nope. Parry is about deflecting or stopping a melee attack with a melee weapon, block is about deflecting or stopping a melee attack with your own body, dodging is about not being where the attack hits - in SR at least. The rules do not make a distinction between deflecting and stopping.

The rules for fully parry only require a melee skill and not a melee weapon while a regular parry requires a melee weapon. Read into that what you will.

Block is only defined for unarmed combat as a standard defense and not as a full defense.

No consistency to say the least.

I was quoting from memory, it might aswell have been "one of the hardest..." his point still stands, the shin bone is harder then the bones in your arm.

Also, to be fair, most of the "blocks" in things such as karate were actually originally designed to be offensive in nature - they're nerve strikes. So yeah, a karate student would "block" the kickboxer's leg with his arm, and in doing so "charlie horse" the kickboxer, making him unable to effectively use his leg again.

Yeah. I did that to my mother once, when in play-frustration she kicked at me. Oops.

Guys,

Sorry for bring back the Gymnastic Dodge subject, but I am still a little confused. I am also an old DM/GM but long lost my password to these foruns... (hehehehe lurker detected).

This great post was very helpfull, but I need a litle bit more.

For the sake of simplicity, I would like to avoit the "reality works..." for the momment. I trained karate for many years and I watched enough fight movies to underestand that any "reallity-based penalty" to Gymnastics Dodge should (by the same token) apply to Dodge as well. If you watch Steven Seagal movies, you will see a LOT of scenes where he defends (blocks in game terms) against melee weapons (bat, club, sword, pipe, knife...). Usually he proceeds breaking the oponents arms, legs, but thats for another tread.

I also care for the writers intentions and game balance. I know that's vague, but when I smell weird imbalance/stacking I try to underestand whats the point of that skill/spell etc. RPG is not a competition between the GM and the players.

That said, what I find weird is this (Shadowrun 4ed FAQ):


What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 160, SR4A)?

Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics (if dodging) or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics (if parrying)

I underestand that if Dodge Skill its all about the defense (melee+ ranged) and Gymnastics Skill do others things and also works with Full Defense, it would be an imbalance if we allow Gymnastics Skill to do everything dodge does plus the jumping aspect. Both skills share a grey area, an intersection, right?

If thats the case, its reasonable that both skills add up at the same time, like in the previous "Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics (if dodging)" My gut tells me that something like "Reaction + (2x) Gymnastics (if dodging)" would make more sense.

Allow me to bring an example to see if I got this thing right:

Example Character relevant factors:

Reaction - 4(5)
Athetics Skill Group - 3
Unarmed Combat - 2
Syntacardium - 2

FULL DEFENSE:
Ranged Combat Full Defense: 3 (gymn.) + 5 (reaction) + 2 (synt.)=> 10 dice pool.
Melee Combat Full Defense: 3 (gymn.) + 5 (reaction) + 2 (synt.) + 2 (u.c.) => 12 dice pool.

REGULAR DEFENSE:
Ranged Combat "Passive": 5 (reaction, but dodge would not apply anyways) => 5 dice pool.
Melee Combat "Passive" Option A: 5 (reaction) + 2 (u.c) => 7 dice pool (no synt applies, right?)
Melee Combat "Passive" Option B: 5 (reaction) + 3 (gymn.) + 2 (synt.) => 12 dice pool. (I believe it's illegal under RAW, right?)

So agility never gets into this math, right? I believe what's confusing its Dodge is a Combat Skill and Gymnastics is Physical Skill. If we think for a momment, the only real diference its about game balance. And I am not shure would be reasonable to allow a Dodge specialization to Gymnastics Skill...I am not 100% shure about this one.

I would welcome comments... this silly simple matter is annoying me...

Site note: I am building a couple of characters at this momment and both will have Athletics Skill Group (one at 4, the others around 2 or 3), the first one is a Gunslinger Adept and the other could be considered a Face/Soldier "action hero" for simplicity. So I am actually (maybe) advocating against myself, but I enjoy fair play.

Edit: By the way, I see that many people are saying that they play Shadowrun for ages and never went to full defense. So you fellows are never using dodge, unless its for melee? Just curious...

Correct. The last option is not permitted. Gymnastics dodge can only be used on full defense.



You could permit it if you want. The list of specializations for skills is not exhaustive by any means and meant only to cover the more common usages.

By strict RAW this is not true. The list of specializations is only not exhaustive for some skills. Gymnastics is not one of them. It has a closed list of six specializations: Balance, Breakfall, Dance, Jumping, Parkour, Tumbling.
While the BBB allows the creation of new skills (including specializations) it does not allow the creation of new specializations.

Specialisations are general suggestions, not hard facts.

Also the gymnastics option is there so that not every character need to invest in dodge, it still has the unique full dodge option for melee combat to even it out.
(essentially making it so that you only need half the investment of any other option)

Can you prove it? AFAIK there is no mention that the choice of specializations is not exhaustive, unless the specific list is. (e.g. Escape Artis; Specializations: By restraint (Ropes, Cuffs, Zip Ties, etc.))

Indeed... Shadowrun FAQ...



Seems pretty self-explanatory to me. *shrug*
This has also been stated by Catalyst Officials, at one time or another, here on the boards, though my Search Fu is apparently not up to the task.

Page 118

"For a complete description of base Active skills and specializations, see pp. 121–128." Emphasis added. The list of skills and their specializations is only the base and consequently a non-exhaustive list.

While pretty reasonable for a change, the FAQ still cannot change rules or introduce new ones.

There is no Change... It is a clarification. *shrug*

Damned Double Post...

To create a Non-exhaustive list of Specializations would take so much word count that the rules would not include anything else. So they give examples. Do what you want, but know that your interpretation is not necessarily valid. *shrug*

Thank you guys, I really appreciate the quick answers.

My doubt was more in the lines of game balance. I do believe I can create specializations, I am ok with that.

My concern was if in this particular case it would be fair, considering that the specific skill (dodge) cleverly "forces" you to choose if you want to specialize. Ok, everyone will probably choose "ranged", but it's still a choice/restriction.

Now if I get Gymnastics with Dodge specialization, I am covering everything (combatwise).

I think my proposal for my GM will be use RAW (Gymnastics for melee is a no no!) and allow that specialization for Gymnastics (Dodge).

I am positive that if you allow that specialization and also allow Gymnastics to work for melee, it's a bye bye to the Dodge Skill. Personally I would hate to see a Shadowrun group composed entirely of jumping, rolling, tumbling power rangers . It would defeat the purpose of having more than one way of doing things.

Just to use an example: one of our friends will be playing an middle-aged (maybe old) hacker soon. A couple points in dodge would be fine for that character, but we would not like to see him taking gymnastics.

They never spell it out that the lists generally are only examples and the players and/or GMs are allowed to add others. IMHO the word base in the sentence StealthSigma quoted refers to skills, meaning all those skills and attached specializations explicitly mentioned in the book. The book even provides rules for adding new skills with appropriate specializations. It does not however allow adding specializations to those skills that have closed lists.

I'm not arguing that you should not be allowed to add new specializations to existing skills, I am merely pointing out that the rules do not allow it and as such the FAQ does something it is not supposed to do. So you may find a GM that simply says no to that house rule in general or more likely to a dodging specialization on Gymnastics in particular.

BTW the Synthacardium will not add dice to gymnastics dodge:
Gymnastics dodge is not an Athletics Test. It is a defence test with a dice pool modifier equal to the Gymnastics skill rating. For the same reason a specialization on Gymnastics would not work either.

Why not? middle-aged or old does not mean not in good physical shape or not skilled in sports. There are 20 something couch potatoes that are in way worse shape then some senior citizens. If however the player wants to portry an old couch potato with no combat experience, I don't know why the character should have either skill.

Which any good player will address. If the character is designed to mechanical perfection, there is no sens of character to me. If the character should have Dodge instead of Gymnastics, then that is how the character should be designed. *shrug*

How do you figure? In the case of the Synthacardium it is applying a DP mod to all skills under the athletics skill group.

Nor would it apply to jumping tests, climbing tests, running tests, or swimming tests. None of these tests are labeled "athletics". They simply use a skill that is part of the athletics group.

*Shakes Head*

I was not even going there, StealthSigma, but strictly speaking you are right.

Not to all skills in the Athletics group but to all skill tests involving skills of that group. A Gymnastics dodge is not a Gymnastics Test. It is a REA Test (Ranged Attacks) or a Dodge/Melee Skill Test (Melee Attacks) with a dice pool modifier equal to the Gymnastics Skill rating.
Any houseruled Gymnastics Specialization would not apply either because a specialization is e dice pool modifier and not part of the skill rating.

By your logic Dakka, all specialisations of the dodge skill is useless then?

Quite the contrary, the Specializations to the dodge skill work, because you can make dodge skill tests (Regular Dodge and Full Dodge) and thus get the dice pool modifier from the specialization. Specializations to the gymnastics skill however do not apply to Gymnastics Dodge because that is not a Gymnastics Test.

If you add your Gymnastics Skill, it is a Gymnastics Test. Therefore, any relevent Gymnastics specialty would apply.

Where do you get that?
This says nothing about changing the original skill test to a Gymnastics Test.

Says so right in your Post... Adds GYMNASTICS SKILL to their Pool. It is adding the skill, so therefore it is a Gymnastics Test.
It does not say add the Skill as pool Modifiers. No, it says add the Skill. *shrug*

Yes, it adds the skill to the dice pool. The dice pool is defined as Skill+Attribute. This Skill is not Gymnastics for any defense. Adding another skill (gymnastics) to that dice pool does not change the nature of the Test, unless explicitly stated.
Additionally since this modifier is neither an Attribute modifier, nor a Threshold modifier, nor a Skill modifier (which would create a modified skill rating of a single skill) it must be a dice pool modifier as per p. 61.

No it is a Skill, not a modifier; it is no different than adding Melee twice for Defense (in the case of Gymnastics you are adding two different skills). Melee Specializations add to the Defense roll, so should Gymnastics Specialties, if they apply.

Guess we have to agree to disagree then.

Do you add the melee specialization twice on a full parry?

Indeed...
No, because it is the same skill, and the specialty has already been applied.

How about Full Dodge using Dodge(melee)+Melee skill (used weapon)+REA?

Ofcource both specks apply.

As with Gymnastics Dodge, where does it say that adding a skill makes the original test a skill test of the other skill in addition to the first skill?

You are testing a skill that is part of the athletics group. Therefore...
<edit - begging the question, not leading into the next points>


Dodge + dodge would only get 1 specialization bonus.

Dodge + melee I'd say you can apply both only because the rules don't specify you can't AND melee is already suffering in the game.

A dice pool modifier does not have to apply to a skill + ATT test. What if you lack said skill? Then you simply roll ATT -1. Only the DP mod would still be added. Whether it be a smartgun link or a synthacardium bonus.

Where is such a requiment layed out for specs to apply

There you go:

And all Combat rolls using skills ARE SKILL TESTS of one form or another; So, There YOU go.

Spec only applies once for each spec because it is a dice pool modifier... that's like saying you add the smartlink or any other dice pool bonus twice.

If the pertinent skill is used the spec is added once as a dice pool mod. If you want something that applies to each time the skill is added... then you need a skill modifier (like a reflex recorder) which modifies the skill so you add the directly augmented skill twice to the test.

If you have two skills in the test. And both have relevant specs... then yes you add the different specs once each.


Dakka:
While I agree with the outcome of your line of reasoning I disagree with the logic. The dodge skill in particular has two specs... melee & ranged. Since there is no 'dodge skill test' it is only ever used on 'defense tests'. This creates a messy problem with your limited reading of skill test.

But that's mostly because I think the gymnastics skill is a crock and should be removed... and that the dodge skill should be the only skill remaining.

Are you trying to say that full dodge isn't a skill test even thought it uses not one but two skills in the test(potentially)?

Skill test can not be defined as anything other then "a test where the skill is used in", as doing so would break the system pretty badly.

A skill test is a test of one skill plus one attribute. Adding another skill as a modifier (which happens on melee Full Defense) does not make it a skill test for both (possibly different) skills, unless the rules stated that. So Full Melee Dodge would still be a either dodge test even if you used dodge (melee) + REA + melee skill (used weapon).

Even if you add a skill to a dice pool it is a dice pool modifier because it is none of the other three types of modifiers.

The same goes for Gymnastics Dodge. Adding a skill to an Attribute or skill test does not change the type of skill test, or make it a skill test.

@Mäx: What other complications do you see?

So you can use gymnastics with a dodging specialisations for ranged combat but not melee by your interpretation Dakka?

No, you can't use a Gymnastics specialization on either test. Gymnastics dodge adds the Gymnastics skill (as a dice pool modifier as per p. 61) to the normal defense test, which is either Dodge+REA or Melee Skill+REA or just REA. Neither of those tests become Gymnastics tests by the addition.

But you can a melee specialisation? (that explicitly lists parrying as an option) Isn't that contradicting yourself?

"Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can
spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of
danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against
either ranged or melee attacks."

Explain to me, exactly, where the book or any material stipulates that the synthacardium would not apply to this. Because there is no "Athletics Test" anywhere in the book. In fact, thanks to the wonders of Ctrl + F, I know for a fact that the only usage of that phrase is listed under the bioware entry. The rules, as written, do not state that I do not receive this bonus, and since I am using an Athletics skill. I leave the burden of proof on you. If you want to argue that gymnastics replacing dodge is broken or something like that, I get it. (After all, why should anyone take dodge when everyone should have some points in the athletics group and a synthacardium is so cheap).

For example gymnastics is added to damage resistance test to resist falling damage, by your ruling one wouldn't be allowed to add their Breakfall spec to that test.
And ofcource then theres the fact that exactly same thin you say about gymnastic dodge apply to full dodge with dodge skill, meaning the Ranged spec for dodge is useless.

I know there are more cases in system, but while looking for other example i ran into this tidbit in RC rules for Satyr Legs
"+2 dice pool bonus to Gymnastic Tests (including Gymastic Dodge Tests)."

Yes you can and no there is no contradiction. Normal parrying is a skill test (Melee skill+REA). To this test the skill rating is added if you use Full Parry. On either test you get the appropriate Specialization, exactly once, because in both cases it is a Melee skill+REA skill test the latter just has a dice pool modifier.

@X-Kalibur: Of course the simplest way to discount the synthacardium is to state that there are no Athletics tests. But even if you interpret Athletics tests as any skill test with skills from the Athletics group, you would not add the dice from the synthacardium to gymnastics dodge, because Gymnastics Dodge is not that kind of skill test. It is either a REA test with a dice pool modifier equal to the Gymnastics skill or a Dodge skill test with the same dice pool modifier.

@Mäx: True on both examples. I never said that the rules make sense or how the game is "supposed to be" played. I only state what they say.