Of course to understand the full story it helps to read things not written by an organized religion, or by one of its followers, but by its detractors. It should give a fuller picture of what is going on in SLC. The following links are just the tip of the iceberg on a basic search. I readily admit that some of these links might offend some people, and for that I apologize.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Mormons.html
http://www.cultwatch.com/mormon.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_pol...ister_beli.html
http://notamormon.blogspot.com/2006/03/jos...ith-rapist.html
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon451.htm
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joeseph...h_section1.html

None of those links are unbiased explanations of Mormonism. But rather heavily religiously based bias against it. Seeking to understand how a structure works as a bystander. You cannot be biased against the subject matter.
Now I can't find anything in those links that show of factually verifiable questionable practices of the church, just a bunch of people arguing who got the better divine truth.
As such... How is it relevant for this discussion?

The relevance is that it provides a gateway for individuals to do their own research, and it provides multiple biased points of view. If you don't know where to begin you are not going to be able to find anything unbiased about it, if that is what you want. The main things I was trying to point out is that Joseph Smith Jr. was an alcoholic, a con artist, and very likely a rapist, who used peoples vulnerabilities to essentially create a cult to his own personal glorification, and that is about as unbiased as I can get on the matter. My point was that so far the only viewpoint that has been expressed is one from a practitioner. To have a balanced view of it the negative view should be brought to light. I mean if you are really interested I recommend approaching it from a historical viewpoint, one which provides no support for any of his conjectures.

Lastly I stated that the links were by detractors of Mormonism so why would you expect them to be completely unbiased?

The legitimacy of mormonism isn't really relevant for this discussion, what is relevant is what a person in Salt lake city anno 2070 is expected to know. What values that are held in the region, the dominant forces, the political environment so on and so forth. As I understand it Mormons are pretty prevalent in that area and such their supposed view in the 6th world is relevant.

For the record the same things you said about Mr Smith can be applied to Noah.
But that aswell is not relevant in the 6th world.

But what the NAN and others believe won't?



Sure it might if I were doing a game in the Vatican, or Israel, or pretty much anywhere with a devoted religious following, based on the bible.

Faelan, this is a civil discussion about what we think could happen to Salt Lake City in the next 60-odd years. If you have something you'd like to contribute to that discussion, then feel free to stay here. However, if all you wish to do is continue to post inflammatory and biased links, please refrain from posting. No one in this thread has been attempting to convert anyone to Mormonism, all that has been asked are some questions about specific beliefs that have been answered in very specific and unbiased ways. I'm personally an ex-Mormon and I have been very good about keeping my opinions of the LDS church out of this discussion. I ask you to do the same before this devolves and gets people on both sides banned because discussing religion not in context of the game is not permitted by the rules of the boards.

Hate to break it to you, but you are not the only person who knows how to use google. Everybody with half a brain knows how to use it, and only a complete idiot would base his views about a religion on what a single guy told him on a web forum.
The point of this thread was what Mormons believe wrt native Americans and accordingly how they would probably get along with the SAIM/NAN. Your collection of links adds nothing to that, neither does it add anything else that somehow needs to be made known. All it adds is the potential this thread getting locked because it degraded into a discussion on who got the coolest imaginary friend.

Never said I was. Let's just say the last time I had to look up information related to the subject was years ago, and certain aspects were harder to find this time.



Sure I get that, and my point was that knowing what detractors say can affect how people view a religion. This leads to additional plots, subplots, and organizations if one chooses to pursue a campaign arc involving something other than corp vs. corp.

Regardless I apologize for even bringing up religion, I felt it was in a constructive manner, clearly I was wrong.

A reminder that item 4 of the terms of service is there for a good reason.

Much of the content of those links are inflammatory and do not contribute to this discussion.

Looking at the salt flats there's some potential there for eco-shamanism and some very upset salt(?) spirits

Near the lake there is a lot of tailings ponds from Rio Tinto mining operations. They'd be good for toxics too.

Isn't Rio Tinto church controlled?


Well, yes, but it IS the dominant aspect of the city, just as Islam is the dominant aspect of Mecca. Is there other stuff (like a hotel that looks like a grandfather clock)? Sure. Are there nice bars with great hommos and flat bread? Most probably. Is this what most of the city is about? Not quite. Even the Grandfather Clock Hotel is essentially about the religion that calls this city it's holiest (housing pilgrims, you see, because they got tired of tent cities that always burn and kill hundreds). Hence, most discussion about SLC needs to involve Mormons in some way.

Mostly sure it's not. It appears to be publicly traded, which as a rule, church-owned businesses tend not to be.

truth be told, most of the usable farmland in Utah is not land that would inherently support crops. the vast majority of it is usable because the early settlers set up an irrigation system by diverting/damming rivers, building reservoirs, etc.

it is, after all, smack dab in the middle of a high altitude desert.

i'm sure there's plenty that can be done with that ^^

Interesting things are stored in igloos at Tooele.

And I'd bet that the NAN grabbed those well before the Mormon church could. You do not give bio/chem weapons and/or research data (depending on who you ask what's in there) to anyone that aren't your people. Though I do wonder what happened to the church records vaults buried up in the canyons. That place looks like it's a second NORAD.

Why wasn't this mentioned earlier, I need to find out more about this perfectly in line with running interests location. Do they have top men guarding it?

Because I hadn't really thought about it? There's not much in the way of overt security from what I've seen (very little), it's just hard to get to, and the doors look like thick steel set into the surrounding granite. I doubt it'd survive a nuke like NORAD's supposed to be able to, but it'd take a while to get into. As to what's in there, and how it's secured, only people who know are the higher ups of the church and the people responsible for the location's security. And of course, they're not talking.

The Granite Mountain Records Vault, aka, "The Vault."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granite_Mountain_(Utah)

A bedrock'd facility for dry storage of records ... who's related to who, and how, in essence. The Mormons are *huge* into Geneology, and keep massive records on the subject.

Of course, it's only a fraction of the storage that the UA Archives keep, but it's very precise in what it holds.

http://www.uarchives.com/

Those guy's will put *anything* down there.

Including plot devices!

And, since this is Shadowrun, you can spin whatever else you like into being in there despite what the "official sources" say.

Kinda what I was hinting at

I have a friend who works in the US Government parts of the Underground, which is why I first had to go look stuff up about it. It's, like, the world's biggest closet. I don't want to call it a library, but, an 'archive' isn't quite right, either. Acres and acres of underground tunnels, filled with metal racks that hold white boxes that are filled with yellow papers, with theonly moisture being the breath of the workers (and that gets absorbed by the walls), so the stuff should be preserved for a few thousand years, barring the introduction of mice (Who, of course, might nibble some pages, but have nothing to drink, so.)

It's cool, but hard to get a good plot out of until you go to, like, Gamma World.

The first and second crash destroyed enough knowledge for this place to be interesting, actually.

Huh, hadn't thought of that. Yet more reasons for a 'run on the vaults.

Oh yes!

so wait...

nobody's considered the possibility that valuable 4th world documents are stored there? what is wrong with you people!

(well, in shadowrun obviously... irl, there are no 4th world documents to store...)

not to mention you could have other crazy things, like spirit formulas or true names, magical groups related to the church could allow members to store their thesis there... plus i'm sure paper isn't the *only* thing that preserves better in dry air.

(incidentally, there could also be other things stored there from ancient america... it's quite clear that the golden plates were returned to the angel Moroni according to Joseph Smith's account. it is less clear as to whether the *other* things that were entrusted to Joseph Smith were also returned. and as Mormons, we do believe that some day, we are to receive the full history of all of the 10 lost tribes of Israel at some point (well, not so much us exclusively i suppose, but that doesn't mean they couldn't *theoretically* be stored there as well, waiting for the right time)

Any tips on playing a freewheeling ex-Mormon from SLC? Cat's been in Seattle for 5 years - hitchhiked & sexed her way there at 14. Repressed anger at certain aspect of the lifestyle leading to acting out? Regional quirks of vocabulary or accent? Unconscious values she might not have shaken off yet? Adventure hooks? (a sister who wants out could be fun)

unless it's an actual polygamous colony (which i don't have personal experience with beyond the news like anyone else i suppose), leaving generally involves just not going to church any more and telling them you don't want to see anyone from the church any more. you might get the occasional visit from someone by accident (wrote down your address when they were your home teacher, look up old friends on facebook, etc), or just to check if you're still alive, but that's about the extent of it.

regardless, if it helps any, the *main* things that people tend to think of when they think "Mormon" would probably be the word of wisdom: no coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, or drugs. it also includes eating healthy (not eating excessive amounts of meat, eating grains, fruits, and vegetables, etc) but that doesn't generally get as much emphasis. also the law of chastity is likely to be a pretty big difference (basically: no sex outside of marriage, and be modest. the modesty part does technically apply to men as well as women, but most men's clothing doesn't cause problems... not so much for women). obviously, chastity isn't going to be her thing based on your description. not swearing is another common trend for most of us (though of course, nothing is going to be 100% across the board accurate). ironically, someone who is a member is probably one of the worst people for asking about the little quirks that make us distinct; we're surrounded by people who do those things, so we don't notice them as much. one quirk is that even people who haven't come to church for years and don't live the commandments often tend to think of themselves as still being members (with the exception of those who get hostile... i'd say the former is much more common than the latter, but when the latter happens they get *really* hostile). oh, and i suppose we are much more likely to invite others to learn more about the church, or come to activities, etc.

a few other trends: i'd say we're much more likely to be able to cook (from scratch) and do crafts, our vocabulary tends to include words most people don't use often (like "atonement", "sacrament"), and we have been using the king james version of the Bible (and the Book of Mormon is written with the same style of language) and probably will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. in places with a lot of members, people are more likely to get names from the Book of Mormon such as Nephi or Lehi (or in extreme unfortunate cases something like Mahonri-Moriancumer...), although most of those will be Men's names. Sarai and Abish are the only two that come to mind for women in the Book of Mormon... that said, i'm pretty sure if my parents named me Abish, i would never use my real name if i could help it. a very high proportion of boys in the church go through the scouting program, and similar programs are often made for the girls (at present, at least where i live, young girls in the church do not join the scouting program, although the scouting program in the area is co-ed so far as i am aware). she may have spent summers at young women's camps or at youth conferences. being from Utah, there are likely enough members still in the area for her to have attended other events such as "Especially For Youth" (abbreviated: EFY). many youth in the church also carry around in their wallets a shortened version of a pamphlet detailing the church's standards called "For the Strength of Youth". many adults continue this practice.

well, that's about all i can come up with for now. like i said though, if you're looking for stuff that makes us stand out, in this particular case you're probably better off asking someone who isn't a member of the church

I agree with what Jaid said, but really, I think she'd be more of a Seattlite than a Salt Laker. If she left at 14 and spent her teen years whorin' around Seattle, she would have picked up most of her current language and idosyncraces from the streets of Seattle.

To play her correctly, you'd want to first pick a reason why she left, which may or not be related to the church itself. That's where I'd start, at least.

What comes to mind for me, playing with the stereotypes and standard SR material on SLC: Being a rash 14 year old, she met someone online from Seattle and fell in love with him. Her parents weren't too keen on her shacking up with a non-Mormon in Seattle since she was betrothed (real Mormons don't practice arranged marriages) to a man (Brother Job, human) who already had an older wife (Sister Mary, a creepy Orc woman) who was going to show her the responsibilities of "taking care of her husband." Fill in whatever creepy sexual stuff you desire, although some sort of S&M (or B&D) stuff would work best. She said screw this, you guys are freaks and I love this guy, paid her way to Seattle to with the only thing she had (her body), only to find that he was actually trying to lure her up there to sell her into sexual slavery. Frying Pan into Fire, if you will. [Insert whatever you want here to fill in the next 5 years.]

She refuses to swear, never learned to like coffee (a sin in Seattle!), and never has had a "normal" relationship because she tends to be an Overly Obssessed Girlfriend. Her views of Mormonism are very skewed, mostly stemming from the fact she was part of a weird cultish branch, and she believes that Mormon men want nothing more than [insert chosen fetish here]. Because of this, she's strangely obsessed with sex and trying to find the one person who will make her feel safe and normal. She's a huge control freak, but trusts her team. She's tried to sleep with all of them at one point or another, just so she can feel out what kind of person they are, since "you don't truly know someone until you've fucked 'em good." Rejecting her polygamous upbringing, she's fiercely loyal to any lovers and considers cheating to be a mortal sin; but doesn't consider sleeping around while single to be particularly bad. And for some strange reason, she still prays to Jesus. (Mormons actually pray to God, but end prayers with "in the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen" since they believe he's acting as a sort of go-between for them. Dunno if you feel comfy doing that, though. Up to you.)

As for plot hooks, having a sister who wants out is good, whether it's a literal sister or a fellow church member. Also, having Brother Job come back to fetch his errant wife would make for an interesting time. Also, currently, Utah consumes more porn than any other state in the nation (Source: Here. Relevant table, page 217), so in the future, it'd make sense that the most conservative city in North America would have a voracious appetite for porn BLTs. If you have to be told what to do with that paydata, you shouldn't be running the shadows, Chummer. ^_~

Hah! Shows what you know.

This is somewhat surprising, given that religious groups tend to give that industry hell... But it also made my day.


Every scout I ever known that stuck through to the senior years is completely and irreversible batshit insane. They all have some degree of Pyromania, high levels of eccentricity, an unusual appetite for sex and drink like sailors. Gotta love them.
My friends explanation: "Anyone that stick through with the scouts to the senior years is to crazy to care what people thinks"

Some of those ideas are truly excellent; I'll probably use many or even most of them. One good source for this sort of thing is ex-Evangelicals talking about courtship culture (purity rings/balls/promises, courtship as a replacement for dating, very creepy). I have a cousin in Mississippi who was homeschooled by her fundamentalist mother who might be of help - she's a liberal atheist & plans to move to Seattle the moment she's 18. I plan to have Cat avoid alcohol & coffee, but use social drugs (eX, novacoke, bliss) occasionally. I figure disapproval of alcohol & caffeine would be more visibly present in SLC than disapproval of hard drugs since illicit drugs would be less visible/available & in such strict settings, "acting out" doesn't have to go very far to gain the thrill of the illicit. As a result, Cat has more hangups about alcohol, caffeine, and junk food than she does about harder drugs & btl's.

Cat is very smart (Int 5 Log 4), but she would have learned very early on to hide that from others. She's a good enough actress to pull it off (Con 1, Cha 3); as meek and submissive would just mark her as a victim in the big city, what would be a good mask to hide behind? She wants to be underestimated, to be the last person people would suspect of wrongdoing.

All Mormons have reverted to their polygamous ways according to canon.


Unsurprising. It's always the most prude, repressed people who have the most need for such a vent ...


Great ideas. Some more:
A sister reaches outt o her, trying to win back the lost child. Not that the sister wants out or anything. The family's just trying to make wight with her. Good luck convincing a paranoid, on-the-wire runner of this though.
A random encounter: two Mormon missiopnaries knock at her door. One she knows fromw ay back. Bonus points if this is on a job. Great way to introduce awkwardness.
She might also be called back on family business (death of mother/father/one of several siblings); whether genuine or as a setup of some kind. Unsure if Mormons would go that far though.
And finally, though I am again not sure if this would apply to SR Mormons (they'Re all LDS radicals, remember), there's always the possibility of some family member trying to permanently erase the stain on the family's honor.

Tips for playing the girl, coming from an outsider:

Nobody can ever truly escape their childhood. Behavior from that time stays with everyone for the rest of their life, for better or worse. The description you gave id that of an angry young woman who escaped a very restrictive environment. For one, she'll always see herself as a sinner, no matter how much she tries to wash her hands of the sexist social structure she left behind. Lots of self loathing below the surface. Ahe might also either try and live the exa<ct opposite of the Word, or try to 'keep the good parts', depending on how angry she is.

Also, keep in mind in radical LDS churches, marriages are often arranged, not made by courtship, for all I know.

I'd go with most Mormons. Mormons always have the ability to say no to callings and such, even though there is a bit of a social stigma to it. Since that kind of thing is usually taken care behind closed doors, however, only one or two usually know. I would assume that polygamy would be optional as well (it was before), and you would have a few monogamous freaks or a men that couldn't afford more than one wife and were never assigned more. Conversely, you'd have men who were perverts, liars, and/or looking for a "Sugar Mama" or three who would trap as many women as possible into their family. Mormons are okay with divorce, so I wonder how that would play into the logistics of polygamy.

In reality, FLDS polygamous marriages tend to be arranged because they tend to marry young, often below the legal age of consent.

As another set of plot hooks: I'd be willing to bet that there's a thriving business of extracting hot (or otherwise desirable) wives from one family to another. Also, among the really rich Mormon families, there's probably a lot of backstabbing between wives and children when the issue on inheritance comes up; re-writing Daddy or Granpappy's Last Will and Testament becomes a lot more important when you've got four families to spread the wealth between, not just two or three siblings! And, I bet if you really, really wanted to screw with your players, you could make a run based on Romeo and Juliette starring fueding polygamist houses where they're paid to extract a pair star-crossed lovers.

Edit: Tyro, you're actually pretty spot on about your assessment of drugs in the area. I like that idea, although I don't know if I'd ever consider novacoke a "recreational drug."

It's called "blood atonement" and was a thing in the early church. I can see it, especially with the "OMG so retro 1880" schtick they've painted the LDS church with in canon.

Talk about stigma. I bet some men are very keen to avoid this and will go to gerat lengfths to make the money to support two wives, even if just barely and having the family near starve. Saving face always is important in highly restrictive/reglemented societies after all.


And, taking this one step further, there probably is a thriving business importinghot/desirable women,. You can even make this look a lot less deplorable than it is - save poor women from being sold into sex slavery, converting them to proper ways, giving wayward girls god and a family. After all, the main effect of polygamy is that there need to be many more women than men for each man to get at least one partner. That, given human biology, doesn't work out naturally.

And probably, women shouldn'T travel alone near SLC. I can well see some misfit or unlucky young Mormons banding together to snatch a bride ... if nothing else, they might take up that custom from Native American myth.


Never understood the recreational value of coke either.


Well, Honor killings always make for good, easy plots. you can do bodyguard, escort/assist for the killer, investigate the aftermath, investigate the target and find out she'*s slated to be killed ... lots of opportunity there.

yeah, i ignore that.

the game doesn't have to be realistic, but it *does* have to be plausible. the vast majority of members of the church (apart from a few fundamentalist splinter groups) don't *have* polygamous ways to revert to, really... it hasn't been practised in the mainstream church for over a hundred years, and even back when it was practised, not everyone practised it.

it is about as likely for the church as a whole to revert to their polygamous ways as it is for you to suddenly decide that you absolutely must have the exact same job that your grandfather did because it's a family tradition. or rather, it would be more similar to if suddenly every single one of your grandfather's grandchildren made that decision, if your grandfather had several million grandchildren.

Novacoke lasts longer than cocaine. Some people really like to be jacked up, especially for sex - cocaine is a powerful stimulant.

Jaid, we've all already agreed it's silly and dumb for tons of reasons. However, the OP is playing in the cannon SR universe, so we have to go with what's been established. Don't let it bug ya.

Limited polygyny might be possible if it were limited to the ruling class. Number of wives based on rank, with most men having none. Stranger cultures have flourished in the past.

Funny, it would work perfectly fine if there was no expectation of sexual or legal fidelity, suddenly men can have several partners... But so could the women.

Actually, that's UCAS law.

What's UCAS law? (In any case, SLC isn't in the UCAS.)

No, it isn't, but polyamory is legal in the UCAS (you can basically register a civil union for as many partners of any gender you like, provided all are age of consent and yadda yadda). It was a reply to Lionhearted's post.

As a Mormon SLC'er, I would say that NAN1 gets it spot on. I don't see it playing on stereotypes at all. In fact, I would say that NAN1 has a subtle and sophisticated take on SLC society just like a lot of the Shadowrun background mythos. Sixth World SLC would totally be run by a group of "Elders", would be gun-control heavy, and would reinstate polygamy on a tightly controlled basis. Discrimination would not be explicit, but would be perfectly described as "it's kind of hard for non-mormons to get a job there" not a xenophobic redneck place. A lot of people assume that since mormons are mostly conservative that the church is thus not in favor of gun control. Not so. Surf the internet a little and you may see what I mean. You should remember that Provo (directly abutting SLC) is Ute's capital (or at least a major Ute city as far as I can recall) and therefore there would be a constant political tension. Mormon's couldn't stray too far from mainstream. Reverting to the old psuedo(?)-doctrines on racism would not happen. Too many modern Mormons find them repulsive, but polygamy would be definitely be reinstated and most definitely on a restricted level. I suggest that it would be a ceremonial thing, done only to bolster the doctrine of eternal marriage and then only done amongst the leadership. Don't really know about the background/ebb/aspect issue. Y'know Mormons believe that the Native Americans possessed great wisdom in ancient times and because of their bloodlines do and will play a major role in the restoration of the gospel and the ultimate second coming of Christ. Native Americans are even assigned a special tribe among the 12 tribes of Israel with special blessings and rights in the Mormon Zion theology. It is likely because of this arcane (yet widely known among the initiated) doctrine that afforded Mormons a special place among the NAN movement. The awakening would place an emphasis on religions' mystical beliefs. Further, Brother Brigham, for all his absolutism and authoritarianism, always went out of his way to stress that the Mormon settlers were "guests" on some level on Indian lands, if only in token speeches and sermons on the subject. Y'know Mormons believe that the garden of Eden is in Jackson County, Missouri (now part of UCAS?) and before the second coming the kingdom of God will be established there. The church has great swathes of land there (according to rumors) and private Mormon interests own much more. With the Awakening, a great number of Mormons would have undoubtedly assumed the impending millenial return of Christ and would have made some sort of exodus there. It's quite likely that Mormonism a la 2060 +- would have 2 capitals. Even if SLC was decimated, there would certainly be a lot of Missouri mormons who would likely help to reconstruct it?

To answer your question... ahem... SLC has always been an entrepreneurship mecca of sorts (mostly MLM, but some real businesses too). Megacorps would be doing their thing, but its much more likely that some local midsized companies which would be big employers locally.

Mormons would look at magic as a gift strictly disassociated with the priesthood. They have long recognized that such supernatural gifts can be bestowed upon women, non-mormons, and many races, even upon non-believers and even upon the "wicked". Miracles would still retain their place in Mormonism being defined as anything beyond the scope of human understanding which is performed by God or his servants for the benefit of humanity. Mormonism, contrary to much of Christian mainstream, embraces mystical powers on an individual level including such things as seer-stones (crystal balls), visions, ghosts and communion with the dead. There is even Mormon lore that bigfoot is actually Cain. The awakening itself would likely be viewed as a miracle.

I guess Shadowrun likes to emphasize stereotypes, but only when they are fun. I find it much funner to see Mormons as dynamic and complex in the Sixth world. Internal church politics makes for great intrigue and exploring the internal tension between bigotry and tolerance is much more interesting than having Mormonism be just another ultraconservative cult.