I can't find the page for rules about layering armor, and just a single sentence that only the highest armor a player is wearing applies... But Chummer doesn't seem to be doing that math properly, according to that sentence (p160, SR4a).

Here's what the player has, after buying Packs from the Runner's Kit, and adding it into Chummer:

Dermal Plate II (+2/2)
Form-fitting Body Armor (6/2)
Armor Vest (6/4)
Armor Jacket (8/6)

Chummer totals that up to 16/10, but that one sentence in the core book means it should be 10/8 (jacket being the highest armor rating, plus dermal plating's armor rating modifier). If I do just the Jacket and Vest, Chummer puts out the right number of 10/8. The Packs book, on p 22 (under multi-shooter) says that it provides (6/2) points of armor, not an armor ~bonus~.

Am I making this too complicated, or is that a misprint in the Packs booklet? I'm trying to make sure this guy is ready to go for our first real run tomorrow, by doing an audit at the GM's request. (I have SR experience from older editions, so... yea... audit duty. But I can't complain. It's helping me learn the new edition better than if I just read the sections I needed for my character.)

Ffba stacks with other armour. The math checks out by my count.

Vest doesn't stack with Jacket, everything else works. So 16/10 is correct and you need a Body of (8+6/2)/2=6 to not be encumbered. If you still want to wear the vest, while it not giving any bonus, you need a body of 9.

16/10 is correct. It would not be counting the vest, as that piece is not one that stacks. I hope that the character has at least a 6 Body though since the highest value is 11 for encumbrance after FFBA reduction. (3 for FFBA encumbrance, 8 for armor jacket--and that is assuming dropping the vest since it's doing nothing for the character but adding another 6 to encumbrance)

And you were so close to that rule you were looking for. Reprinted for your viewing pleasure:

The character has a Body attribute of 9 - he's a cybered Troll - so he has no encumbrance, since the threshold is 18. Correct?

..trolls natural dermal deposit add another 1/1...
max armor for BOD 9 would be 22/22..(Trolls natural do not count, and FFBA is counted as half when counting encumberance penalty..)
..former line DO NOT count freakish numbers ( Troll w/ multiple cyberlimbs and Heavy Military Grade Armor for exp..)
i would advise your friend for buying Helmet (1/2) or Ballistic Mask (2/1) (WAR!) and combining it with Death mask (0/1) (Attitude) (what works as gas mask) (= 2/2)
also PPP Vitals protection,shin guards,forearm guards, leg & arms casings (discreet version)(Arsenal) would rise the armor rating..

The BLUE numbers all stack.

The RED numbers do not - but add 1:1 to your encumbrance.

This outfit gives you 17/11 armor, but encumbers you as if it were 17/9 (half of the FF, all of the Dermal Plate, and your Troll +1/+1 do not contribute to encumbrance; all of the Jacket and Vest do)..

Let me be 100% clear: the Armor Vest is worse than useless. All it does is (almost) encumber you, it adds nothing to your armor ratings.

By the way, you could get another +1/+1, if you add Gel-Packs to that jacket. Bone Lacing, kevlar or ceramic, would also help out.

SecureTech PPP Systems would also help.

SoftWeave on the Armor Jacket would be good too.

True, very true. Also, a Ballistic Mask kept in a (very large) pocket, could be hastily donned in a firefight, as well.

So it oculd be:

Dermal Plate II (+2/+2)
Form-fitting Body Armor (+6/+2)
Armor Jacket [with Gel Packs] (9/7)
Troll dermal deposits (+1/+1)
Securetech PPP Forearm Guards (+0/+1)
Securetech PPP Leg & Arm Casings (+1/+1)
Securetech PPP Shin Guards (+0/+1)
Securetech PPP Vitals Protector (+1/+1)
Ballistic Mask (+2/+1)
--------------------------------------------------
TOTAL ARMOR RATING: 22/17
TOTAL ENCUMBRANCE: 15/13 (versus 18/18 max)


He'sa 9-body Troll. Completely doesn't need it.

I know how the armor stack rules apply, but I've always wondered why its Body that's used to determine encumberance and not Strength.

*shrug* I believe it's because Body generally indicates the character's own bulk.

For my personal houserule, I prefer Body+Strength, as a measure of both physical strength, and personal physical bulk, in equal measure.

You forgot Delta Amyloid Fibers (Attitude), combined with Softweave, in the Jacket... you would have an additional +3 Ballistic, +1 Impact (so 25/18). Softweave would reduce that encumberance by strength. *shrug*

You forgot Delta Amyloid Fibers (Attitude),
No he didn't
Delta Amyloid and the other 2 Mods are only for Armored Clothing (4/0) and the clothing Combinations. Not for the heavy Armored Jacked

with a lighter Dance
medicineman

Indeed... Missed that one when I skimmed it. I thought of it becasue I rarely wear armors as crass as an Armored Jacket and did not realize the restriction.
Thanks Medicineman.

I wish I could convince Herolab of that. As far as I've been able to determine it reads it as literally 'clothing' and 'armoured clothing', and anything else that might qualify (suits, globetrotter outfits ect) can't get it.

This irks me, as I wanted to create an armoured Ghillie Suit with massage liners and colour changing and it kept complaining about errors
Not that it stopped me, I just prefer to have everything unquestionably legit and the error message throws doubt on it.

A Lined Coat, Armored Jacket and Armored Vest are ALL clothing, and to rule otherwise just to keep players from putting Delta Amyloid on them is just stupid, IMO.

Yes, they are clothing. But they are nor Clothing.

That is to say: they are wearable things, but not the KIND of wearable things that Delta Amyloid (and it's two counterparts) is supposed to be applicable to.

IMO, that is just rules lawyering, but for the purpose of reducing player options--which is BAD. It's just as bad as the rules lawyering for the purpose of ending up with "uber-character", actually worse since it's generally going to be done by the GM.

As anyone would readily state on this board, I am a die-hard Rules Lawyer of the N-th Degree, and I have to state that by the exact wording on Delta-Amyloid it can only be added to normal clothing (0/0) or the Armored Clothing (4/0) materials from page 327 of SR4A, exactly as the text on page 160 of Attitude states.

I would count the various clothing Lines as Clothing/Armored Clothing for the purposes of the Attitude Modifications. I WOULD draw the line at Actual Armor, however. *shrug. Yes, it is a bit arbitrary, but *shrug*...

So You're saying that the Developers from CGL are stupid ?
Because its their Rules and not my Interpretation (I would've added an ImO than )


and You're right with that
normal Clothing, armored Clothing (4/0) and the Clothing Lines from the Arsenal are viable to the Mods from Attitude

with an Interpretations Dance
Medicineman

Whereas I believe the intent would be for anything that isn't hard-plated armor (like Full Body Armor, Military Armor, Security Armor and the other full suits like those) to be applicable for the infusions. And hey look, all of those have the highest ballistic and impact ratings. Now, FFBA and the PPP stuff wouldn't be, but, well, there'd be little purpose in putting them on those anyway--just like I wouldn't bother with SoftWeave on those even if it were being allowed by the GM, so little encumbrance on those anyway.

(a) no, it's not rules-lawyering, it's RTFMing.

(b) Restricting player options is not automatically and universally "BAD". Vry often it's very very GOOD.


GMs don't rules-layer. GMs set the rules. There's no trying to weasel-word for advantage involved; if a GM says "this is my interpretation of the Rules, and So Shall It Be" ... then, well, that's not rules-lawyering; it's just being the GM.

As GM, I could even decree that Delta-Amyloid is not available at all, which is even MORE restrictive than the RAW "Armored clothing or normal clothing only". That's still not rules-lawyering, it's "using a house rule".

Just like the "any nonrigid armor can use Infusions" thing you prefer, would be (if you were the GM).

"House rules" != "rules lawyering".






And yet, all those items you just listed, are every bit as much "clothing" as a Lined Coat.

So, you see, even you are drawing entirely arbitrary lines between which options a player can excercise, and which she cannot.

No, I am saying to include everything that could be considered everyday attire clothing (yes, an Armored Vest, Armored Jacket and Lined Coat can be everyday wear in most areas that aren't some high falootin' fancy dress corp sector). Basically this would mainly exclude the 'armors' generally seen on police/SWAT and/or military types, though it would also exclude the stuff worn for protection like the biker armor and the urban explorer suit (none of which you're likely to find someone who would in any way claim to be clothing by any definition other than it keeps you from being nude).

That's not what you originally said. Yous aid "clothing", not "everyday attire".

And regardless: you're still doing the very thing you decry, "limiting options". The only difference is, you would draw the line in a different place than I would. Yet, apparently I'm the badguy? :rolleyes:

Removed by poster.

This all seems very silly. Are you trying to tell me that Light Armor Clothing and Heavy Armor Clothing from the Globetrotter line, in a section headed Armor Clothing, aren't Armor Clothing?

In order to say Armored Jacket, Armored Vest and Lined Coat aren't they would have to. Sounds pretty dumb, doesn't it?

It seems to me the intent is to add armor to clothing that didn't come with it preinstalled. I think it's arbitrary that Armor Clothing is allowed and no other type of clothing that has armor can accept it. IMO, the purpose is to allow characters to wear scene appropriate attire (a la page 174 Attitude) and still wear some armor. As such, I would lean towards disallowing it for all clothing that has armor. Everything is like trying to wear two armor jackets; it grants no benefit and just encumbers you. Otherwise, if you allow it for the lined coat, do you allow it for the FFBA too?


I take you believe that since the Arsenal section introducing the clothing lines is titled armor clothing, that they are included? The Attitude entry appears to call out armor clothing by name and SR4A page number. It seems strange that the developers would exclude a Lined Coat, but include Mortimer of London's Greatcoat Line.

You're totally right that its strange, I'm by no way for this Rule,but its (unfortunately ) RAW
its even very Unbalanced because You could add Delta Amyloid to each piece of a Suit and create (f.E.Vashon Island Rheingold with Cloak 3/2, Shirt 1/0 & Trousers 1/1 Total 5/3 ,so with Delta Amyloid on each Piece--> 14/6) something completely imbalanced , but by RAW you can't add it to a Lined Coat

with an added Dance
Medicineman

I've always ruled that in my game you just add it to the total rating of the outfit as opposed to each piece.

That's probably a houserule, mind, but that's definitely one I feel not guilt about.

The reason people think the Armor Clothing lines from Arsenal count is that Jason Hardy said so. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1055225

How we do it as well... SO the Vashon 5/3 becomes Delta-Amyloid enhanced Vashon at 8/4

Well, now that we're comparing houserules ... I think I'd allow infusions like D-A to be applied to any piece of clothing or armor that had no armor rating higher than 4, and:

• Can be applied to piecemeal outfits (e.g., Synergist business suit)
• a character may only benefit from an infusion ONCE at a time (wearing two D-A infused items, doesn't give you the benefits on both items).
• FFBA is excluded;
• Securetech PPP is excluded;
• Helmets are excluded;
• Shields are excluded;

So if you want to pile Delta-Amyloid on a normal Armor Leather Jacket (2/2), that's fine by me; congratulations, you have a (5/3) leather jacket.

Armor Jackets are 8/6, a LEATHER Jacket is 2/2.

So a D-A steampunk outfit with gel packs is the best outfit now (add FFBA and PPP of course)?

Steampunk, to my eternal annoyance, has always been the statistically superior outfit. So yes, adding mods that can be added to any of them still leaves it in the lead.

And yet I have never seen anyone use a Steampunk Outfit of any type in game. *shrug*

Derp!

So edited.

Well, there are a couple of reasons for that... but I think the primary one is that it's so. Damn. Stupid. To quote the rules (and /dev/grrl, who has at this point won my eternal affection) on the matter:

..... I like steampunk .....

To each their own I guess. Personally I think it looks silly.

Shadowrun as a whole is a little silly.

Silly? Shadowrun? Never!

Can't say Steampunk is any worse than runner groups or gangs that have distinctive apparel. But then, I really liked the group I was in that looked liked the fell out of the Wild West.

I like steampunk-lite. The gear vest in Attitude is way over the top. I do have a character with the steampunk set, but I'm thinking the primary armor for runs will be skinlinked color-changing, AR enhanced bike armor.

Bike armor is okay, for some things. Not so good for tactical minded characters, in my opinion. *shrug*

If you want to look like a Victorian, go for the far classier Mortimer's or A-J Reconquista lines.