I am still struggling with this concept at making viable characters off standard BP.

I'm trying to make a well-rounded PC, a generalist (see my Russian ex-spy thread), and I'm coming up short on every angle at the standard 400 BP. Well-rounded stats turn me out to almost 300 BP for starters, and even dialing that back brings me to still around 240. Trying to buy up skills and skill groups quickly gets expensive for the variety I need, and then I run short on BP for knowledge, languages and gear.

Buying the SAME stats out of PACKS brings me down to an even 200 (Jack of All Trades). But looking at the skill kits afterwards, I find I'm quickly running out of points as well. To pick up a little handguns and automatics (veteran levels), plus some basic hand to hand (brown belt), and then I need to pick up sneaking/social packs, I'm SOL on anything for equipment and languages (of which I need to pick up several) and contacts.

There aren't enough negative traits in the world to make a good generalist viable.

. . .

Gear, I can probably deal with, as that will probably be procure on site, or from a working stipend by my boss. So, I could forego all but the most basic of firearms and maglock pickers, probably.

I mean contacts are going to run me up probably close to 40 points alone as a generalist spy... And to dabble in so many skill sets leaves me either a very bad spy (1-2 dice in everything I need), or ends up as a specialist, which was totally not the objective.

I'm of the "understanding" that PACKS aren't supposed to mix with general BP, so I wasn't looking at cheaping out on 300 points in stats in a 200 pack and then just buying up skills with the extra breathing room. That seemed an abuse of the system, right?

I'm not looking for an ubermensch PC, here. I'm trying to figure out how I had a mage who was throwing some 13 dice at manipulation spells last session... and now a spy who won't be throwing more than 6 for anything he does. Hardly seems like being good at what I do, no?

This has been something I've been tinkering and playing with for days, and I still can't make the numbers add up. Do I have a bad sense of scale or something for this new (to me) edition?

. . .

Also, are there rules for "language skill groups?" Like if I wanted to buy "languages of the balkan states" as an example, or "romance languages."

It's got less to do with a BP/PACKs/Karmagen difference, and more to do with a specialist/generalist split. It's easy to be great at one or two things. It's really hard to be viably decent at lots and lots of things; some of that's just the nature of RPGs in general, really, rather than being specific to this (or any) particular game.

What do you recommend? Specialization in a few things? Or throwing 2 dice for a skill rating on more things?

Also, can't think of too many RPGs that gave you the option to be a generalist. Now that I have it, I'm finding myself not terribly inclined to be one... But the group needs one to fill holes.

You can get a generalist character into the mix using Karmagen (750 Karma), but you have to be happy with DP's from 8-10 (specialties to 12 or so). My Generalist Unaugmented/Non-Magical Mercenary came out pretty well, with about 50 skills (Many in Broken Groups); with his focus skills (about a dozen or so, IIRC) in the 8-10 Base DP range, 3-4 Skills at 12 DP, and the remaining ones at 6-8 or so DP. At our table, that is pretty good DP's, overall. Maybe not as good as a Specialist at our table (12-14 DP in Specialty Skills), but it is nothing to sneeze at. Of course, his stats are average to just a bit above average (he is a Human), and he only has a SIngle Pass innately, but so what. *shrug*

Personally, I prefer the Karma system, with a few tweaks, for well rounded characters.
750 Karma, and either free knowledge skill points as in BP system or free connection ratings (Cha*2), AND metatypes costing Karma equal to their BP*(whatever you like, 1 or 2, usually), with special attributes not counting towards the 50% limit.

Either that, or 500 BP

I'm flipping through my SR4a book. Where are the rules on karmagen?

Whoops. In the companion
Basically, it uses the advancement tables for character generation. Upside: It also gives you a better way to gauge the character's scaling, as BP are not made the same when spent for different things (such as Power Focus 4 at character generation *sigh*)

*sigh*

Of course they are.

Maybe next time, then. I'll have to work with packs for right now, just for expediency's sake. I'll see about picking up the Companion tonight (hey, I thought everyone said it was a bad book?) and wondering if my GM will let me go back and tweak into what I want...

I'll have to do a lot of tap dancing to avoid using my 6-8 sized dice pools. Or I'll take a back seat, and supervise from the van. I suppose I can Morgan Grimes it up for a session or two.

I don't know why the Runner's Companion should be a bad book. Disregard the infected and it's perfectly fine (that's just a personal opinion. some people apparently love playing SR:The Masquerade)
It also has more qualities and a more detailed lifestyle system, an advanced contacts system and the possibility to play oddities such as free spirits, infected, changelings or sapient critters.
It's a good investment, IMO, and one of the books I'd cite as 'core'

400 BP is enough to make you either a decent specialist or a poor generalist. My players found that all of them were lacking a fair few pretty essential skills after chargen. Despite having pretty well rounded characters.

Personally I think you should narrow your focus a bit, being a generalist doesn't mean you need to know everything.
Avoid groups unless it's absolutely necessary and if you absolutely need a skillgroup consider having it at a lower rating, like 2 or 3.
For example, you could pick up Close combat but if you instead pick up only clubs you could have it at a higher rating and pay less.

You should definitely dial back on the contacts, 15-20 points tops. Remember that your contacts have contacts and you don't need to know everyone, just someone that does.

With languages you should generally only need 4 or so dice to carry out a normal conversation, good intuition should take care of that (which an ex-spy need anyway)
Remember that knowledge skills are 2bp per rating and you get your logic+intuitionx3 free BP
Otherwise there is always linguasoft.

Makes priorities with your attributes
Agi,Rea,Int are always worth your time.
Cha is only essential for faces or mages
Logic is only important if you want to build stuff or do magic.
Body and Will: Remember that they are more effective at odd numbers and basically useless for skills.
Str the great dump stat! there's so many ways to compensate for not having str.

and remember that for mundanes, gear is the great equaliser.

The thing I dislike most about the BP system (@400BP, that is) is that I never feel like I've made a well rounded character. I tend to not specialize (much, usually one core skill, though) and chose skills and attributes according to background. There is no playing around in such a constrained system if you want to be reasonably powerful as well :-\

What I like about 400 BP is that it does restrict in that way. Makes the progression you gain through playing actually feel meaningful.
Although it does screw over some archetypes (like TMs) pretty severely

I assure you, my progression always feels meaningful
Admittedly, it's just a matter of taste, though. It just doesn't feel like a proper runner to me, more like an upstart ganger. And I've played the Ork Street Samurai archetype from the street samurai catalog

400 BP is plenty if you don't consider an 8 dice pool as the worst thing in the world.

It's better than defaulting, and is above average.

8 dice going against 20 does kind of suck though.

When running a game the general scale of opposition the PC will be operating against is something I make clear up front.

That's a really good point. It also helps to see how the rest of the group is statted out.

well 400 BP is supposed to be the "new players in town", 500 BP represent the Veterans with more then one scar to their name.

Yes. And when I made characters in SR3 with the usual amount of BP, they already were, in average, seasoned runners who knew the biz, and with points left over to have some odd skills. In SR4, they are not, or so specialized that you think they're fresh from a cloning tank. At least in my opinion and feeling ... So, personal preference, nothing more

Anyways, I think this discussion has been had before, and I don't think it is of much help to the OP if we start reiterating it.
Your tips to make the most of 400BP are as viable as my explanation about my generally used creation system and very helpful, as opposed to that other discussion

BP are an input to a one time process that generates PC Dice Pools that are used frequently.

I don't focus on BP when describing chargen. I ask players to think about if they want the 1-3 dice pools they use most frequently to always, or most or sometimes win. Then we can look at the set of secondary dice pools.

You then have to factor in context. If you build a kick ass gun bunny, but the game never has situations that involve shooting, then that 20 dice Pistols pools really doesn't matter.

BP numbers are just small variable in a much larger complex system.

For the OP the answer I would have is to start with more BP, as that seems to be the type of game the OP is in.

I also agree to the rest of your post, but the above quote is very valuable, IMO.
That's why it leads, in my experience, to a much better enjoyment of the game if a group of players build their characters together with each other and the GM, or at least stay in contact during the process and are open to feedback

We have a face, a hacker, and someone templated off the ex-spec ops archetype. Everyone's new to the game but me and nominally the GM. He knows what he's doing running the game. I'm supposed to come in as a handler to try to fill some gaps and bring some new skills in (as well as to ensure loyalty).

Here's what I came out with for 400 BP. (The scenario is going to be tied closely with the Vory and the narco-trade in Seattle and PNW in general, so I dropped a few knowledge skills someone who [mostly] sat behind a desk in intelligence would have had.) We'll see what I'm allowed to do with karmagen afterwards, if anything. I've got a pool of karma to spend based on my last character who retired, but I won't spend it until I have the final okay from the GM about chargen.


Metatype: Human

Quality: Blandness

Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2
Charisma 3
Intellect 3
Logic 3
Willpower 3

Blades 3
Unarmed Combat 3
Automatics 2
Pistols 3

Pilot Ground 3
Pilot Aircraft 1
Pilot Watercraft 1

Etiquette 3
Negotiations 3

Language: English 3
Language: German 2
Language: Czech 1
Language: Polish 1

Perception 3
Shadowing 3

Computer 2
First Aid 2


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/2
Vory Boss 1/1
Black Market Vendor 1/1
Money Launderer 2/1

You're missing athletics skills. This can bite you, and fast. I'd save at First Aid, the piloting skills and put the saved stuff into attributes and maybe con or weapon skills, depending on the direction where you want to take the character. As someone else is playing a face, maybe even save on negotiation and etiquette.

And get some negative qualities as well

Looking over it:
I just entered this into chummer.
Without accounting for edge, I've got 130 BP remaining

Not sure about the languages.
You seem to have no Native language (which is free) and the rest aren't rolled into the free knowledge skill points?

It feels like you're missing points somewhere... Did you pay for the 1s in the attributes?
1 or 3 in body, 2 makes no difference for damage track compared to 1.
Language skills are knowledge skills.
Would you mind putting BP allocation next to the sections for easy of reference?

Cyberware/bioware can get you better stats for relatively few BP, and you'll want good stats as a generalist. Skillwires are also good for getting skills for fewer BP, but only if you have them at rating 4 (if I remember the math correctly, there was a thread around here a while ago). You probably want the expert system with that, considering how little it costs.

Karmagen will change the math on this some, but cheaper costs for lower stats and skills makes the trade-off worth it.

Russian is my native language. That's why I didn't list it. All the others were paid for using BP.

I have to run to my game now, but I'll show my GM the thread after, so I can correct any expenditure mistakes. I'm such an amateur... smh.



Item/Rank/BP Cost


Metatype: Human 0
Quality: Blandness 10
Body 2 20
Agility 3 30
Reaction 3 30
Strength 2 20
Charisma 3 30
Intellect 3 30
Logic 3 30
Willpower 3 30

Blades 3 12
Unarmed Combat 3 12
Automatics 2 8
Pistols 3 12

Pilot Ground 3 12
Pilot Aircraft 1 4
Pilot Watercraft 1 4

Etiquette 3 12
Negotiations 3 12

Language: English 3 12
Language: German 2 8
Language: Czech 1 4
Language: Polish 1 4

Perception 3 12
Shadowing 3 12

Computer 2 8
First Aid 2 8


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000 3

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/2 4
Vory Boss 1/1 2
Black Market Vendor 1/1 2
Money Launderer 2/1 3

Ah, that's why your points are off.
The first point in all the attributes doesn't cost anything. So you actually only payed 140BP for attributes, not 220 (that is, assuming an edge of 2)
Also, knowledge skills (and in extension, your languages) only cost rating*2, not rating*4 as you calculated, so there you have another batch of freed up BP

I recommend downloading the cummer character generator at http://www.chummergen.com/
It makes it much easier to click together the character and re-adjust

Tavarisch, you don't pay for the racial minimum of an attribute.
So a elf raising agility to 3 only pays 10 points.
Language skills are knowledge skills not active skills, so you got a whole bunch of extra points there.

Edit: Beat me to it Bannock
Edit 2: Point still stands you want odd values in Body and Willpower as it adds half your value rounded up for damage tracks

Facepalm.

I'll get these numbers cleaned up and reposted for an audit in probably the next day or two.

I would really consider linguisofts for this character. A rating: 4 linguisoft only costs 2,000 , and you only need a datajack to use them.

This makes 400, based on what you told me.

Definitely picked up the Athletics group, picked up a couple other skills (like Dodge), and then rounded up a couple of my contacts' numbers. I also rounded out my important stats to odd numbers, as advised.

My GM has told me, because of my role with the group (as a character and a player), I can build up to 500 BP.

There's a couple things I want to address before I buy up to 500. I picked the drive skills because no one in the group really HAS any to speak of. I know a little of the over-arcing idea about the plot: magic will be relevant, but not the be-all, end-all that we need a full-on mage (to the best of my understanding). Is adept, with my last hundred points (just one or two powers [perception, senses maybe?], and some assensing), worth my time? Or magician with a couple divination/detection type spells?

He's also letting me karmagen, to compare the final results (equivalent of 500 bp). I still need to read those before they try it -- he gave me some copies of it.


Metatype: Human 0

Quality: Blandness 10

Body 3 20
Agility 3 20
Reaction 3 20
Strength 3 20
Charisma 3 20
Intellect 3 20
Logic 3 20
Willpower 3 20

Athletics Group 3 30

Blades 3 12
Unarmed Combat 3 12
Automatics 3 12
Pistols 3 12

Dodge 3 12
Pilot Ground 3 12
Pilot Aircraft 1 4
Pilot Watercraft 1 4

Con 3 12
Etiquette 3 12
Negotiations 3 12

Language: English 3 6
Language: German 2 4
Language: Czech 1 2
Language: Polish 1 2

Infiltration 2 8
Perception 3 12
Shadowing 3 12

Computer 2 8
First Aid 2 8


(18 Free Knowledge)
International Travel Procedures 2
Vory Heirarchy 3
Russian Intelligence Heirarchy 3
Counter-Intel Procedures 4
Money Laundering and Bank Fraud Procedures 2
Narcotics Distribution Channels and Methods 2
Agent Evaluation and Review Requirements 2

Gear 15000 3

CONTACTS
Senior Intelligence Officer 2/3 5
Vory Boss 3/2 5
Black Market Vendor 2/1 3
Money Launderer 4/2 6


EDIT: Edge!! That's what I forgot! For a spy, especially a 'runner... I need to get at least 20 points free (maybe a couple negative qualities?) to get me about 2 more points of edge to pool me to 4... (EDIT2: Considering the role, maybe SINner? Not like the agency won't provide me fake ones when I'm, say, out on assignment.)

Mechanically, not a bad idea. Tell me, though, from a philosophical standpoint: Why? If you can't do you job without being chipped, especially as spy, why wouldn't all spies be chipped out so they can do robot espionage? There's a human element that machines just can't replace, right?

That seems rather... Simple.

Try getting some Negative Qualities so you can fill out the character more. Some examples would be: some addictions, maybe an allergy, and maybe Sensitive Neural Structure/System for changing your Blades and Unarmed into Close Combat group (it would only cost you another 6 BP to get a 3 in Clubs), maybe converting that Pistols to Firearms group, or maybe getting some specializations.

To expand on specializations: I'd rather have Driving 1 spec'd for Cars or Bikes than Driving 3, and you save some BP for it too. Same thing with weapon skills - I normally take like Automatics 2 or 3 spec'd for Assault/SMG/Machine Pistols rather than just leaving it at a 2 or 3. For a minimal investment of 2 BP you end up getting 2 more dice for your particular favored action (which is why they call it a specialization, after all).

Also, getting some negative qualities would also allow you to get some more positive ones. I'm not sure what books you have access to, but Runner's Companion has some other PQs that you may like, like Linguist.

You may also want to consider getting some augmentations - there are plenty of augments that would help a generalist out, like Muscle Toner/Augmentation (or really any 'ware that increases attributes), Skillwires, Reflex Recorders, and cybereyes/ears. That's just the core book too.

I really don't think you need 500 BP to make a quality generalist. You just need to know what general skills you want and how good you want to be with them.

EDIT:

The standard CIA agent has an implanted comm and that's it. Just speaking the language doesn't mean you aren't still the etiquette/negotiator who can also drive anything and is a crack-shot with pistols. If they need you in a country that doesn't speak the same language that you know then you're only 3,000 from speaking the language nearly fluently - no need to retrain someone else with your particular skillset. We're not talking about chipping your physical skills, just your language.

Also note that linguasofts have to be accessed with either a sim module or datajack, and sim modules can be accessed through trodes and an external machine.

I'm about to sound kind of dickish here, and I apologize for that, but...

Uhh, because it's Shadowrun, and the missing human element is kind of a given (for most characters). Corps and intelligence agencies don't care about the philosophical standpoint, they care about the bottom line.

With Pilot Groundcraft, you can just get the specialization from the core book "Wheeled" rather than "Car" or "Bike".

From a philisophical standpoint, I could see spies go either way. I think even a spy who favored knowing languages naturally would still have a datajack and some linguisofts, because there are only so many languages most spies could realistically know from learning them the hard way.

I think this character desperately needs some magic or some augmentations. Generalists are often so weak precisely because they don't take advantage of either, despite needing it even more. Dice pools of 8-10 in a lot of areas may not be optimal, but are functional at least. Dice pools of 6, though, don't really do much. Remember, this is a game where dice penalties for various things are common.

Karmagen would be good for this particular build because karma costs are exponential, rather than flat. At the low end, three's and under, skills and Attributes are cheap. Even with the base 750 karma, you would have a lot of karma left over to improve the character. Either way you go, I would get the influence skill group at 3 rather than the individual skills, which would save you points/karma and give you leadership: 3.

*gag*

Adepts with Linguistic power and Linguist PQ are amazing for this. Give me a few days with some trids that have been subb'ed into many languages and I will know every language ever.

SR4a
Runner's Toolkit

I might also have access to a copy of RC for the next couple of days, too. I'll page through that, in the meantime.

When is Leadership an applicable skill? It certainly makes sense for a character like mine, but, "You want your team to do follow your instructions. You roll leadership. The PCs... do whatever the hell they want."

Intimidate and other skills, I understand their use on opposing NPCs. But the core book didn't offer me many answers on how Leadership, while being good on paper, would be anything but a karma-sink in play?

I believe more info on the Leadership skill was put into War!, so you could pick up the PDF of that for that purpose (PDF being cheaper).

Leadership involves things like morale, strategy, and tactics, in addition to either exploiting NPCs who have accepted your disguise as someone of a higher rank, or taking charge in an emergency (getting a bunch of panicking people to exit a burning building in a relatively orderly fashion, etc.). As the general "Do what I tell you to do" skill, it makes sense for spies and faces to have it - although I would advise not to use it on other PCs, as that is stepping onto a minefield of potential arguments and bad feelings.

It doesn't have to be a karma sink. You get it with the influence skill group, which is still cheaper to improve than improving the other three skills in it individually.

Being mundane and unaugmented is a good way to get geeked, philosophy is useless when you're dead.
Also if you got a chip that let you speak fluent "what-is-this-language-I-never-heard-of-it" albeit stilted, why wouldn't you use it? It's not like were asking you to run skillwires through your spine. Although you probably should, on the street. Chrome is the great equaliser, get some and swallow that purist nonsense it will only net you a trip to the morgue.

*comes out of character* Personally I would spend a bit more on attributes, great net return especially if you're going for 500. with 400 160-200, with 500 180-240 (excluding edge) bear in mind that attributes are expensive to raise with karma.

The point is, that BP sucks for generalist. It is as easy as that.
The Karma cost still kick you in the nuts, but it is not as bad.

3 skill groups at 2 just cost you 60 BP, which is more 1/7 of your Points.
It would "only" cost you 60 Karma, which would be less than 1/10 of your Karma points.

Why? As goofy as it sounds, it is a viable specialization; even if I do choose Bike/Car myself.

It just seems about as cheesy as Elemental Strike (Sonic) or Spirit Bane (Watcher). There are things that even I don't do.

Which just shows that there are different tastes in what people won't do

To comment on the character as posted:
I agree with taking the influence group. As soon as you take 3 or more skills in a group it's cheaper to take the group. As it stands, you've paid 3*3*4 = 36BP for the 3 skills while the group with one skill 'free' would have cost you 30BP.
Depending on your GM, you might want to lose dodge. I know, there has been a lot of discussion about gymnastics dodge, but you can substitute that, basically only losing the ability to dodge with vehicles.

Edge is important. I would use at least 30BP (for a total of Edge 5) for such a character to equalize your ... average skills and attributes with the luck factor.
Apart from that, I agree with something the other people here said: Either use skillsofts or get linguist for a mere 5BP if you take this many languages It will allow you to use your rating 3 social skills at full rating when taking the language at 1.

When adding up to 500 BP, get better attributes, raise one skill to 6 or two to 5 and GEAR! Cyberware, Bioware, and / or magic will be doable, too.
Maybe raise your vehicle skills then, too. Another skill from the electronics group to consider is Data Search. It will allow you to utilize proper matrix legwork.
And if the BP get low, think about negative qualities There are a lot of flavorful ones for an Agent, such as records on file, SINner, etc. pp.

Okay... time to respec, probably from ground up, looking at what's going to be done, since I last talked with my GM about my background and what he might need for the campaign.

Former soviet military sniper (yes, I've been reading the "Hidden Snipers" thread) promoted out of the field and into more of a deskwork spy. "Tinker, Tailor" stuff where it's basic research, interviewing, shadowing, and some light B&E, and not so much James Bond can do everything. More a dual-ist now, than a generalist. I plan on being more of the desk spy/group handler than a sniper, though, so it's a very b-role for me.

Still looking at the "Blandness" quality and now an "Addiction, Mild" quality for tranqs, left over from his sniping days. "Linguist" will probably go on there, as soon as I find which book it's in. Going to run on light bioware, as it creates the lowest "profile" for someone doing fieldwork (as a sniper or a spy), and basic cyber (datajack, as recommended). Observational skills are still going to be huge, though.

With a dual specialty, now, I'm sure my expenditures will get much easier to choose from. Keeping these things in mind, what would you guys say is NECESSARY to accomplish my dual-focus in a competent manner? (I'm thinking ~9-10 dice makes for a "competent" pool, right?)

I'm guaranteed 500 BP if I need it, or karmagen (since I have the RC on loan, which I'll read up on tonight).

Might I suggest a long weapons skill in this case? Better yet, take the firearms group at 4. An orientation system wouldn't go amiss either, as headware.
I'd take high agility as well, probably 5.

In any case, your character as he is now (with tweaked attributes), already sounds like what you're looking for, minus long arms and electronics / locksmithing skills

And no money for anything except a bolt-action rifle with scope.

But 100 more BP will go a long way to picking up those firearms skills, edge, lockpicking and leadership, too. It'll also fetch me hopefully enough money for a good rifle with some attachments, as well as some basic bioware.

With all the recommendations for groups and specs, I was getting a little worried about having to start from scratch to get all the right points in place.

Have you tried chummer? Provided that you're running windows as OS

Mac user, for the most part. And work isn't too keen about outside programs being run on their equipment.