle. Whether that difference is enough to be seen in the game system is arguable. You might make it +1 defaulting from rifle to shotgun but +2 when defaulting from shotgun to rifle. Just an idea spawned from my resent experience take it or leave it.
mcb
mcb
You may well be right, there might be a difference in how easy it is to go between the two from shotgun to rifle and vice versa. However, when CPR still uses the same skill as neural surgery, I do not feel the need to use special rules for two different kinds of Defaulting. Simply having 2 kinds of Defaulting groups, +1s and +2s, might be called too complex by some.
Just think what the skill lists would look like if there were Dumpshocker MDs than hunters/gun aficionados...
Simply having 2 kinds of Defaulting groups, +1s and +2s, might be called too complex by some.Just think what the skill lists would look like if there were Dumpshocker MDs than hunters/gun aficionados...
Personally, I'd love to see biotech split up into various medical practices, but ah well. Same for magic's two sole skills.
Austere: ever considered a way to keep the various weapon skills but still keep it realistic? I'd like to see some variety in skills, but I don't like the way canon has it now.
Austere: ever considered a way to keep the various weapon skills but still keep it realistic? I'd like to see some variety in skills, but I don't like the way canon has it now.
I don't know if this came up yet, but would this be the same as "Edged Weapons (slashing)" and "Edged Weapons (Stabbing)" or the Cyber Implant Combat/Polearm equivalent?
Only if you can differentiate between Slashing and Stabbing in game terms. It seems we can differentiate between Sniping and other kinds of shooting.
Nope, I have never considered that, Arethusa. No need, when changing the skills works so much better.
If you want to split up all the skills into sub-groups, then you should do it with every single skill. Then you might also want to make skills cheaper, allow more at all levels with Priorities, make them 1BP only with the BP system, and make improving them with Karma cheaper. The way SR is currently balanced, the level of separation that firearms see now is not sensible in all skills (and IMO it's not sensible even with firearms, but that goes without saying I guess).
Nope, I have never considered that, Arethusa. No need, when changing the skills works so much better.
If you want to split up all the skills into sub-groups, then you should do it with every single skill. Then you might also want to make skills cheaper, allow more at all levels with Priorities, make them 1BP only with the BP system, and make improving them with Karma cheaper. The way SR is currently balanced, the level of separation that firearms see now is not sensible in all skills (and IMO it's not sensible even with firearms, but that goes without saying I guess).
Before Cannon Companion you were allowed to specialize in Unarmed Combat by body part. I see no difference.
As for after the CC, may be it should be a Manuver.
As for after the CC, may be it should be a Manuver.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| If you want to split up all the skills into sub-groups, then you should do it with every single skill. Then you might also want to make skills cheaper, allow more at all levels with Priorities, make them 1BP only with the BP system, and make improving them with Karma cheaper. The way SR is currently balanced, the level of separation that firearms see now is not sensible in all skills (and IMO it's not sensible even with firearms, but that goes without saying I guess). |
Now you're talking about massive reworking. I've been an advocate of that all along. I agree with the idea that you have to lower the point cost or increase the number of points you can spend. But then agian you'd have to rework the entire creation process. AND make sure that everone (Mage, Shiftes, etc) has a fair shake at it.
It would have to be a skill set similar to the Pallidum System.
I don't want to get into that kind of massive reworking, though, so I want the firearms skills in my games to be a compromise between game balance, realism and the example of skills like Electronics, Biotech and Computers.
The breakdown I'm considering switching to is a 'smallarm' skill that coveres pistols and SMG, and a 'longarm' skill that covers rifles/shotguns to GPMGs... The specialties of these skills would be the current SR weapon skills.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 20 2004, 06:34 AM) |
| But a Rifle/Sniping specialization still makes sense. Pistol is not a cop's most important skill, but he might still have a Pistol/(Own pistol model) specialization. |
I think you're contradicting yourself. [edit](Actuially, this is really harsh, I'm sorry -- I didn't mean it the way it sounded, lol.[/edit]
In the cop's case, he's taking a weapon-specific specialization, whereas if we allowed Rifles/Sniping, we'd have a SITUATION-specific specialization, which I dont think is a good thing in the case of weapon skills.
I believethat any character with 6+ dice in rifles counts as a sniper, if they choose to play it as such. Even more so if they take the 5/7 specializtion in the rifle of their choice.
Let's face it, 9S damage staged up with the same # of successes as yoru avg sam probably gets with any given shot? Count me in.
Add in to the rifle skill the stealth skills to get him there ... maybe use Disguise as a complementary skill (ghillie suit, and the little hidden sniper perches)...
A good way, IMO, to represent a sniper's skill at LONG ranges would be to use Ballistics as a complementary knowledge skill. I've read significant portions of the US army sniper handbook, and a LOT of it is tables of elevations/ranges/wind shears, etc.
I think that the ballistics knowledge (perhaps specialized ior even restricted by rifle class?) skill, plus perhaps things like "wind direction judgement", etc, (all very important at long and extreme ranges) would be VERY useful rolled in as complemetnary skill to ANY rifles test where they are shooting at long or extreme range, and have spent at least one action Aiming.
Perhaps make them spent a complex action before firing at the target to represent setting sights/judging distance, even ...
So then you might see a sniper with skills as follows:
Rifles (Remington 950) SWS 5 (7)
// (fictional sniper rifle based on a sport rifle chassis,
// probably with sniper ranges to represent custom work)
Stealth 6
Disguise 5 (self) 7
Ballistics 6 // knowledge skill
(and perhaps Wind Direction Judgement 4 or 5?)
This sniper would have a Remington 950 (modified for extra long range and accuracy) with a maxed out scope. They'd have a ghillie suit, and have mad sneaking skills.
When shooting at close ranges, or anywhere they haven't had time to plan a firing solution (judge distance, wind, etc), they would make attacks using solely their Rifles(Remington) skill -- 7 dice. Plus combat pool, probably.
When aiming at distance, and/or with a firing solution planned, the sniper would be able to roll 7 dice, + combat pool, + 6 (or 10, depending) complementary dice. This means they would be able to get more successes than Joe Non-Sniper rifleman, even if they didn't spend a lot of time reducing the target # through aiming.
That's basically 3-5 extra dice for an attack. Which is pretty nice, since that's probably 2 extra successes vs a TN of 4 (long range base ...
). Which does well to represent a sniper's ability to hit where it hurtsHere's an alternate idea (that might be broken, balance-wise):
Let them spend an action to make a ballsitics, wind judgement, and etc test; this gives them a firing solution (probably the wrong term but whatever
). Now, as logn as they are firing at targets in the same general vicinity as their intended target, they get -(N/2) to their TN for each aimign action, where N is the number of successes they made on their ballistics test.That sounds potentially broken, though ... hm... certainly much worse than complemetnary attack dice, IMO. And harder to keep track of, etc.
As if snipers needed to be more bad-ass.
That said, I'd love to play a character like this. =D
But then you're back to those skills costing more for a balanced set.
Firearms(SR1)-->Assault Rifles, Rifels, Pistols, Shotguns, SMGs(SR3)-->[same as before]+ Revolvers, Bolt Action and add the specializations "Sniping," "Ammo Type (if for nothing else then buckshot and slug in Shotgun)
I guess I feel its a "if it's not broke, don't fix it." situation.
Firearms(SR1)-->Assault Rifles, Rifels, Pistols, Shotguns, SMGs(SR3)-->[same as before]+ Revolvers, Bolt Action and add the specializations "Sniping," "Ammo Type (if for nothing else then buckshot and slug in Shotgun)
I guess I feel its a "if it's not broke, don't fix it." situation.
| QUOTE (gknoy) |
| Let's face it, 9S damage staged up with the same # of successes as yoru avg sam probably gets with any given shot? Count me in. |
What does this have to do with the Sniping specialization of the Rifle skill, specifically? I understand that people don't like snipers in RPGs. I don't see how this specialization gives them an extra edge. A sniper can already specialize in Rifle/Barrett Model 121, and will be just as awful.
An Army sniper would most likely have a specialization in Rifle by rifle model, just like you did with your example. That's fine, because they might have to use their gun in other circumstances than sniping, and they are unlikely to use any other gun. This would not be changed by introducing a Rifle/Sniping specialization in any way.
The Sniping specialization might be used by a criminal or similar character who has no guarantee of always having a rifle of the same model. I cannot see how that'd make them any more powerful than a sniper with a Rifle/Model spec. They are just as limited, just in a different way.
I don't like the idea of complementaries to combat skills. Some do, I can understand that. Somehow I've got a feeling that all characters would then use their free Knowledge skill points on Ballistics, because it gives such a huge advantage compared to just about any other Knowledge skill.
kevyn668: Was that directed at me, or someone else? If me, then I have no idea what you're talking about. For small arms, I use only Pistols and Rifles, and then skills like Shotguns, SMGs and MGs if a player really wants that for their character. Crusher Bob's Small Arm/Long Arm suggestion/house rule is very close to my system, but slightly more simplified.
For small arms, I use only Pistols and Rifles, and then skills like Shotguns, SMGs and MGs if a player really wants that for their character. Crusher Bob's Small Arm/Long Arm suggestion/house rule is very close to my system, but slightly more simplified.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
What does this have to do with the Sniping specialization of the Rifle skill, specifically? I understand that people don't like snipers in RPGs. I don't see how this specialization gives them an extra edge. A sniper can already specialize in Rifle/Barrett Model 121, and will be just as awful. ... I cannot see how that'd make [a criminal spec'ed in Sniping] any more powerful than a sniper with a Rifle/Model spec. They are just as limited, just in a different way. |
Ah; I didn't mean to say I didn't like snipers. I was simply trying to find a solution that already fit within the rules (mostly -- not sure how many GMs allwo complementary skills for combat tests, but I think it's OK), as far as the way I interpret them. I just feel that "sniping' as a specialization just ... doesn't fit. or, it sortof does, except that I don't see enough good argument for why it is necessary -- how is it not already covered by other things? (aiming, scopes, _skill_?)
This specialization doesn't give them an extra edge, per se, it was just that I don't feel that "Sniping" fits well with the way specializations for weapon skills are done in the book. *shrugs*
You're VERY right though about it being limiting. Not many snipers will want to be without their extra dice when in CQB.
| QUOTE |
| I don't like the idea of complementaries to combat skills. Some do, I can understand that. Somehow I've got a feeling that all characters would then use their free Knowledge skill points on Ballistics, because it gives such a huge advantage compared to just about any other Knowledge skill. |
Interesting. As for all characters taking it -- I think that coudl be handled easily by a GM saying "No, your character doesn't have enough background to warrant Ballistics (6)."
I think that it's a good way to make knowledge skills useful, and represent a sniper's extra training and skill, in a way other than simply saying they have X dice in rifles skill (which I see as equally valid, btw).
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